Where to from here?

[Cameo]

We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We are not a terrible team, we are just not nearly as good as the top 4. We don't really have that option anyway as we don't have the depth to dump everyone and bring in a whole new team of youngsters.

However, I think there are some key areas we need to find a way to improve on. To me those are mainly in the pack:

- Line-out- it's too wobbly in bit games. That should be fixable. Bring in whatever coaches or experts needed.

- Jackle threats in the forwards and backs - We just don't have enough. I like our props but to go to the next level we need Fagerson and Schoeman winning the odd (or more) penalty at ruck time. Same goes for our locks and our centres. Darge hasn't got many this tournament, but he's got the skills.

- Handling and carrying in the front five - We've clearly been working on competing physically and just about have, but when the top teams get going, their front five are big parts of that. I'm afraid we can't go on with a Gilchrist/Gray partnership. No doubt they work hard, but we need more dynamism. Skinner and Cummings might be the answer, they might not, but we if we are going to get better, there is clear room for improvement.

I know most of the above is in the forwards. Our backs aren't flawless but if we got a bit more from our forwards in attack it would make their job easier and mean we could consider simplifying a bit.

[Big D]

I think we have to accept that we are what we are and try and tighten up key skills where we can.

We still make stupid mistakes too. Trips, breaking off mauls early, playing too much rugby in the wrong areas etc.

Every position should be up for grabs (think Finn is probably safe) as no one really excelled.

[Cameo]

Our maul didn't get anywhere today and has seemed to struggle recently. That said, I wonder if it is being refereed differently. Not as many maul tries this WC as I would have expected.

I would like to think a lot of even our better players have been given work on- things they can add to their game. E.g. challenge Tuipolotu to become a jackaling threat

[Lizard]

If Scotland wants to get further in the next RWC, they should put most of their effort into lobbying for a saner draw system.

[Cameo]

If Scotland wants to get further in the next RWC, they should put most of their effort into lobbying for a saner draw system.

There's that, which is why I'm not viewing this as a disaster. I'm not going to suddenly assume that whoever gets into the semis from the other side of the draw is better than us.

But the fact remains we haven't even been close in our twi big games.

[Donny osmond]

Where to from here?

Probably round in the same old circles asking the same old questions and drawing the same old answers as we've been doing for the last 30 years I imagine.

[Catacol]

I think Townsend gambled on selection, and had Steyn, Harris and Watson started it would have been closer. But arguably closer would still have meant going out, so I get why he selected as he did. No point going down without firing shots.

Going forward our biggest issue is in the second row. Gray will retire soon if not now. Jonny Gray is solid but not world class. Gilchrist is a good pro but not world class. We need to find a world class second row from somewhere but other than bringing Henderson on and maybe taking a proper look at Hunter-Hill the cupboard looks bare. Cant win big tournaments without at least one world class lock - no team has ever done it and the big teams are all world class in that area. Needs big carries, big line out presence.

Without such a player 5th in the world is about as high as we can go. The back line will stick together for a few more years and on our day we will continue to win games, but to DOMINATE a tournament I think we are at our high water mark and will have to work hard to stay there.

Which means the focus - and I mean pretty much ALL the focus - has to be on the youth system alongside the SQ hunt abroad to find some young talent particularly in the second row and/or front five in general.

In the end depends what we want. We can be pleased with being 5th and defeating England and running the ABs close etc etc - or we can try and do what Ireland have done and break into the really big time. And - as they have done - this means absolute focus on the youth conveyor.

And finally - a third pro team? I have no idea what the finances are like but a 3rd team needs to happen if we are to challenge. Australia have shown that 5 can be too many. 3 or 4 appears to be the sweet spot. With 2 there simply arent enough starting positions to bring players forward and develop them.

[Cameo]

Yeah, two teams does hold us back. The time it takes to bring through promising young players is ridiculous. Having Price, Horne and Dobie at one club is a prime example.

I think we should remember to appreciate what we have. We've not won any tournaments but the wins it took to get to fifth are not to be sniffed at. It's just we haven't really got close when it matters or take the massive scalp at the top of their game. Repeatedly getting three wins in a 6N is just not as exciting as getting two one year and four the next would have been.

I'm deflated, not because we have underachieving particularly (though I did believe we would get closer to SA and Ireland) but because I don't really see how we do better in the foreseeable future.

That said, the next 6N might be a bit more open with some post RWC blues on display.

[switchskier]

Most of it's already been said, but a couple of thoughts:

- our defence is now a bit out of date. It's been very passive all tournament and teams are now finding ways to isolate forwards. We not putting pressure on and we're not generating turnovers, which doesn't play to the strengths of our players;

- agree that we're short a quality operator at lock. For me, neither of the Gray boys nor Gilchrist have ever filled their potential and Cummings is going down the same road. Good solid players all but I don't see the power that lets the flankers do their thing. It's the area where I always think that we're weaker than top tier opposition;

- of course the big reason that Ireland are so good is that they have so many good young players coming through into well run academics, whereas our U20's just lost to Kenya. Dark times are ahead I fear and I suspect Italy are going to get much better in around 3 years time. Someone in the SRU needs to do some real long term planning and sell that vision to the fans;

- finally, as a set of fans we leave quite a bit to be desired. I know that navy blue is iconic, but it is really hard to see in a stadium compared to any other kit - let's brighten it up somehow. Our national anthem is a dirge that's rarely sung with any passion and there are no chants beyond awkwardly elongating the word Scotland. These things have to grow organically, but other teams get more from their fans than we do.

[Mikey Brown]

It felt like we were in Ireland. Thousands kicking in to song moments before that first try was kind of amazing, and must have added to the gut punch.

It’s hard to picture a way we (or most teams to be honest) could replicate the Irish system. They are benefiting from an absurd level of funding and focus. But there must be more that can be done.

Fucking love flower of Scotland though. Not having the pipes is a travesty.

I couldn’t get over the fact that if the 6 nations were starting tomorrow we’d basically (bar retiring locks, Nel) be picking the same team. I really don’t know what else we do personnel-wise.

Are Ireland’s players that superior athletically or skill-wise? They are just so insanely well drilled. How do we possibly achieve that? Every moment that a player is out of place they find a way to contribute and then make themselves an option again.

[Big D]

I think Townsend gambled on selection, and had Steyn, Harris and Watson started it would have been closer. But arguably closer would still have meant going out, so I get why he selected as he did. No point going down without firing shots.

I'm not sure it would.

Our wingers barely got the ball early doors, certainly never got it in space across the park, Jones missed one telling tackle I can think of that Harris would have made and Watson hasn't been a turn over menace for a while.

We got done up front, the only forward who was OK IM was Dempsey and he wasn't amazing either. When you get done like that the backs have no chance.

[Big D]

I couldn’t get over the fact that if the 6 nations were starting tomorrow we’d basically (bar retiring locks, Nel) be picking the same team. I really don’t know what else we do personnel-wise.

Yeah we don't have many ready choices for 1-5 which is an issue.

Given Finn and Cam will be playing together regularly I wouldn't be overly shocked to see a Redpath/Tuipuloti centre partnership tried at some point.

[Donny osmond]

Are Ireland’s players that superior athletically or skill-wise? They are just so insanely well drilled. How do we possibly achieve that? Every moment that a player is out of place they find a way to contribute and then make themselves an option again.

No they aren’t- physically or skill wise superior. Rugby is won and lost in the top two inches and Ireland have found a way to get the top two inches of every player in the 23 making the same decisions at the same time. Usually the right decision, but even when it’s a wrong one, they collectively know how to recover. It’s amazing to watch and very frustrating as clearly the knowledge of how to get that cohesion is out there somewhere.

[Cameo]

- our defence is now a bit out of date. It's been very passive all tournament and teams are now finding ways to isolate forwards. We not putting pressure on and we're not generating turnovers, which doesn't play to the strengths of our players;

I have been wondering about this. We thrive off turnover ball, but that hasn't been our game this tournament. Until today, we haven't been being cut open, but just letting Ireland play is a bad idea.

Tandy has credit in the bank, but I hope he is thinking of how we need to change it up.

[BaldiePete]

I think this team has probably peaked which is depressing. I know we were screwed over by the draw and everything played out as per the rankings but our peak seems to be 3 wins in the 6N and dumped out of the RWC at the pool stages. Wales and especially England have been poor but they won their games which gives a massive boost to their confidence, whereas our confidence is bound to be knocked after failing to fire a shot against SA and Ireland. I assume that now we’re out we’ll start dropping down the rankings and it’ll be difficult to go back up again. I expect we’ll soon be back at our historical position of 7th to 9th. U20s are poor, so not many new players coming through. We’ll probably be ok for the next couple of seasons with the core of the current team but we need to find some new blood in the forwards.

[Big D]

Another disappointment is we haven't had anyone break out at this WC. No one put in performances where they looked to have a position locked down.

[switchskier]

I think this team has probably peaked which is depressing. I know we were screwed over by the draw and everything played out as per the rankings but our peak seems to be 3 wins in the 6N and dumped out of the RWC at the pool stages. Wales and especially England have been poor but they won their games which gives a massive boost to their confidence, whereas our confidence is bound to be knocked after failing to fire a shot against SA and Ireland. I assume that now we’re out we’ll start dropping down the rankings and it’ll be difficult to go back up again. I expect we’ll soon be back at our historical position of 7th to 9th. U20s are poor, so not many new players coming through. We’ll probably be ok for the next couple of seasons with the core of the current team but we need to find some new blood in the forwards.

I'd say that our historic position is 9-11th and that we shouldn't underestimate how far this team has come. It feels very different to four years ago. We're deservedly 5th in the world, there's just a big gap to 4th. But I agree that we need new blood in the forwards and U20's are a big cause for concern. Back row feels ok, but we only ever seem to have one or two prospects at prop or lock.

But the big question is who? Gray and Gilchrist have been the form players. Skinner hasn't really nailed down an Edinburgh short, neither have Skykes or Henderson at Leicester and they're both 23 now. Glasgow don't seem to have anyone on the horizon. In the props Walker night be ok, but not sure beyond that. Genuine question, in the absence of a generational talent, who is out there that it's worth putting into time now and accepting growing pains?

In some ways Darge was the biggest disappointment of this campaign for me. Not because he was bad, far from it. But because I hoped that this would be his launching pad to stardom and instead he did a mountain of work and didn't really get the chance to show off the plus things that he can do.

A bit concerned about Smith too. That little trip was daft, the grin when walking off after was dumb, but overall I'm just not seeing what everyone else does. Kinghorn stepped up, but I don't feel that we have a good alternative at 15.

[Mikey Brown]

Tandy has credit in the bank, but I hope he is thinking of how we need to change it up.

I feel like this is a big one.

We’ve gone round in circles a bit on the attack regarding going all out, running from everywhere, expending energy that could be better used elsewhere. Tried the pragmatic approach for a bit and then came full circle.

There is a balance to be found but I still think for the new cycle, even if that is post-Russell we have the players to run a decent attack.

The defence just feels way too passive and we can’t rely on it to wrestle momentum from a game. If conditions or whatever mean we aren’t getting the returns from having possession we still just go in to panic mode.

As with the wobbly lineout (not an easy fix I’d say) it’s notable how much this crops up in the pressure moments. It’s a mindset thing. The Irish players just think completely differently.

[Donny osmond]

Finn Russell is 31 now, how much longer do we give him/will he want?

[BaldiePete]

Finn Russell is 31 now, how much longer do we give him/will he want?

I can’t see him still playing at his current level by the time of the next RWC when he’ll be 35. At 31 he could choose to go anytime, he might have new priorities now he’s a dad and playing at a new club. I’d hope he’ll play on for a while yet but I think he’ll be gone in a couple of years. I suspect Watson might be retiring from international rugby soon, he tweeted what seemed very much like a retirement message a few days ago. Gilchrist, Gray (R) and Nel all likely to be gone soon as well.

[Mr Mwenda]

Finn Russell is 31 now, how much longer do we give him/will he want?

I can’t see him still playing at his current level by the time of the next RWC when he’ll be 35. At 31 he could choose to go anytime, he might have new priorities now he’s a dad and playing at a new club. I’d hope he’ll play on for a while yet but I think he’ll be gone in a couple of years. I suspect Watson might be retiring from international rugby soon, he tweeted what seemed very much like a retirement message a few days ago. Gilchrist, Gray (R) and Nel all likely to be gone soon as well.

Lions tour as last hurrah. He deserves to have a whole series at 10, rackon.

[Sandydragon]

I’d suggest you have a review of your captaincy. A Johnson or Warburton would have been in the ear of the ref after that first fry, just putting the seed of doubt in about blocking. It wouldn’t change the overall result (the point about only 2 teams is your biggest issue IMO), but in tight games a good captain is crucial.

[switchskier]

I’d suggest you have a review of your captaincy. A Johnson or Warburton would have been in the ear of the ref after that first fry, just putting the seed of doubt in about blocking. It wouldn’t change the overall result (the point about only 2 teams is your biggest issue IMO), but in tight games a good captain is crucial.

To be fair to Ritchie, he definitely was. And again about Kennan catching the ball and going into touch before (I think) the second try. But Ireland don't generally commit the same offence twice in a row.

However, does Ritchie limit us in the future? The back row is the one area where we have a few young prospects and fixing a slot for the captain seems to constrain us. I don't have a better candidate though.

[Cameo]

Are Ireland’s players that superior athletically or skill-wise? They are just so insanely well drilled. How do we possibly achieve that? Every moment that a player is out of place they find a way to contribute and then make themselves an option again.

I think it is both. A lot of them are better athletes or more skilful, plus their mental composure is unbelievable.

Sorry to keep coming back to the locks, but neither Gilchrist or Gray are anywhere near Byrne, Henderson or Ryan physically. That should be where a lot of your physicality comes from.

Skillwise, our hands are generally good, but compare how many of them are jackaling threats to us. There's a big gap. I feel like a lot of our players have a standout quality but theirs are a lot more well rounded.

[Big D]

Are Ireland’s players that superior athletically or skill-wise? They are just so insanely well drilled. How do we possibly achieve that? Every moment that a player is out of place they find a way to contribute and then make themselves an option again.

I think it is both. A lot of them are better athletes or more skilful, plus their mental composure is unbelievable.

Sorry to keep coming back to the locks, but neither Gilchrist or Gray are anywhere near Byrne, Henderson or Ryan physically. That should be where a lot of your physicality comes from.

Skillwise, our hands are generally good, but compare how many of them are jackaling threats to us. There's a big gap. I feel like a lot of our players have a standout quality but theirs are a lot more well rounded.

It's then whole tight 5 really. They just aren't as physical as the Irish.