Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Oakboy]

Lawes retiring gracefully just confirms the professionalism and dignity of the man. I hope his example is followed by quite a few more.

[FKAS]

Lawes retiring gracefully just confirms the professionalism and dignity of the man. I hope his example is followed by quite a few more.

I've already seen one article suggesting that Farrell will stay on so we're out of luck there.

[Stom]

So what's the core of the team going forward?

I have a horrible feeling we're going to see more of lukewarm man...

Genge is important.
Itoje, Chessum, and Martin have sewn up the lock spots, so it's a fight for that fourth slot.
Curry, Earl, Ludlam are good squad members, who gets the other spots? And who will be trusted as starting 8?
JvP will surely come back to join Mitchell, who will get the final SH slot?
I have a feeling we'll see the same FHs...sorry
Laurence and...yeah, centres not our strong point.
Freeman surely comes in to join Steward, and if Watson is fit, he'll be there.

That's 16, less than half the squad. That's one heck of a rebuilding job.

And it just shows how crap a job has been done with this squad over the past years. It was all built to this WC, and it all fell apart. Fair play to Stupendously Boring, he got some results playing like his name suggests, but we need some fresh blood.

[FKAS]

So what's the core of the team going forward?

I have a horrible feeling we're going to see more of lukewarm man...

Genge is important.
Itoje, Chessum, and Martin have sewn up the lock spots, so it's a fight for that fourth slot.
Curry, Earl, Ludlam are good squad members, who gets the other spots? And who will be trusted as starting 8?
JvP will surely come back to join Mitchell, who will get the final SH slot?
I have a feeling we'll see the same FHs...sorry
Laurence and...yeah, centres not our strong point.
Freeman surely comes in to join Steward, and if Watson is fit, he'll be there.

That's 16, less than half the squad. That's one heck of a rebuilding job.

And it just shows how crap a job has been done with this squad over the past years. It was all built to this WC, and it all fell apart. Fair play to Stupendously Boring, he got some results playing like his name suggests, but we need some fresh blood.

Theo Dan will remain and LCD will come back in from injury.

JVP isn't going to be fit until into the new year so the 6N will be 50/50 for him I'd guess.

[Stom]

So what's the core of the team going forward?

I have a horrible feeling we're going to see more of lukewarm man...

Genge is important.
Itoje, Chessum, and Martin have sewn up the lock spots, so it's a fight for that fourth slot.
Curry, Earl, Ludlam are good squad members, who gets the other spots? And who will be trusted as starting 8?
JvP will surely come back to join Mitchell, who will get the final SH slot?
I have a feeling we'll see the same FHs...sorry
Laurence and...yeah, centres not our strong point.
Freeman surely comes in to join Steward, and if Watson is fit, he'll be there.

That's 16, less than half the squad. That's one heck of a rebuilding job.

And it just shows how crap a job has been done with this squad over the past years. It was all built to this WC, and it all fell apart. Fair play to Stupendously Boring, he got some results playing like his name suggests, but we need some fresh blood.

Theo Dan will remain and LCD will come back in from injury.

JVP isn't going to be fit until into the new year so the 6N will be 50/50 for him I'd guess.

Dan will probably remain, yes, but it's not certain... And still, that's just one other spot in the squad.

I'm not sure LCD should...

[Mikey Brown]

Is Dan actually anywhere near third choice in his position though or was it just Borthwick’s confused mix of desperation and (for some reason) using a World Cup to give some apprentices a bit of exposure? I guess he must have impressed more than Walker, who has been very good since he settled in at Quins.

I like the look of him, I just don’t know how close he is to actually being ready.

[FKAS]

So what's the core of the team going forward?

I have a horrible feeling we're going to see more of lukewarm man...

Genge is important.
Itoje, Chessum, and Martin have sewn up the lock spots, so it's a fight for that fourth slot.
Curry, Earl, Ludlam are good squad members, who gets the other spots? And who will be trusted as starting 8?
JvP will surely come back to join Mitchell, who will get the final SH slot?
I have a feeling we'll see the same FHs...sorry
Laurence and...yeah, centres not our strong point.
Freeman surely comes in to join Steward, and if Watson is fit, he'll be there.

That's 16, less than half the squad. That's one heck of a rebuilding job.

And it just shows how crap a job has been done with this squad over the past years. It was all built to this WC, and it all fell apart. Fair play to Stupendously Boring, he got some results playing like his name suggests, but we need some fresh blood.

Theo Dan will remain and LCD will come back in from injury.

JVP isn't going to be fit until into the new year so the 6N will be 50/50 for him I'd guess.

Dan will probably remain, yes, but it's not certain... And still, that's just one other spot in the squad.

I'm not sure LCD should...

LCD is only 30 and a former B&I Lion. He may have injury issues currently but he's a good player that could see us through the initial transition period.

[p/d]

Lawes retiring gracefully just confirms the professionalism and dignity of the man. I hope his example is followed by quite a few more.

I've already seen one article suggesting that Farrell will stay on so we're out of luck there.

Sexton is 38. Do any of us really believe the greatest 10 that walked the planet is going to walk away from England, or SB is going to call time on his international career.

[Epaminondas Pules]

So what's the core of the team going forward?

I have a horrible feeling we're going to see more of lukewarm man...

Genge is important.
Itoje, Chessum, and Martin have sewn up the lock spots, so it's a fight for that fourth slot.
Curry, Earl, Ludlam are good squad members, who gets the other spots? And who will be trusted as starting 8?
JvP will surely come back to join Mitchell, who will get the final SH slot?
I have a feeling we'll see the same FHs...sorry
Laurence and...yeah, centres not our strong point.
Freeman surely comes in to join Steward, and if Watson is fit, he'll be there.

That's 16, less than half the squad. That's one heck of a rebuilding job.

And it just shows how crap a job has been done with this squad over the past years. It was all built to this WC, and it all fell apart. Fair play to Stupendously Boring, he got some results playing like his name suggests, but we need some fresh blood.

It is, but I don't expect as many retirements as some pundits think, and it provides opportunity for some real potential.

Likely both older scrum halves will be gone, so Quirke, Warr, Randall get a shot.
Probably say goodbye to Cole and Marler, so someone like Fin Baxter might get a squad shot.
Lawes has gone, but there's a number of backrowers waiting to push for spots.

Farrell, Manu are only 32, Daly 31. Likely May will bow out, be eased aside, not sure about the other three older players. I'm not saying I'd pick them, but I'm not sure we've seen the last of them. But maybe we see Kelly or Atkinson get their chance. Yes they'll be raw, but both have shown really form at 12, an d have a lot of potential given exposure to the top level. Joseph too at 13.

[Oakboy]

Lawes retiring gracefully just confirms the professionalism and dignity of the man. I hope his example is followed by quite a few more.

I've already seen one article suggesting that Farrell will stay on so we're out of luck there.

Sexton is 38. Do any of us really believe the greatest 10 that walked the planet is going to walk away from England, or SB is going to call time on his international career.

Believe - no. Hope and pray - yes.

[16th man]

Earl has earned the right to play at 7

By being effective as a fast carrying 8, whilst Curry did the 7 work?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Our first 6 Nations game is Italy away. If I were SB I'd talk about rebuild, just to help set expectations that we're going to start recreating. The go for something like.

Genge
George
Stuart
Itoje (c)
Martin
Curry
Earl
Mercer
Mitchell
Smith (M)
Arundell
Atkinson
Lawrence
Freeman
Steward

Baxter
LCD / Dan
Sinckler
Chessum
Dombrandt / Pearson / Willis / Ludlam etc.
Quirke
Ford / Smith F
Joseph

I know the backs haven't got tonnes of experience, but this is where we are, and frankly fuck it, I want to feel excited again.

[Oakboy]

So what's the core of the team going forward?

I have a horrible feeling we're going to see more of lukewarm man...

Genge is important.
Itoje, Chessum, and Martin have sewn up the lock spots, so it's a fight for that fourth slot.
Curry, Earl, Ludlam are good squad members, who gets the other spots? And who will be trusted as starting 8?
JvP will surely come back to join Mitchell, who will get the final SH slot?
I have a feeling we'll see the same FHs...sorry
Laurence and...yeah, centres not our strong point.
Freeman surely comes in to join Steward, and if Watson is fit, he'll be there.

That's 16, less than half the squad. That's one heck of a rebuilding job.

And it just shows how crap a job has been done with this squad over the past years. It was all built to this WC, and it all fell apart. Fair play to Stupendously Boring, he got some results playing like his name suggests, but we need some fresh blood.

It is, but I don't expect as many retirements as some pundits think, and it provides opportunity for some real potential.

Likely both older scrum halves will be gone, so Quirke, Warr, Randall get a shot.
Probably say goodbye to Cole and Marler, so someone like Fin Baxter might get a squad shot.
Lawes has gone, but there's a number of backrowers waiting to push for spots.

Farrell, Manu are only 32, Daly 31. Likely May will bow out, be eased aside, not sure about the other three older players. I'm not saying I'd pick them, but I'm not sure we've seen the last of them. But maybe we see Kelly or Atkinson get their chance. Yes they'll be raw, but both have shown really form at 12, an d have a lot of potential given exposure to the top level. Joseph too at 13.

I would not pick anyone who will not be on top of their game for the next RWC. Lots disagree with that which I understand. However, Farrell, Ford, Tuilagi, Daly are not (or no longer are in some cases) top international performers, IMO. The very worst scenario is keeping Farrell and Ford on for two or three years and then easing them out. SB, for optimum development-ceiling reasons, needs a new regime of on-field leadership that simply won't happen overnight. It needs nurturing and developing with, most vital of all, time to make mistakes and recover from them (i.e. a Dombrandt-type trial with time to then try T Willis for the same number of games etc.).

It should be Itoje's time. Build a new era around his captaincy and remove anyone 'senior' to him to give him the freedom to lead in his own way. Give it a year's trial.

[Epaminondas Pules]

So what's the core of the team going forward?

I have a horrible feeling we're going to see more of lukewarm man...

Genge is important.
Itoje, Chessum, and Martin have sewn up the lock spots, so it's a fight for that fourth slot.
Curry, Earl, Ludlam are good squad members, who gets the other spots? And who will be trusted as starting 8?
JvP will surely come back to join Mitchell, who will get the final SH slot?
I have a feeling we'll see the same FHs...sorry
Laurence and...yeah, centres not our strong point.
Freeman surely comes in to join Steward, and if Watson is fit, he'll be there.

That's 16, less than half the squad. That's one heck of a rebuilding job.

And it just shows how crap a job has been done with this squad over the past years. It was all built to this WC, and it all fell apart. Fair play to Stupendously Boring, he got some results playing like his name suggests, but we need some fresh blood.

It is, but I don't expect as many retirements as some pundits think, and it provides opportunity for some real potential.

Likely both older scrum halves will be gone, so Quirke, Warr, Randall get a shot.
Probably say goodbye to Cole and Marler, so someone like Fin Baxter might get a squad shot.
Lawes has gone, but there's a number of backrowers waiting to push for spots.

Farrell, Manu are only 32, Daly 31. Likely May will bow out, be eased aside, not sure about the other three older players. I'm not saying I'd pick them, but I'm not sure we've seen the last of them. But maybe we see Kelly or Atkinson get their chance. Yes they'll be raw, but both have shown really form at 12, an d have a lot of potential given exposure to the top level. Joseph too at 13.

I would not pick anyone who will not be on top of their game for the next RWC. Lots disagree with that which I understand. However, Farrell, Ford, Tuilagi, Daly are not (or no longer are in some cases) top international performers, IMO. The very worst scenario is keeping Farrell and Ford on for two or three years and then easing them out. SB, for optimum development-ceiling reasons, needs a new regime of on-field leadership that simply won't happen overnight. It needs nurturing and developing with, most vital of all, time to make mistakes and recover from them (i.e. a Dombrandt-type trial with time to then try T Willis for the same number of games etc.).

It should be Itoje's time. Build a new era around his captaincy and remove anyone 'senior' to him to give him the freedom to lead in his own way. Give it a year's trial.

I largely agree, though I'd be somewhat reticent to chuck the lot. For example I think Ford is worth keeping, same with George and Sink. I'm just not sure we'll see it.

And if we do lose / ease out a lot more of the 30+s, then it'll take time for things to bed in. Certainly in the backs. The pack less so.

[16th man]

One of the big positives to come out of the world cup has been Earls showing what a bit of speed and dynamism off the back of the scrum can offer.

Hopefully he'll have provided an evidence base to convince Smoked Bratwurst that there is another way to having a big bloke running straight at the line to try to tie in multiple tacklers, and we can stop trying a rotating cast of unsuitable players trying to replicate 2016-19 Vunipola.

If we're ditching Lawes, and Martin looks like he can do the Kruis job next to Itoje, rather than dicking about as a 4/6 hybrid, then a backrow of Earl, Curry, Mercer, Ludlum, Willis, with Pearson or even someone like Chessum being used as an extra bulk at 6 if needed, looks like a solid approach to building a unit over the next 4 years. Assuming Curry's body doesn't stand up to another 4 years, we need to get one of the other athletes to be as good a reader of the game.

You know what's crazy? Tom curry is only 25. I did not realise that, he must have had a tough paper round. You'd think he'd be about for 2027 though.

Like Watson, bits of him are 25, but some rather important parts are increasingly patched up.

He may well be able to more naturally reshape and adapt to another role in the backrow, but he's at his best when he's mobile enough to get in place to maximise his phenomenal ability to read the game. I'd question how much longer he can do that for at the rate he seems to get banged up at.

[Puja]

Wait, what? Sinfield's off? I thought he was a package deal with Borthwick!

Annoyed on several counts - we missed out on Forshaw as we'd picked Sinfield, and Leicester would've been in a better position had we been left with Borthwick's no2, instead of having to abruptly retire Wigglesworth.

If we get Shaun Edwards, I will revert my grump, but otherwise, this is just baffling.

Puja

Well that is fecking annoying. The Sinfield defence finally looks like it's coming together and he's off? Torpedoed Tigers season for this. Big step back for England.

Edit - The Telegraph article does only speculate that Sinfield might be off with Jones coming in as he's a currently the defensive coach at the Boks.

Looking at it, it does appear that the only source is the Telegraph article (which is confused about many aspects - thinks FJones is being hired as defence coach, think he was the SA defence coach in 2019, and that Farrell was fly-half in the 2019 final) and everyone else is reporting that the Telegraph have reported this. Appears to be nothing of anything, tbh.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Earl has earned the right to play at 7

By being effective as a fast carrying 8, whilst Curry did the 7 work?

You think he's a full time 8 now? Do you see it like the Savea situation? He performed very well, but he's still an open-side and will be playing there for his club. I'd be happy to see Willis/Pearson/Curry take his spot in the 23, as he's still really annoying, but he has played very well.

Curry was... fine I guess. He has a huge amount of credit in the bank, but frankly he's been using that up for quite a long time now. He hasn't demanded selection in the way Earl has in the world cup.

I still think the best we've seen from him was when he was at 6 anyway, but I wonder if the constant changing of roles (on top of a lot of minutes) over the last few years has stalled his progress a bit. It seemed like he bulked up massively to play 8 and now he does that Haskell-esque rigor mortis waddle, which seems less than ideal for an openside.

[FKAS]

On the initial announcement Borthwick clearly states that Jones is going to be working with Sinfield and Wigglesworth.

https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/fo ... 11278.html

[Stom]

Earl has earned the right to play at 7

By being effective as a fast carrying 8, whilst Curry did the 7 work?

You think he's a full time 8 now? Do you see it like the Savea situation? He performed very well, but he's still an open-side and will be playing there for his club. I'd be happy to see Willis/Pearson/Curry take his spot in the 23, as he's still really annoying, but he has played very well.

Curry was... fine I guess. He has a huge amount of credit in the bank, but frankly he's been using that up for quite a long time now. He hasn't demanded selection in the way Earl has in the world cup.

I still think the best we've seen from him was when he was at 6 anyway, but I wonder if the constant changing of roles (on top of a lot of minutes) over the last few years has stalled his progress a bit. It seemed like he bulked up massively to play 8 and now he does that Haskell-esque rigor mortis waddle, which seems less than ideal for an openside.

I think he was more saying that you can't say Earl should get the openside shirt if he's performed well in a completely different role...he would need to show he can perform as an openside.

[Mikey Brown]

By being effective as a fast carrying 8, whilst Curry did the 7 work?

You think he's a full time 8 now? Do you see it like the Savea situation? He performed very well, but he's still an open-side and will be playing there for his club. I'd be happy to see Willis/Pearson/Curry take his spot in the 23, as he's still really annoying, but he has played very well.

Curry was... fine I guess. He has a huge amount of credit in the bank, but frankly he's been using that up for quite a long time now. He hasn't demanded selection in the way Earl has in the world cup.

I still think the best we've seen from him was when he was at 6 anyway, but I wonder if the constant changing of roles (on top of a lot of minutes) over the last few years has stalled his progress a bit. It seemed like he bulked up massively to play 8 and now he does that Haskell-esque rigor mortis waddle, which seems less than ideal for an openside.

I think he was more saying that you can't say Earl should get the openside shirt if he's performed well in a completely different role...he would need to show he can perform as an openside.

Okay he's earned the right to get a go in the actual position he plays. Whatever.

Lawes is gone. Vunipola is hopefully done. We're restructuring the backrow completely anyway so I just don't see this being a big point of contention. Like I said I'm happy for someone to outperform him and play there instead, but his general play was a highlight of the world cup for England.

[Stom]

You think he's a full time 8 now? Do you see it like the Savea situation? He performed very well, but he's still an open-side and will be playing there for his club. I'd be happy to see Willis/Pearson/Curry take his spot in the 23, as he's still really annoying, but he has played very well.

Curry was... fine I guess. He has a huge amount of credit in the bank, but frankly he's been using that up for quite a long time now. He hasn't demanded selection in the way Earl has in the world cup.

I still think the best we've seen from him was when he was at 6 anyway, but I wonder if the constant changing of roles (on top of a lot of minutes) over the last few years has stalled his progress a bit. It seemed like he bulked up massively to play 8 and now he does that Haskell-esque rigor mortis waddle, which seems less than ideal for an openside.

I think he was more saying that you can't say Earl should get the openside shirt if he's performed well in a completely different role...he would need to show he can perform as an openside.

Okay he's earned the right to get a go in the actual position he plays. Whatever.

Lawes is gone. Vunipola is hopefully done. We're restructuring the backrow completely anyway so I just don't see this being a big point of contention. Like I said I'm happy for someone to outperform him and play there instead, but his general play was a highlight of the world cup for England.

I'm kind of with you. But I'm more of the opinion he's secured his squad spot.

Question is, alongside whom? Dombrandt, Mercer, TWillis?

[Mikey Brown]

Sure. We've got a whole load of premiership form and a reshape of the squad to take in to account before the 6 nations, but he is currently the only back-row showing any form and he is not a number 8 long-term, so I don't see any issue with my statement.

I'd hope/assume the pecking order is something like this?

6. T Curry / Ludlam / Hill
7. Earl / Willis / B Curry / Pearson
8. Mercer / Willis / Dombrandt

Maybe T Curry continues as an openside and we want a better jumper at 6, but something like that. Dombrandt appears to have fallen off the map completely but it will be interesting to see if he can still fight his way back in against two (immensely talented, but at the top level) untested 8s.

[Stom]

Sure. We've got a whole load of premiership form and a reshape of the squad to take in to account before the 6 nations, but he is currently the only back-row showing any form and he is not a number 8 long-term, so I don't see any issue with my statement.

I'd hope/assume the pecking order is something like this?

6. T Curry / Ludlam / Hill
7. Earl / Willis / B Curry / Pearson
8. Mercer / Willis / Dombrandt

Maybe T Curry continues as an openside and we want a better jumper at 6, but something like that. Dombrandt appears to have fallen off the map completely but it will be interesting to see if he can still fight his way back in against two (immensely talented, but at the top level) untested 8s.

Dombrandt has been in good form the first games of the season. Looked good and made important interventions

[Oakboy]

Sure. We've got a whole load of premiership form and a reshape of the squad to take in to account before the 6 nations, but he is currently the only back-row showing any form and he is not a number 8 long-term, so I don't see any issue with my statement.

I'd hope/assume the pecking order is something like this?

6. T Curry / Ludlam / Hill
7. Earl / Willis / B Curry / Pearson
8. Mercer / Willis / Dombrandt

Maybe T Curry continues as an openside and we want a better jumper at 6, but something like that. Dombrandt appears to have fallen off the map completely but it will be interesting to see if he can still fight his way back in against two (immensely talented, but at the top level) untested 8s.

Dombrandt has been in good form the first games of the season. Looked good and made important interventions

He looked superb in little cameos yesterday but I think T Willis and Mercer now deserve chances ahead of him. T Willis should get the 6N and then go from there.

[TheNomad]

He looked superb in little cameos yesterday but I think T Willis and Mercer now deserve chances ahead of him. T Willis should get the 6N and then go from there.

Out of interest, why Willis over Mercer? More generally, I find it very strange that we left these two behind and picked a (clearly very rusty) Vunipola ahead of them