Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday

[FKAS]

Well I suppose you have to give the lineout nause some credit for improving the lineout a bit and the maul defence a bit.

But as for everything else, if you think Ireland were anything but rusty then you must be Steve's Bestie. Basics eh- our tackling was shocking, even aside from Billy; our wide defence was shocking (we've defended narrow and hard for years, and its had questionable efficacy against teams that wise up); our ruck basics (we agree here) were shocking; our discipline- a basic basic- shocking; our passing, shocking; our kicking- Daly to touch anyone- poor to middling, and overdone in attack; our intent in attack, simplistic and inaccurate (albeit again, we agree, tricky on iffy ball, yet we kicked good ball); countering...nothing til Smith appeared in a dead game. But obviously, had the comms genius Genge been skipper, the breakdown would have magically cleared as the Irish definitely don't do that to anyone else .

If this was the start of a basics rebuild- 8 games in- we better hurry up before Argentina ream us.

A lineout so good it's generally considered one of the best in the world and Scotland couldn't get near it with the openside throwing in but we only improved "a bit". I know you are frustrated but I think you need acknowledge the improvement in some of the areas.

I'm not saying it's good enough, I'm just saying it's not the worst we've seen from England and that from a blank slate rebuild we are seeing some areas start to come up towards standard.

Oh I thought you were saying improvements in this game- the lineout has improved a bit since the 6N, having been good in the 6N. (was it not ok to good under Eddie though? I can't remember )

I reckon its not far off the worst we've seen in years, esp looking across the 3 matches. Its not a 'blank slate rebuild either' - same player group give or take, for a start.

It was not good under Eddie. Well towards the end under Eddie. The rolling maul defence being less than good in particular.

Also re the captain bit, I know you don't like Saints players copping flak but if you're the captain it's you job to talk to the referee and point out where the opposition are blurring the lines. Standing there like a mute whilst Ireland did exactly that repeatedly really didn't help.

[p/d]

Hold on. Just getting a glass wine and the cheese board out.
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Right all good.
Quick recap. We are crap but our lineout is feared across the world. We have seen a noticeable improvement but Lawes is a woeful captain. Our defence is poor but around the fringes it repels the world’s best. We are suffering from poor officiating at the breakdown and yet our discipline is atrocious. Seb Atkinson should have been brought into the squad (I added that)

As you were…

[p/d]

Damn. Forgot Glaws fan Banquo secretly loves Saints.

….is it time yet to mention club loyalty blurring things

[Oakboy]

If you take the 6N, the RWC larger squad camp, the 33 selection and 3 build-up games, that is a 6 stage build-process towards improvement. It is hard to discern anything significant. Discipline, mistake level and a failure to take chances were significant when SB took over and they still are. Set-piece structure might be marginally better. Defence remains poor. Attack remains almost non-existent.

I'm surprised and disappointed.

[p/d]

Defence remains poor. Attack remains almost non-existent.

I'm surprised and disappointed.

Dors, we have scored 5 tries in 5 games. Conceded 20, but let’s not focus on that. I think you underestimate our attacking verve

[Banquo]

A lineout so good it's generally considered one of the best in the world and Scotland couldn't get near it with the openside throwing in but we only improved "a bit". I know you are frustrated but I think you need acknowledge the improvement in some of the areas.

I'm not saying it's good enough, I'm just saying it's not the worst we've seen from England and that from a blank slate rebuild we are seeing some areas start to come up towards standard.

Oh I thought you were saying improvements in this game- the lineout has improved a bit since the 6N, having been good in the 6N. (was it not ok to good under Eddie though? I can't remember )

I reckon its not far off the worst we've seen in years, esp looking across the 3 matches. Its not a 'blank slate rebuild either' - same player group give or take, for a start.

It was not good under Eddie. Well towards the end under Eddie. The rolling maul defence being less than good in particular.

Also re the captain bit, I know you don't like Saints players copping flak but if you're the captain it's you job to talk to the referee and point out where the opposition are blurring the lines. Standing there like a mute whilst Ireland did exactly that repeatedly really didn't help.

I don't give a sh+t about Saints players getting stick, I'm not a Saints fan. You shouldn't judge others by your Tiger stripes. Of course the skipper has to what they can with refs, but as I said, Ireland do what they do very well and do it against everyone week in, week out- its up to the players and coaches to negate it with their ruck tactics and techniques. Neither Lawes nor Genge are obvious captaincy material frankly, save their intelligence 'fit'

[astralweeks]

Just been reading the various ratings of the England players, and most of them do not rate anybody much above 5. Except for Owen Farrell who gets a solid 9 from all the pundits.

[FKAS]

Oh I thought you were saying improvements in this game- the lineout has improved a bit since the 6N, having been good in the 6N. (was it not ok to good under Eddie though? I can't remember )

I reckon its not far off the worst we've seen in years, esp looking across the 3 matches. Its not a 'blank slate rebuild either' - same player group give or take, for a start.

It was not good under Eddie. Well towards the end under Eddie. The rolling maul defence being less than good in particular.

Also re the captain bit, I know you don't like Saints players copping flak but if you're the captain it's you job to talk to the referee and point out where the opposition are blurring the lines. Standing there like a mute whilst Ireland did exactly that repeatedly really didn't help.

I don't give a sh+t about Saints players getting stick, I'm not a Saints fan. You shouldn't judge others by your Tiger stripes. Of course the skipper has to what they can with refs, but as I said, Ireland do what they do very well and do it against everyone week in, week out- its up to the players and coaches to negate it with their ruck tactics and techniques. Neither Lawes nor Genge are obvious captaincy material frankly, save their intelligence 'fit'

Yes not touchy at all.

It's between Genge and Lawes because they were the selected vice captains.

[Banquo]

It was not good under Eddie. Well towards the end under Eddie. The rolling maul defence being less than good in particular.

Also re the captain bit, I know you don't like Saints players copping flak but if you're the captain it's you job to talk to the referee and point out where the opposition are blurring the lines. Standing there like a mute whilst Ireland did exactly that repeatedly really didn't help.

I don't give a sh+t about Saints players getting stick, I'm not a Saints fan. You shouldn't judge others by your Tiger stripes. Of course the skipper has to what they can with refs, but as I said, Ireland do what they do very well and do it against everyone week in, week out- its up to the players and coaches to negate it with their ruck tactics and techniques. Neither Lawes nor Genge are obvious captaincy material frankly, save their intelligence 'fit'

Yes not touchy at all.

only weary of your stripy love ins. And I really dont support saints, tho your dislike is obvious if explicable.

appointing those two seems indicative of much, with faz up front.

[fivepointer]

If we were playing well the captaincy wouldnt be an issue. I'm not fussed whether its Genge or Lawes, and accept that if Farrell plays its going to be him. Not ideal but we're stuck with it.

Of more concern is just how slowly we're playing. Conditioning will be aiming to get us to peak on 9 September but shouldnt our players be looking just a bit sharper and quicker now?

[Oakboy]

If we were playing well the captaincy wouldnt be an issue. I'm not fussed whether its Genge or Lawes, and accept that if Farrell plays its going to be him. Not ideal but we're stuck with it.

Of more concern is just how slowly we're playing. Conditioning will be aiming to get us to peak on 9 September but shouldn't our players be looking just a bit sharper and quicker now?

Gatland commented on this after the Cardiff game earning little credit. One or two are obviously short of match fitness. It's another disadvantage of picking players recovering from injury. I suppose iffy preparation/conditioning is OK for a player or two in a confident, winning outfit. We are neither.

[Mellsblue]

I blame Aled Walters. Apols if you haven’t heard of him…

[FKAS]

If we were playing well the captaincy wouldnt be an issue. I'm not fussed whether its Genge or Lawes, and accept that if Farrell plays its going to be him. Not ideal but we're stuck with it.

Of more concern is just how slowly we're playing. Conditioning will be aiming to get us to peak on 9 September but shouldnt our players be looking just a bit sharper and quicker now?

We finished the last two games strongly. I don't think fitness is the issue. Some players under performing and our inability to secure our ball cleanly at the ruck. One of those under performing players has ruled himself out with the red card. Ben Youngs needs moving out and we might as well roll the Mitchell dice against Fiji to see if he can offer more than the veterans did yesterday, it's a low bar for him in all fairness. Having Curry back will also be a boost.

[Banquo]

If we were playing well the captaincy wouldnt be an issue. I'm not fussed whether its Genge or Lawes, and accept that if Farrell plays its going to be him. Not ideal but we're stuck with it.

Of more concern is just how slowly we're playing. Conditioning will be aiming to get us to peak on 9 September but shouldnt our players be looking just a bit sharper and quicker now?

It’s not even pace of play, it’s slow AND rubbish

[Banquo]

I blame Aled Walters. Apols if you haven’t heard of him…

Walking in the air IS a long time ago

[Cameo]

As an outsider, I don't think Borthwick should get much leeway on account of him rebuilding. Your attack strategy looks the same as under Jones at its worst. Only then, we kept being assured that there were tricks under his sleeve for the world cup.

I think you'll get to the semis and, after that, who knows, but the tactics are really dire to watch. And I don't get this nonsense that you don't have the players to do better. Yes, you don't have standouts in every position, but plenty of countries who play far more enterprising rugby have far bigger gaps. Whether it is the coaches or something else, there is something very wrong.

[SixAndAHalf]

My concern with Shaved Ballbag is his selection which has now given us issues in key positions.

He persisted with Dombrandt throughout the Six Nations when it was pretty obvious to everyone else that he was not test level, then he has dropped him for the World Cup and with Billy V looking nowhere near ready plus getting a red we have a massive hole. Zach Mercer (and Tom Willis) are evidently a level above both.

At 9, Youngs was perhaps OK as an experienced third choice but now it looks like we are going to have to rely on him - Alex Mitchell clearly should start and then also Raffi Quirke / Gus Warr should have been given a shot.

I can't help but feel Gatland would have got a lot more out of this group.

[Banquo]

As an outsider, I don't think Borthwick should get much leeway on account of him rebuilding. Your attack strategy looks the same as under Jones at its worst. Only then, we kept being assured that there were tricks under his sleeve for the world cup.

I think you'll get to the semis and, after that, who knows, but the tactics are really dire to watch. And I don't get this nonsense that you don't have the players to do better. Yes, you don't have standouts in every position, but plenty of countries who play far more enterprising rugby have far bigger gaps. Whether it is the coaches or something else, there is something very wrong.

What do you mean by do better- more 'enterprising' isnt necessarily doing better, if you lose? If you mean being a more effective team, showing competence and being competitive against the top 4, then I agree we likely do have the players on their day to do that if really well coached. But you do need standouts in a lot of places to expect to be at the top table- and we have few. Funnily enough, I think a more enterprising approach would suit what I think is our best 23 players, even if skills and decision making under pressure be questionable.

[Danno]

I can't help but feel Gatland would have got a lot more out of this group.

I agree with many of your points, but wash your mouth out

[FKAS]

My concern with Shaved Ballbag is his selection which has now given us issues in key positions.

He persisted with Dombrandt throughout the Six Nations when it was pretty obvious to everyone else that he was not test level, then he has dropped him for the World Cup and with Billy V looking nowhere near ready plus getting a red we have a massive hole. Zach Mercer (and Tom Willis) are evidently a level above both.

At 9, Youngs was perhaps OK as an experienced third choice but now it looks like we are going to have to rely on him - Alex Mitchell clearly should start and then also Raffi Quirke / Gus Warr should have been given a shot.

I can't help but feel Gatland would have got a lot more out of this group.

To be fair to Borthwick, Mercer wasn't available for the 6N and TWillis was playing over in France so would have been an uncapped player only available in match weeks. Dombrant was the incumbent, knew the rest of the squad, available for all the training sessions and playing well for Quins at the time. The BillyV call up did smack of desperation though.

Scrum half has been an issue for a number of years. Quirke is made of glass, Care and Youngs are long past their best, Mitchell is well known for his mid game brain farts, Randall was tried but Eddie but wasn't up to it and JVP is a rookie learning in the deep end. I do think Gus Warr was unlucky though, form scrum half in the Prem last season, deserved training camp selection.

Gatland? No thanks. I didn't rate his crash it up, select the biggest team possible routine last time round and think Wales are going backwards under him.

[Oakboy]

I can't help but feel Gatland would have got a lot more out of this group.

I agree with many of your points, but wash your mouth out

But, your reaction to the suggestion that Gatland might have done better indicates how hopeless we have been, surely?

[Cameo]

As an outsider, I don't think Borthwick should get much leeway on account of him rebuilding. Your attack strategy looks the same as under Jones at its worst. Only then, we kept being assured that there were tricks under his sleeve for the world cup.

I think you'll get to the semis and, after that, who knows, but the tactics are really dire to watch. And I don't get this nonsense that you don't have the players to do better. Yes, you don't have standouts in every position, but plenty of countries who play far more enterprising rugby have far bigger gaps. Whether it is the coaches or something else, there is something very wrong.

What do you mean by do better- more 'enterprising' isnt necessarily doing better, if you lose? If you mean being a more effective team, showing competence and being competitive against the top 4, then I agree we likely do have the players on their day to do that if really well coached. But you do need standouts in a lot of places to expect to be at the top table- and we have few. Funnily enough, I think a more enterprising approach would suit what I think is our best 23 players, even if skills and decision making under pressure be questionable.

I mean both be more enterprising and be more effective.

I may be in a minority but I see them as both worthwhile in their own right. I agree there are many ways to skin a cat but even if England's current tactics were the most effective ones for their players (which they are not), I don't think it would be worth it.

[Oakboy]

Looking at SB's job from here on in, he seems to have made a rod for his own back with his selections in the warm-ups. Simply picking his best available starting XV for each game must have left him in a better place.

Now, the Fiji game seems more important whereas it could have been a chance to give non-starters game time. Dare he go into the Argentina match without building cohesion in his first choice group? Who looked the part against Ireland to merit resting? George, possiibly, but who else?

Even worse, might a few have lost their shirts? The two red cards and the three collective performances seem to have taken things forward not one iota in the positive sense. Maybe, establishing more who should NOT be in the Argentina 23 is all the progress SB has made.

[Mikey Brown]

I didn’t see the game, just 5 minute “highlights”, but it feels like with a team that good (on paper) it can’t really be that much about selection, can it? 8 and 9 are looking particularly dull but they can’t have just become completely useless?

Strategy and confidence just seem way off. Cohesion is important, but it’s not like that many of these players are actually new to eachother. It’s hard to imagine Borthwick has spun things around so drastically from Eddie’s time that all the familiarity is gone.

We just look uninspired. It will be very impressive if Borthwick finds a way to get the players looking motivated and confident again. There seems to be so little ambition in how we play.

[Puja]

I didn’t see the game, just 5 minute “highlights”, but it feels like with a team that good (on paper) it can’t really be that much about selection, can it? 8 and 9 are looking particularly dull but they can’t have just become completely useless?

Strategy and confidence just seem way off. Cohesion is important, but it’s not like that many of these players are actually new to eachother. It’s hard to imagine Borthwick has spun things around so drastically from Eddie’s time that all the familiarity is gone.

We just look uninspired. It will be very impressive if Borthwick finds a way to get the players looking motivated and confident again. There seems to be so little ambition in how we play.

I can't imagine you saw England doing anything if you only saw highlights of the game - should've just been 5 minutes of Irish play, no?

My one hope/dream/clutched straw is that this is all some ploy where we're still getting beasted for fitness and that explains the lazy play, the failures of basic skills at key times, the ponderous support play. I want there to be another explanation than us just being really shit, and that we'll show up perfectly tuned for Argentina and run them off their feet.

I suspect that is not correct though.

Puja