SF v SA

[Banquo]

BTW, Marler was good Marler with his bants and attitude last night- this is quite funny

[Banquo]

Watching again and I just cannot understand how Kitschoff’s tackle to Courtney Lawes head wasn’t look at! We’ve had TMOs constantly engaging until this game when there is clear head contact and tumbleweed!

Happens at 24:26 with a replay showing absolute head contact.

I thought oof at the time, I’m guessing (but couldn’t remember) that it was that incident. No replay. Couldn’t hear any TMO communication either.

They showed replay on TV feed, pretty clear.

[Mellsblue]

https://x.com/alexmlowe/status/17160136 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

[Oakboy]

https://x.com/alexmlowe/status/17160136 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

Nothing like a bit of accurate grammar!

[Banquo]

just found this....ffs these journos

[Beasties]

The issue is our best scrummaging props are both pensioners in rugby terms and the next pair are better in the tight than the loose. Martin was the pick of our forwards for me and Steward from our backs.

Martin is also a hell of a scrummager to have behind you as a prop.

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

[p/d]

BTW- Daly was superb in the role he was cast in, as was Mitchell.

Sunday Times score England 105/150, SA 75/150 with OF as MOTM. LOlz

Kick charged down, aimless kick away on turnover ball and then a kick out on the full when we had penalty advantage. Throw in dissent and failing to orchestrate one attacking move.

To be fair great DG and landed the penalties

It just staggers me how low a bar journos set him.

[Beasties]

Did anyone else notice Earl completely blank BV at the end?

No. It is a remarkable scenario around the 8 shirt. BV selected as the only 8. T Willis omitted. BV red carded. Earl does a creditable temporary job in the shirt. Earl rises in standard and keeps the shirt. BV, for some bizarre reason, despite compelling playing standard evidence, gets the bench slot ahead of Ludlam.

We could drive ourselves mad trying to work out the selectorial process on that. It was nonsense from start to finish. Best to park it and move on.

[Banquo]

Martin is also a hell of a scrummager to have behind you as a prop.

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

Agreed, but suspect lack of tight head stability contributed to Genge's troubles, koch angle was pretty ludicrous tbh.

[Banquo]

Did anyone else notice Earl completely blank BV at the end?

No. It is a remarkable scenario around the 8 shirt. BV selected as the only 8. T Willis omitted. BV red carded. Earl does a creditable temporary job in the shirt. Earl rises in standard and keeps the shirt. BV, for some bizarre reason, despite compelling playing standard evidence, gets the bench slot ahead of Ludlam.

We could drive ourselves mad trying to work out the selectorial process on that. It was nonsense from start to finish. Best to park it and move on.

I can see the logic (once Willis et al weren't taken) - bulk carrying as a point of difference from bench, plus insurance if the scrum was being nudged and Earl struggling away from the base (where he was actually superb under pressure). The problem that Billy hasn't been Billy for a year +.

[Beasties]

No. It is a remarkable scenario around the 8 shirt. BV selected as the only 8. T Willis omitted. BV red carded. Earl does a creditable temporary job in the shirt. Earl rises in standard and keeps the shirt. BV, for some bizarre reason, despite compelling playing standard evidence, gets the bench slot ahead of Ludlam.

We could drive ourselves mad trying to work out the selectorial process on that. It was nonsense from start to finish. Best to park it and move on.

I can see the logic (once Willis et al weren't taken) - bulk carrying as a point of difference from bench, plus insurance if the scrum was being nudged and Earl struggling away from the base (where he was actually superb under pressure). The problem that Billy hasn't been Billy for a year +.

…and demonstrably so…
So why take him?

[Beasties]

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

Agreed, but suspect lack of tight head stability contributed to Genge's troubles, koch angle was pretty ludicrous tbh.

That was the first scrum that went that way after the subs. Koch obv thought Nche was gonna shove Sinckler’s head up his rse and went for it, nothing to lose. Sinckler standing his ground obv surprised all 4 props. Ref shouldn’t have penalised Genge but hey ho. Maybe if George had thrown that 5 yard arrow straight we’d have been a try to the good.

We came up short ultimately but it was a terrific performance all told. I’m not actually complaining. I’m still in shock that we can produce a performance like that every four years. Maybe we can move it up to twice every four years?

[Beasties]

What happened to Raggs btw?

[Banquo]

What happened to Raggs btw?

went to riches

[Banquo]

We could drive ourselves mad trying to work out the selectorial process on that. It was nonsense from start to finish. Best to park it and move on.

I can see the logic (once Willis et al weren't taken) - bulk carrying as a point of difference from bench, plus insurance if the scrum was being nudged and Earl struggling away from the base (where he was actually superb under pressure). The problem that Billy hasn't been Billy for a year +.

…and demonstrably so…
So why take him?

because he thought his club form was good enough and no other experienced 8's he trusted? As I said, I see the logic, not that I agree with the end point. 'sides, ask Slightly Blownaway not me

[p/d]

Game plan. Defend like demons, flood the breakdown put their line-out under pressure and kick chase.

Trump card BV on the bench whilst LudlAm set to run out next week in a pointless game.

[FKAS]

Martin is also a hell of a scrummager to have behind you as a prop.

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

He did pack down behind truly exceptional scrummagers during his career. He might have picked up a thing or two along the way.

[Mikey Brown]

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

He did pack down behind truly exceptional scrummagers during his career. He might have picked up a thing or two along the way.

I’m not sure lock is actually all that good a vantage point for understanding what the front rows are doing? I’m sure he could tell you it’s easier scrummaging behind Julian White than Tim Payne, for example, but Flatman is still the only pundit who appears to be able to make much sense of scrums for the viewer.

[Big D]

Martin is also a hell of a scrummager to have behind you as a prop.

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

Kitschoff has had a poor world cup by his usual standards.

The last scrum the ref decided that Genge briefly kneeling on the ground (his knee does go down on the engage) caused he and Koch to go in squint. Genge momentarily kneeling would have dropped his and Kochs outer shoulders causing a more dramatic angle.

[Big D]

Key moment for me was ignoring a huge overlap for Marler to hit it up then Farrell chipped through. Using the overlap could have put it beyond SA.

[Mikey Brown]

Key moment for me was ignoring a huge overlap for Marler to hit it up then Farrell chipped through. Using the overlap could have put it beyond SA.

IIRC correctly that was the one Arendse had well covered but then dropped it, prompting cries from Dallaglio of glorious game management by Farrell.

[Big D]

Key moment for me was ignoring a huge overlap for Marler to hit it up then Farrell chipped through. Using the overlap could have put it beyond SA.

IIRC correctly that was the one Arendse had well covered but then dropped it, prompting cries from Dallaglio of glorious game management by Farrell.

It was. IIRC it was a 4 or 5 on 1 if the passes go.

Although to be fair the key moment was probably SA hooking Kibbok after 30. He was very poor.

Some nations won't admit it but WR need a strong England and there are some good players to come in too. There are some exciting signs in some positions.

The staff can't fool themselves into thinking a good account on a rainy night against a team playing a very very limited gameplan provides the gameplan for the future. Kick, chase, defend with no variation won't work against those sides with any regularity.

[FKAS]

Key moment for me was ignoring a huge overlap for Marler to hit it up then Farrell chipped through. Using the overlap could have put it beyond SA.

IIRC correctly that was the one Arendse had well covered but then dropped it, prompting cries from Dallaglio of glorious game management by Farrell.

It was. IIRC it was a 4 or 5 on 1 if the passes go.

Although to be fair the key moment was probably SA hooking Kibbok after 30. He was very poor.

Some nations won't admit it but WR need a strong England and there are some good players to come in too. There are some exciting signs in some positions.

The staff can't fool themselves into thinking a good account on a rainy night against a team playing a very very limited gameplan provides the gameplan for the future. Kick, chase, defend with no variation won't work against those sides with any regularity.

Borthwick said after Tigers won the league he wasn't happy with the tactics and that he wanted to add more layers to the attack. I suspect it'll be the same with England. Get basics in place and strong first and then add to the attack from that base.

Actually having his attack coach in post should help with that.

[Big D]

IIRC correctly that was the one Arendse had well covered but then dropped it, prompting cries from Dallaglio of glorious game management by Farrell.

It was. IIRC it was a 4 or 5 on 1 if the passes go.

Although to be fair the key moment was probably SA hooking Kibbok after 30. He was very poor.

Some nations won't admit it but WR need a strong England and there are some good players to come in too. There are some exciting signs in some positions.

The staff can't fool themselves into thinking a good account on a rainy night against a team playing a very very limited gameplan provides the gameplan for the future. Kick, chase, defend with no variation won't work against those sides with any regularity.

Borthwick said after Tigers won the league he wasn't happy with the tactics and that he wanted to add more layers to the attack. I suspect it'll be the same with England. Get basics in place and strong first and then add to the attack from that base.

Actually having his attack coach in post should help with that.

I thought Wrigglesworth was attack coach? The Irish guy at SA is a defence consultant at the moment, is he going to be attack coach?

Honestly think you have a lot to be positive about if Bkrthwick can be a bit braver in selection.

[morepork]

Just get rid of Farrell and develop your form players.