Puja wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:38 am
Can't blame investors for not being keen when the RFU won't give any commitments about funding, future structure of the leagues, intentions on the second tier. If there was a definite plan about a condensed second tier with MSC, an actual budget, and guaranteed promotion and relegation, then this wouldn't be happening today as Jersey would be an asset worth buying. As things stand, it'd just be giving money away without even getting the tax deduction for charitable giving.
Puja
Ironically, there's a showdown tomorrow on this and this was part of the letter sent by the RFU Council to the RFU board, that Moore wrongly slagged off.
Puja wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:38 am
Can't blame investors for not being keen when the RFU won't give any commitments about funding, future structure of the leagues, intentions on the second tier. If there was a definite plan about a condensed second tier with MSC, an actual budget, and guaranteed promotion and relegation, then this wouldn't be happening today as Jersey would be an asset worth buying. As things stand, it'd just be giving money away without even getting the tax deduction for charitable giving.
Puja
Ironically, there's a showdown tomorrow on this and this was part of the letter sent by the RFU Council to the RFU board, that Moore wrongly slagged off.
Investor fatigue is the issue.
That's to late though. Gross incompetence to be entering a season with no idea as to what next season looks like. No wonder investors aren't keen, the RFU have previous for screwing over the second tier and with no guarantees on the table they aren't going to put their hands in their pockets. Abject failure from the RFU.
Puja wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:38 am
Can't blame investors for not being keen when the RFU won't give any commitments about funding, future structure of the leagues, intentions on the second tier. If there was a definite plan about a condensed second tier with MSC, an actual budget, and guaranteed promotion and relegation, then this wouldn't be happening today as Jersey would be an asset worth buying. As things stand, it'd just be giving money away without even getting the tax deduction for charitable giving.
Puja
Ironically, there's a showdown tomorrow on this and this was part of the letter sent by the RFU Council to the RFU board, that Moore wrongly slagged off.
Investor fatigue is the issue.
That's to late though. Gross incompetence to be entering a season with no idea as to what next season looks like. No wonder investors aren't keen, the RFU have previous for screwing over the second tier and with no guarantees on the table they aren't going to put their hands in their pockets. Abject failure from the RFU.
Hence the term ironic.
You don't need to tell me its all wrong, given we are in the middle of it
RFU doesn’t want to commit… it’s already sold on ringfencing it’s just looking for enough excuses (clubs going bust) in order to justify it to those outside the prem… which isn’t the easiest thing to do.
Rugby is in terminal decline sadly in the country and I think it’s time to admit it.
Carter1989 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:29 pm
RFU doesn’t want to commit… it’s already sold on ringfencing it’s just looking for enough excuses (clubs going bust) in order to justify it to those outside the prem… which isn’t the easiest thing to do.
Rugby is in terminal decline sadly in the country and I think it’s time to admit it.
It doesn't need to be terminal though - we were in a much stronger position 10 years ago and there's no external reason why it can't go back there again with a decent plan and good leadership. I am hoping that this relaunch that they're planning for the 2024-25 season is going to be a proper sorting out - a calendar that's fit for purpose, a plan for marketing and advertising and drawing in investors, and either committing to binning off the second tier completely or (my preferred option) incorporating it and selling it as part of the relaunch with 8 or so teams with the facilities and capability of being in the Prem and with guaranteed promotion/relegation to make them an attractive proposition for people who fancy owning a sports club.
It's the uncertainty that's killing things. Who knows whether there'll be relegation, whether there'll be 10 teams next year, whether they'll be playing through international periods, whether the salary cap will double in a couple of years time. Everything being decided by the clubs squabbling with each other behind closed doors and the RFU either interfering too much or refusing to get involved.
Carter1989 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:29 pm
RFU doesn’t want to commit… it’s already sold on ringfencing it’s just looking for enough excuses (clubs going bust) in order to justify it to those outside the prem… which isn’t the easiest thing to do.
Rugby is in terminal decline sadly in the country and I think it’s time to admit it.
It doesn't need to be terminal though
8 or so teams with the facilities and capability of being in the Prem
Puja
If you look at the numbers playing in schools and M&J sections you might think it is. Difficult to get investors involved with those declining numbers.
Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:14 am
Jersey the next into administration if this is correct (and the Mail usually are). English rugby is the gift that keeps giving off the pitch.
Carter1989 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:29 pm
RFU doesn’t want to commit… it’s already sold on ringfencing it’s just looking for enough excuses (clubs going bust) in order to justify it to those outside the prem… which isn’t the easiest thing to do.
Rugby is in terminal decline sadly in the country and I think it’s time to admit it.
It doesn't need to be terminal though
8 or so teams with the facilities and capability of being in the Prem
Puja
If you look at the numbers playing in schools and M&J sections you might think it is. Difficult to get investors involved with those declining numbers.
As always, who are these 8 clubs?
As always, there are names I could suggest (resurrecting LIrish and Worcester/Wasps would get 2 that have brandname recognition, plus Ealing already have a keen investor), but it would ultimately depend on what investors could be coaxed in based on the RFU being willing to fund and support a second tier and commit to its existence and meaning for the long term.
The alternative to trying to drum up new investment and run a functional second tier would be to bin it off entirely, which I wouldn't favour and would be surprised if you did.
Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:14 am
Jersey the next into administration if this is correct (and the Mail usually are). English rugby is the gift that keeps giving off the pitch.
Weren’t they bailed out a few years back by the Jersey Gov’t?
Not sure, think they've had Govt funding at some point at least. Seem to remember they took steps to separate the amateur club and pro setup completely a while ago. Presumably in case of events just like this.
8 or so teams with the facilities and capability of being in the Prem
Puja
If you look at the numbers playing in schools and M&J sections you might think it is. Difficult to get investors involved with those declining numbers.
As always, who are these 8 clubs?
As always, there are names I could suggest (resurrecting LIrish and Worcester/Wasps would get 2 that have brandname recognition, plus Ealing already have a keen investor), but it would ultimately depend on what investors could be coaxed in based on the RFU being willing to fund and support a second tier and commit to its existence and meaning for the long term.
The alternative to trying to drum up new investment and run a functional second tier would be to bin it off entirely, which I wouldn't favour and would be surprised if you did.
Puja
Resurrections of dead teams, none of which have a stadium and training facilities, and a team with less than 1000 average attendance, and you’re still left scrabbling for another five teams to make up your eight.
I wouldn’t be in favour of it but I’m also a realist. I’d be in favour of four regional conferences of four playing an NFL-esque season with all players earning min. £1mil a year but I know it’s not affordable/sustainable/realistic. Given the news from Jersey, with all the noises saying it was a sensible and sustainable medium to long term plan, and Ealing being the death/change of heart of one man away from imploding, I’m coming to the conclusion that the Champ needs to be semi pro/amateur below a ring fenced Prem until the Prem and the RFU sort their shit out, ie forever.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 3:28 pm
If you look at the numbers playing in schools and M&J sections you might think it is. Difficult to get investors involved with those declining numbers.
As always, who are these 8 clubs?
As always, there are names I could suggest (resurrecting LIrish and Worcester/Wasps would get 2 that have brandname recognition, plus Ealing already have a keen investor), but it would ultimately depend on what investors could be coaxed in based on the RFU being willing to fund and support a second tier and commit to its existence and meaning for the long term.
The alternative to trying to drum up new investment and run a functional second tier would be to bin it off entirely, which I wouldn't favour and would be surprised if you did.
Puja
Resurrections of dead teams, none of which have a stadium and training facilities, and a team with less than 1000 average attendance, and you’re still left scrabbling for another five teams to make up your eight.
Wasps owner also owns a majority of shares in Atlas Holdings so technically he has Sixways whilst Wasps still own their training facility though I believe it's being rented to Birmingham City currently.
As always, there are names I could suggest (resurrecting LIrish and Worcester/Wasps would get 2 that have brandname recognition, plus Ealing already have a keen investor), but it would ultimately depend on what investors could be coaxed in based on the RFU being willing to fund and support a second tier and commit to its existence and meaning for the long term.
The alternative to trying to drum up new investment and run a functional second tier would be to bin it off entirely, which I wouldn't favour and would be surprised if you did.
Puja
Resurrections of dead teams, none of which have a stadium and training facilities, and a team with less than 1000 average attendance, and you’re still left scrabbling for another five teams to make up your eight.
Wasps owner also owns a majority of shares in Atlas Holdings so technically he has Sixways whilst Wasps still own their training facility though I believe it's being rented to Birmingham City currently.
In that case, when Wasps and Wuss actually become one club I will believe English rugby is saved.
Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:14 am
Jersey the next into administration if this is correct (and the Mail usually are). English rugby is the gift that keeps giving off the pitch.
Weren’t they bailed out a few years back by the Jersey Gov’t?
Not sure, think they've had Govt funding at some point at least. Seem to remember they took steps to separate the amateur club and pro setup completely a while ago. Presumably in case of events just like this.
Looks like a cycle of fine line finances over the last few years. 2016, 2018, post COVID (understandably) and now.
Regardless of how much of this is the RFU's fault (a lot), there's no doubt that Jersey have treated their players and staff abominably. I appreciate needing to keep secrets to avoid prejudicing investment discussions, but there's got to be a better solution than announcing out of the blue that no paycheques are coming ever again, two days before payday.
Puja wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:38 am
Can't blame investors for not being keen when the RFU won't give any commitments about funding, future structure of the leagues, intentions on the second tier. If there was a definite plan about a condensed second tier with MSC, an actual budget, and guaranteed promotion and relegation, then this wouldn't be happening today as Jersey would be an asset worth buying. As things stand, it'd just be giving money away without even getting the tax deduction for charitable giving.
Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:14 am
Jersey the next into administration if this is correct (and the Mail usually are). English rugby is the gift that keeps giving off the pitch.
Puja wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:38 am
Can't blame investors for not being keen when the RFU won't give any commitments about funding, future structure of the leagues, intentions on the second tier. If there was a definite plan about a condensed second tier with MSC, an actual budget, and guaranteed promotion and relegation, then this wouldn't be happening today as Jersey would be an asset worth buying. As things stand, it'd just be giving money away without even getting the tax deduction for charitable giving.
Puja
It's exactly the same as happened with Wasps.
Is it? Didn't realise Jersey had moved half the span of the country to buy a stadium at crippling expense with the intention of it being a long cash generating asset which would pay for itself right up to the point of Covid which torpedoed the whole thing and sent the club into a doom spiral.
As much as I like to criticise the RFU's ineptitude when it comes to organisation their impact on Jersey really sounds like the killing blow.
Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:14 am
Jersey the next into administration if this is correct (and the Mail usually are). English rugby is the gift that keeps giving off the pitch.
Weren’t they bailed out a few years back by the Jersey Gov’t?
They still were until yesterday. 370k this summer....
Being reading about the island’s plans to develop an entire industrial/business strategy around a new rugby stadium and its ancillary infrastructure. This is a massive blow to the island as a whole. Which begs the question of why they stretched themselves so much on wages in this financial climate when so far away from the end goal and with so little certainty that something so crucial to the end goal, ie promotion, was possible.
Last edited by Mellsblue on Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Weren’t they bailed out a few years back by the Jersey Gov’t?
They still were until yesterday. 370k this summer....
Being reading about the island’s plans to develop an entire industrial/business strategy around a new rugby stadium and its ancillary infrastructure. This is a massive blow to the island as a whole. Which begs the question of why they stretched themselves so much on wages in this financial climate when so far away from the end goal and with so little certainty something so crucial to the end goal, ie promotion, was possible.
Now whether this is a case of including even the academy guys on £50 a week I don't know but the Biljon the DOR at Jersey said the average salary for the players was £25k. You'd imagine the guys on that would possibly need another source of income if they've got a family.
Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:19 pm
They still were until yesterday. 370k this summer....
Being reading about the island’s plans to develop an entire industrial/business strategy around a new rugby stadium and its ancillary infrastructure. This is a massive blow to the island as a whole. Which begs the question of why they stretched themselves so much on wages in this financial climate when so far away from the end goal and with so little certainty something so crucial to the end goal, ie promotion, was possible.
Now whether this is a case of including even the academy guys on £50 a week I don't know but the Biljon the DOR at Jersey said the average salary for the players was £25k. You'd imagine the guys on that would possibly need another source of income if they've got a family.
They class themselves as professional and, from what I’ve read, were easily the second biggest payers in the league. £25k is a good wage in the Champ, sadly, even when all/most clubs were pro. So, it’s def a tasty average. Ultimately, you can come fourth in the Champ with a fully semi-pro squad, see Bedford, so why stretch yourself to compete to win a league when winning said league in no way enhances your long term plan.
I’m not absolving the RFU of any blame, btw, they have mismanaged (politely phrased) the second tier for over a decade.
Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:14 am
Jersey the next into administration if this is correct (and the Mail usually are). English rugby is the gift that keeps giving off the pitch.
Puja wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:38 am
Can't blame investors for not being keen when the RFU won't give any commitments about funding, future structure of the leagues, intentions on the second tier. If there was a definite plan about a condensed second tier with MSC, an actual budget, and guaranteed promotion and relegation, then this wouldn't be happening today as Jersey would be an asset worth buying. As things stand, it'd just be giving money away without even getting the tax deduction for charitable giving.
Puja
It's exactly the same as happened with Wasps.
Is it? Didn't realise Jersey had moved half the span of the country to buy a stadium at crippling expense with the intention of it being a long cash generating asset which would pay for itself right up to the point of Covid which torpedoed the whole thing and sent the club into a doom spiral.
As much as I like to criticise the RFU's ineptitude when it comes to organisation their impact on Jersey really sounds like the killing blow.
Wasps had a buyer that would have kept them in the Championship but they pulled out when the RFU wouldn't provide the assurances about the future of the Championship
