SF v SA

[FKAS]

It was. IIRC it was a 4 or 5 on 1 if the passes go.

Although to be fair the key moment was probably SA hooking Kibbok after 30. He was very poor.

Some nations won't admit it but WR need a strong England and there are some good players to come in too. There are some exciting signs in some positions.

The staff can't fool themselves into thinking a good account on a rainy night against a team playing a very very limited gameplan provides the gameplan for the future. Kick, chase, defend with no variation won't work against those sides with any regularity.

Borthwick said after Tigers won the league he wasn't happy with the tactics and that he wanted to add more layers to the attack. I suspect it'll be the same with England. Get basics in place and strong first and then add to the attack from that base.

Actually having his attack coach in post should help with that.

I thought Wrigglesworth was attack coach? The Irish guy at SA is a defence consultant at the moment, is he going to be attack coach?

Honestly think you have a lot to be positive about if Bkrthwick can be a bit braver in selection.

Wigglesworth is going to be the skills coach. Felix Jones was the attack coach for the 2019 world cup at SA but then switched to defence for this time out.

[Beasties]

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

He did pack down behind truly exceptional scrummagers during his career. He might have picked up a thing or two along the way.

He’s yet to reveal it. Flats is the only pundit worth listening to.

[FKAS]

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

He did pack down behind truly exceptional scrummagers during his career. He might have picked up a thing or two along the way.

He’s yet to reveal it. Flats is the only pundit worth listening to.

Can't say I agree with that though I do like Flats.

[Puja]

What happened to Raggs btw?

Heartbroken by Wasps' demise, I believe. Said they were going to take some time away from the game and didn't know if they'd be back.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

The Irish guy at SA is a defence consultant at the moment, is he going to be attack coach?

I only worry whether he’s played enough rugby league.

[Which Tyler]

Come on, you know the answer to the last bit. It was not on script previously.

What I'd love to know is whether Ford's DGs were his own idea on the hoof. Then the coaches picked up on it for yesterday. Or did one of the coaches suggest it first?

There was an article after the Arg match, praising SB's innovative introduction of the DG into training, and how they'd trained for it.
IIRC the story was that SB had them practicing various scenarios, and one of them was attacking centre of the pitch, around the 22, all the defenders on their feet and in the line, but X England players in the ruck.
To everyone's surprise, Ford dropped back into the pocket and hit the DG.

It was ridiculous. All these claims about tactical masterstroke from SB, and training for DGs, and it came down to one incident of Ford going off-script for a scenario training drill.

[Oakboy]

Come on, you know the answer to the last bit. It was not on script previously.

What I'd love to know is whether Ford's DGs were his own idea on the hoof. Then the coaches picked up on it for yesterday. Or did one of the coaches suggest it first?

There was an article after the Arg match, praising SB's innovative introduction of the DG into training, and how they'd trained for it.
IIRC the story was that SB had them practicing various scenarios, and one of them was attacking centre of the pitch, around the 22, all the defenders on their feet and in the line, but X England players in the ruck.
To everyone's surprise, Ford dropped back into the pocket and hit the DG.

It was ridiculous. All these claims about tactical masterstroke from SB, and training for DGs, and it came down to one incident of Ford going off-script for a scenario training drill.

Interesting, thanks! I can't help wondering how good Ford could have been if Farrell had emigrated 10 years ago. Now, I hope both announce their international retirement gracefully. The team needs to move on.

[FKAS]

The Irish guy at SA is a defence consultant at the moment, is he going to be attack coach?

I only worry whether he’s played enough rugby league.

He's not played any rugby league, it's why he's got the attack job and not the defence job.

[rjjb]

Come on, you know the answer to the last bit. It was not on script previously.

What I'd love to know is whether Ford's DGs were his own idea on the hoof. Then the coaches picked up on it for yesterday. Or did one of the coaches suggest it first?

There was an article after the Arg match, praising SB's innovative introduction of the DG into training, and how they'd trained for it.
IIRC the story was that SB had them practicing various scenarios, and one of them was attacking centre of the pitch, around the 22, all the defenders on their feet and in the line, but X England players in the ruck.
To everyone's surprise, Ford dropped back into the pocket and hit the DG.

It was ridiculous. All these claims about tactical masterstroke from SB, and training for DGs, and it came down to one incident of Ford going off-script for a scenario training drill.

Interesting, thanks! I can't help wondering how good Ford could have been if Farrell had emigrated 10 years ago. Now, I hope both announce their international retirement gracefully. The team needs to move on.

Gavin Mairs suggesting Farrell will play a "key role" in the next WC cycle.....

[Mellsblue]

There was an article after the Arg match, praising SB's innovative introduction of the DG into training, and how they'd trained for it.
IIRC the story was that SB had them practicing various scenarios, and one of them was attacking centre of the pitch, around the 22, all the defenders on their feet and in the line, but X England players in the ruck.
To everyone's surprise, Ford dropped back into the pocket and hit the DG.

It was ridiculous. All these claims about tactical masterstroke from SB, and training for DGs, and it came down to one incident of Ford going off-script for a scenario training drill.

Interesting, thanks! I can't help wondering how good Ford could have been if Farrell had emigrated 10 years ago. Now, I hope both announce their international retirement gracefully. The team needs to move on.

Gavin Mairs suggesting Farrell will play a "key role" in the next WC cycle.....

Gavin ‘Night’ Mairs.

[Mellsblue]

Some in-depth analysis from Marler.
https://x.com/joemarler/status/17161702 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

[p/d]

Some in-depth analysis from Marler.
https://x.com/joemarler/status/17161702 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

It’s all hot air.

[FKAS]

There was an article after the Arg match, praising SB's innovative introduction of the DG into training, and how they'd trained for it.
IIRC the story was that SB had them practicing various scenarios, and one of them was attacking centre of the pitch, around the 22, all the defenders on their feet and in the line, but X England players in the ruck.
To everyone's surprise, Ford dropped back into the pocket and hit the DG.

It was ridiculous. All these claims about tactical masterstroke from SB, and training for DGs, and it came down to one incident of Ford going off-script for a scenario training drill.

Interesting, thanks! I can't help wondering how good Ford could have been if Farrell had emigrated 10 years ago. Now, I hope both announce their international retirement gracefully. The team needs to move on.

Gavin Mairs suggesting Farrell will play a "key role" in the next WC cycle.....

Hopefully as a kicking coach.

[p/d]

Interesting, thanks! I can't help wondering how good Ford could have been if Farrell had emigrated 10 years ago. Now, I hope both announce their international retirement gracefully. The team needs to move on.

Gavin Mairs suggesting Farrell will play a "key role" in the next WC cycle.....

Hopefully as a kicking coach.

Careful what you wish for

[Oakboy]

Interesting, thanks! I can't help wondering how good Ford could have been if Farrell had emigrated 10 years ago. Now, I hope both announce their international retirement gracefully. The team needs to move on.

Gavin Mairs suggesting Farrell will play a "key role" in the next WC cycle.....

Hopefully as a kicking coach.

You need somebody better at counting than him!

[FKAS]

Gavin Mairs suggesting Farrell will play a "key role" in the next WC cycle.....

Hopefully as a kicking coach.

You need somebody better at counting than him!

Buy him a stop watch for Christmas it'll be fine.

[p/d]

The substitutions are still bugging me. Enforced or pre determined?

Curry I get, 16 tackles, charging around like a lune and it looked like he was carrying an injury - plus SB got to see if Vunipola could keep the scoreboard ticking over for South Africa.

But Martin, Marler & Cole I don't get.

[Banquo]

The substitutions are still bugging me. Enforced or pre determined?

Curry I get, 16 tackles, charging around like a lune and it looked like he was carrying an injury - plus SB got to see if Vunipola could keep the scoreboard ticking over for South Africa.

But Martin, Marler & Cole I don't get.

two of those three would have been hanging at that point I'd think- we'll never know, but its quite likely that the Ox would equally have done a number on a tired Cole.

[Mellsblue]

Curry I get, 16 tackles, charging around like a lune

Curry is more of an orc than an arc, I’d argue.

[p/d]

The substitutions are still bugging me. Enforced or pre determined?

Curry I get, 16 tackles, charging around like a lune and it looked like he was carrying an injury - plus SB got to see if Vunipola could keep the scoreboard ticking over for South Africa.

But Martin, Marler & Cole I don't get.

two of those three would have been hanging at that point I'd think- we'll never know, but its quite likely that the Ox would equally have done a number on a tired Cole.

You are probably right. Still bugs me, especially Martin. If our pub team hooker can do 80 you would think……

[Puja]

The substitutions are still bugging me. Enforced or pre determined?

Curry I get, 16 tackles, charging around like a lune and it looked like he was carrying an injury - plus SB got to see if Vunipola could keep the scoreboard ticking over for South Africa.

But Martin, Marler & Cole I don't get.

Both Martin and Cole looked utterly shattered when they came off. I suspect that that they'd spent everything they had in the tank. Genge for Marler was probably tactical - he did add a chunk more in carrying when he came on and it was his burst that set up the Fazlet drop goal.

You are probably right. Still bugs me, especially Martin. If our pub team hooker can do 80 you would think……

I suspect Martin did a fair amount more work, both in the loose and in terms of pushing in the scrums, than George did.

Puja

[Beasties]

Gavin Mairs suggesting Farrell will play a "key role" in the next WC cycle.....

Hopefully as a kicking coach.

You need somebody better at counting than him!

And better at kicking. Bang average is not a target.

[Oakboy]

Why did Curry ever whinge to the ref? As I said when this was first reported any form of investigation/escalation will do the game no good. Now, 'everyone is rallying found poor Curry'. Regardless of the principles involved, he will be on the wrong end of crap for months/years to come. I don't know anything about him as an individual but I can't help suspecting that he must be thick not to have anticipated repercussions no matter how right he may have been.

[Mikey Brown]

Every time I've heard Curry talk I've sort of wished I hadn't.

[Banquo]

Quite interesting from the Times
England’s semi-final defeat by South Africa, by a single point, was a heartbreaker for them.

They did so much so well, playing almost perfectly as the pieces on Steve Borthwick’s tactical chess board. If you are English, you can revel in so many good moments rewatching that gruelling, gruesomely tense and captivating match.

For about 66 minutes England’s kick strategy was almost flawless. Their contestable high kicks caused South Africa so many problems.


Elliot Daly and Jonny May worked incredibly well from their wings, batting balls back that Alex Mitchell, the scrum half, or Owen Farrell, the fly half, had hoisted.

South Africa’s starting back three, of Damian Willemse, Kurt-Lee Arendse and Cheslin Kolbe, struggled — with several spills and fumbles.

England also had so much joy in the lineout, with Maro Itoje and Courtney Lawes combining to spoil four South African throws. George Martin and the back-row boys, Tom Curry and Ben Earl, were sensational too — Martin was particularly good when England disrupted the Boks’ formidable mauls.

However, for all their hard graft, there was a short period, around the 67 to 69-minute mark, in which England lost the game, all because they did not nail some tiny details.


You can highlight a couple of important moments earlier. For example, Farrell did not need to hold on to the ball for so long after the referee, Ben O’Keeffe, had awarded South Africa a first-half penalty.

He tried to convince O’Keeffe that South Africa’s scrum half Cobus Reinach “just pushed me, like I said [before]” having earlier asked the referee about Springbok overzealousness, only to be marched back ten metres. That gave Manie Libbok an easier kick at goal for South Africa’s first points, to bring the score to 6-3, 21 minutes in.

Billy Vunipola also dropped the ball with his first touch in his own 22, which led to South Africa winning and kicking a penalty to close the gap to 9-6 in the first half.

Later Jamie George threw one lineout not straight — to Itoje’s outside, left hand — when England were camped on the South African line, and 12-6 up after a fine Farrell grubber which Willemse had fumbled into touch.


And George then had another that slipped out of his hands, inside the South African 22.


England rode those moments, though, and found themselves 15-6 up with 14 minutes to go in the semi-final — and then lost. This is how they slid away in the Parisian rain.

In the 67th minute of the game, drizzle had turned to a deluge.

This may seem incredibly nit-picky — perhaps that’s what is required after a one-point match — but England could have decided to change their kicking strategy to close out the match.

Their plan to hit high, contestable kicks to cause chaos could have been altered as the momentum of the game had shifted at this point because of the introduction of Ox Nché and Vincent Koch.

The replacement props had started dominating scrums, first against a tired Joe Marler and Dan Cole, who were quickly substituted after a monumental effort up front, and then against the fresh pair of Ellis Genge and Kyle Sinckler.

Nché’s first scrum, 52 minutes in, hit England like a wave and won the Boks penalty.


George was popped up by the second scrum Nché was in.


So the perception was built that South Africa’s scrum was dominant. It was their way back into the game.

England persisted in kicking high, although not long and out of harm’s way, which allowed opportunities for the ball to be knocked on when the chasers tried to catch it in the air. That cruelly shot them in the foot.

Farrell’s latest bomb, in that 67th minute, was fumbled as Daly tried to catch it. The knock-on led to a scrum. The last thing England needed, now the South African Bomb Squad were on.


Could England have kicked deeper to South Africa, inviting them to run it from deep, to avoid the possibility of a knock-on and scrum? To the Boks’ credit, the pressure they put Farrell under for the above kick meant he had little time to kick deeper.

At the scrum, Genge collapsed and O’Keeffe awarded a penalty, which Handré Pollard walloped into the English 22. From that field position, South Africa scored their try.

Billy Vunipola was caught in no man’s land at the seam of the lineout. Deon Fourie, the hooker-cum-back-rower attacked that gap, then RG Synman — the giant lock — scored.


Borthwick did not reference this passage directly, but must have been talking about it when he reflected on Sunday: “As I discussed with the team and over these few months, as we start building our understanding of the game, is that everything is connected, everything has some sort of knock-on effect in some way, shape or form.

“What you’ve got to do is be tactically smart and adaptable. I credit South Africa with the way they have found a way to get a result from being down on the scoreboard. They found a way to get a result and they’re the No 1 side in the world for a reason.”

It was a horrible, savage lesson for England and their players. Every. Detail. Matters. South Africa nailed their little moments, when they needed to, and England did not. That is why they are the best team in the world, and have a chance to win back-to-back World Cups.

Pollard showed incredible coolness to slot the last penalty, to give South Africa a 16-15 win. The final scrum could have gone the other way, perhaps, but the damage was done ten minutes before.

It might be easy to say that with the benefit of hindsight, but that is the cold, hard reality for England.