Borthwick’s England 2.0

[TheDasher]

Interestingly I’m hoping Underhill still comes into the equation if he can regain form. Given he’s played 6 at Ospreys ( alongside Tipuric at 7) and on occasion 8 at Bath, and has a carrying game more 6/8 than linkman - I think he still might have a lot more to bring to the party, maybe as a utility backrow impact player to begin with?

I actually 100% agree with you on that - he definitely has a lot of value to offer England still and I think would be an absolute asset at 6 alongside one of the fleet youngsters. Problem is fitness - I have no faith in him not being about to be knocked out any minute. If he can go 6 months without a concussion, then I want to look at him again.

Puja

It’s one of those whatmighthavebeens but a fit backrow of 6 T Curry, 7 Underhill and 8 Falatau might have even swung that 2021 Lions series in SA

Not sure - I think at that moment Tadhg Beirne was an absolute monster of a player - just exceptional, and he was on the bench as Lawes and Curry started. I think Beirne probably should've been starting at 6 to be honest but hey ho, difficult to remember who was in/out of form.

[Mikey Brown]

Interestingly I’m hoping Underhill still comes into the equation if he can regain form. Given he’s played 6 at Ospreys ( alongside Tipuric at 7) and on occasion 8 at Bath, and has a carrying game more 6/8 than linkman - I think he still might have a lot more to bring to the party, maybe as a utility backrow impact player to begin with?

I actually 100% agree with you on that - he definitely has a lot of value to offer England still and I think would be an absolute asset at 6 alongside one of the fleet youngsters. Problem is fitness - I have no faith in him not being about to be knocked out any minute. If he can go 6 months without a concussion, then I want to look at him again.

Puja

It’s one of those whatmighthavebeens but a fit backrow of 6 T Curry, 7 Underhill and 8 Falatau might have even swung that 2021 Lions series in SA

Wasn’t Lawes player of the series for the Lions?

[jngf]

Pearson is an absolute beast of a player. Went too upright into Jack Morgan and got dumped in the warm-ups and immediately became rubbish.

Seriously though - from what I've seen of him he's a hell of talent.

Recalling that match I thought he did look a bit lightweight and willowy compared to his vital statistics on paper - might need a year or to fill out?

[Scrumhead]

Honestly I don’t know what kind of specs you watch through but in what world does Pearson look ‘lightweight and willowy’? He’s visibly very solid.

[Banquo]

He looked superb in little cameos yesterday but I think T Willis and Mercer now deserve chances ahead of him. T Willis should get the 6N and then go from there.

Out of interest, why Willis over Mercer? More generally, I find it very strange that we left these two behind and picked a (clearly very rusty) Vunipola ahead of them

. His potential ceiling is higher than Mercer's,

Why? Mercer to me is more skilled tbh

[Banquo]

Honestly I don’t know what kind of specs you watch through but in what world does Pearson look ‘lightweight and willowy’? He’s visibly very solid.

hes a stone heavier than Underhill...3 ins taller.

[p/d]

Honestly I don’t know what kind of specs you watch through but in what world does Pearson look ‘lightweight and willowy’? He’s visibly very solid.

hes a stone heavier than Underhill...3 ins taller.

Willowy then

[Banquo]

Honestly I don’t know what kind of specs you watch through but in what world does Pearson look ‘lightweight and willowy’? He’s visibly very solid.

hes a stone heavier than Underhill...3 ins taller.

Willowy then

obvs

[Danno]

hes a stone heavier than Underhill...3 ins taller.

Willowy then

obvs

He won't feel the tackles.






This is kinda niche.

[Scrumhead]

Out of interest, why Willis over Mercer? More generally, I find it very strange that we left these two behind and picked a (clearly very rusty) Vunipola ahead of them

. His potential ceiling is higher than Mercer's,

Why? Mercer to me is more skilled tbh

Mercer is more skilled. However, I think @Oakboy was suggesting that Willis’ skill set might be more effective at test level. Hopefully, we’ll find out.

My view is that both get a bit pigeon-holed based upon certain aspects of their style.

Mercer tends to be miscast as a flair player. He definitely has that in his locker but his work rate and physicality are underrated.

Willis is almost the opposite. He’s got a good rugby brain and decent skills but he’s mostly recognised as a good carrier and a hard worker. He actually reminds me a bit of Faletau.

FWIW, I’d say similar about Dombrandt. His work rate and defensive work is almost always dismissed which is quite bizarre for anyone who watches him regularly.

[Banquo]

. His potential ceiling is higher than Mercer's,

Why? Mercer to me is more skilled tbh

Mercer is more skilled. However, I think @Oakboy was suggesting that Willis’ skill set might be more effective at test level. Hopefully, we’ll find out.

My view is that both get a bit pigeon-holed based upon certain aspects of their style.

Mercer tends to be miscast as a flair player. He definitely has that in his locker but his work rate and physicality are underrated.

Willis is almost the opposite. He’s got a good rugby brain and decent skills but he’s mostly recognised as a good carrier and a hard worker. He actually reminds me a bit of Faletau.

FWIW, I’d say similar about Dombrandt. His work rate and defensive work is almost always dismissed which is quite bizarre for anyone who watches him regularly.

I get what he was suggesting, I was asking why.

[Mikey Brown]

. His potential ceiling is higher than Mercer's,

Why? Mercer to me is more skilled tbh

Mercer is more skilled. However, I think @Oakboy was suggesting that Willis’ skill set might be more effective at test level. Hopefully, we’ll find out.

My view is that both get a bit pigeon-holed based upon certain aspects of their style.

Mercer tends to be miscast as a flair player. He definitely has that in his locker but his work rate and physicality are underrated.

Willis is almost the opposite. He’s got a good rugby brain and decent skills but he’s mostly recognised as a good carrier and a hard worker. He actually reminds me a bit of Faletau.

FWIW, I’d say similar about Dombrandt. His work rate and defensive work is almost always dismissed which is quite bizarre for anyone who watches him regularly.

Yeah, his timing just looked off in so many areas in the 6 nations. Kind of like Earl did on a number of sub appearances previously. It’s hard to know what that always came down to with so many changes going on around him, but he had an extended run and wasn’t able to take the chance.

Still a shame to then be replaced by a useless Vunipola though.

He looks a lot slimmer this season. I wonder how much that’s just general conditioning or aimed at a particular change in play style/work-rate.

[Oakboy]

Why? Mercer to me is more skilled tbh

Mercer is more skilled. However, I think @Oakboy was suggesting that Willis’ skill set might be more effective at test level. Hopefully, we’ll find out.

My view is that both get a bit pigeon-holed based upon certain aspects of their style.

Mercer tends to be miscast as a flair player. He definitely has that in his locker but his work rate and physicality are underrated.

Willis is almost the opposite. He’s got a good rugby brain and decent skills but he’s mostly recognised as a good carrier and a hard worker. He actually reminds me a bit of Faletau.

FWIW, I’d say similar about Dombrandt. His work rate and defensive work is almost always dismissed which is quite bizarre for anyone who watches him regularly.

I get what he was suggesting, I was asking why.

I think Willis has an all-round package of a game that will get him further in international rugby than Mercer. At this stage, nobody knows so it is all about perception/judgement. Applying skill is perhaps more important than being skilful, IMO. A number 8 needs grunt and physical competitiveness to get him where his skill (in off-loading or whatever) can have full advantage. That is Willis ahead of Mercer for me. Willis is more likely to affect the game (i.e. number of times + damage extent) in the course of 80 international minutes, I'd say.

That's not to condemn Mercer, just marginally rate Willis as more deserving of a first chance.

[Banquo]

Mercer is more skilled. However, I think @Oakboy was suggesting that Willis’ skill set might be more effective at test level. Hopefully, we’ll find out.

My view is that both get a bit pigeon-holed based upon certain aspects of their style.

Mercer tends to be miscast as a flair player. He definitely has that in his locker but his work rate and physicality are underrated.

Willis is almost the opposite. He’s got a good rugby brain and decent skills but he’s mostly recognised as a good carrier and a hard worker. He actually reminds me a bit of Faletau.

FWIW, I’d say similar about Dombrandt. His work rate and defensive work is almost always dismissed which is quite bizarre for anyone who watches him regularly.

I get what he was suggesting, I was asking why.

I think Willis has an all-round package of a game that will get him further in international rugby than Mercer. At this stage, nobody knows so it is all about perception/judgement. Applying skill is perhaps more important than being skilful, IMO. A number 8 needs grunt and physical competitiveness to get him where his skill (in off-loading or whatever) can have full advantage. That is Willis ahead of Mercer for me. Willis is more likely to affect the game (i.e. number of times + damage extent) in the course of 80 international minutes, I'd say.

That's not to condemn Mercer, just marginally rate Willis as more deserving of a first chance.

Ok. In that case I refer you to Scrumhead's piece around pigeon holing players . Be good to test out your theories either way!

[Mellsblue]

A number 8 needs grunt and physical competitiveness to get him where his skill (in off-loading or whatever) can have full advantage.

Mercer was the player of the year in the most physically demanding league in the world. Even if he’s not physically up to it, which I doubt, there’s many no8s who have been deployed in different ways to maximise their skill set. Kieran Read, same weight and one inch taller than Mercer if Wiki is to be believed, did ok…
Ben Earl, 9lbs lighter and 3” shorter, has just arguably been England’s player of the tournament at no8.

[Oakboy]

A number 8 needs grunt and physical competitiveness to get him where his skill (in off-loading or whatever) can have full advantage.

Mercer was the player of the year in the most physically demanding league in the world. Even if he’s not physically up to it, which I doubt, there’s many no8s who have been deployed in different ways to maximise their skill set. Kieran Read, same weight and one inch taller than Mercer if Wiki is to be believed, did ok…
Ben Earl, 9lbs lighter and 3” shorter, has just arguably been England’s player of the tournament at no8.

Again, I agree. I just suggested my personal preference was to try Willis before Mercer, especially as SB's previous squad selections indicated that order anyway. I'd have picked Simmonds at his peak and often said so at the time. He was better then at what Earl has done now, IMO.

However, I think SB will consider that size, to some degree, will need incorporating in his back row based on his constant preference for Lawes at 6. Curry, Underhill, BV had a speed/bulk balance of sorts. Dombrandt, theoretically, provided a few extra pounds plus mobility. Maybe, Willis at 8, with a good all-round physical/mobility presence, gives more scope for speed on the flanks.

At least back-row is one area where we can bick the best from good choices rather than scraping together 'least-bad' as in front row.

[FKAS]

Pearson is an absolute beast of a player. Went too upright into Jack Morgan and got dumped in the warm-ups and immediately became rubbish.

Seriously though - from what I've seen of him he's a hell of talent.

He's looked in good form for Saints so far, it's a really good match for club and player that.

He's a bit raw for international level but some more time in camp and more minutes in the 6N and next summer he'll probably come on leaps and bounds.

[Puja]

Barbeary's also going to be in the mix at 8, given that he's managed to play 3 whole games without breaking, and looks to be in good form with Bath's promising start to the season.

Puja

[TheDasher]

A number 8 needs grunt and physical competitiveness to get him where his skill (in off-loading or whatever) can have full advantage.

Mercer was the player of the year in the most physically demanding league in the world. Even if he’s not physically up to it, which I doubt, there’s many no8s who have been deployed in different ways to maximise their skill set. Kieran Read, same weight and one inch taller than Mercer if Wiki is to be believed, did ok…
Ben Earl, 9lbs lighter and 3” shorter, has just arguably been England’s player of the tournament at no8.

Agree with this - Mercer is a star. No issues with his abilities at all and if he's found wanting in really physical games he's a great bench option for some impact late on. From what I've seen of him he's pretty busy though, no concerns over work-rate or physicality particularly.

I think with him, T.Willis and Earl, we're well covered at 8 now.

I'm not entirely sure we should move Earl to be honest but good options for SB now. Wouldn't surprise me if SB starts playing Chessum or Martin at 6 mind you.

[Mikey Brown]

Barbeary's also going to be in the mix at 8, given that he's managed to play 3 whole games without breaking, and looks to be in good form with Bath's promising start to the season.

Puja

Probably naive to think he'll have a change of heart, reconvert to hooker, get his throwing/scrum up to standard, stay fit and make it for England, right?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Barbeary's also going to be in the mix at 8, given that he's managed to play 3 whole games without breaking, and looks to be in good form with Bath's promising start to the season.

Puja

I'd also add a note for Guy Pepper who has come back from a long term injury and is looking superb for Falcons! He's flying under the radar for most but is really standing out.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Barbeary's also going to be in the mix at 8, given that he's managed to play 3 whole games without breaking, and looks to be in good form with Bath's promising start to the season.

Puja

Probably naive to think he'll have a change of heart, reconvert to hooker, get his throwing/scrum up to standard, stay fit and make it for England, right?

Yeah he's not changing back. Settled at 8 now.

[16th man]

Barbeary's also going to be in the mix at 8, given that he's managed to play 3 whole games without breaking, and looks to be in good form with Bath's promising start to the season.

Puja

Probably naive to think he'll have a change of heart, reconvert to hooker, get his throwing/scrum up to standard, stay fit and make it for England, right?

Yeah he's not changing back. Settled at 8 now.

Doesn't mean playing him at hooker won't be suggested at least twice in every England team thread until he retires.

[jimKRFC]

First choice THs in the Prem:

Bristol - Sinckler

Davison was out scrummed by Jake Woolmore on the weekend so wouldn't be pushing him for Eng...

Bristol's best tighthead, over the last couple of seasons, is actually Max Lahiff who's been a lot more consistent than Sinckler who's looked distinctly uninterested at time. Plus Max can play both sides. Kloska is starting to play more as well so hoping he can push through this season.

Harding (6 or 8, line out jumper) was way more influential than Pearson on the flank as well so should really be in the future England back row conversation.

Please keep ignoring Thacker though.

[Puja]

Barbeary's also going to be in the mix at 8, given that he's managed to play 3 whole games without breaking, and looks to be in good form with Bath's promising start to the season.

Puja

Probably naive to think he'll have a change of heart, reconvert to hooker, get his throwing/scrum up to standard, stay fit and make it for England, right?

Yeah he's not changing back. Settled at 8 now.

And I think the idea of him playing hooker was more of a dream than anything else - you don't get the same impact out of a player at 2 as you do in the back row and it's not correct to think that if he moved forward you'd be getting a back row's performance for free. Just look at Fourie for South Africa and how different a player he is based on where he come on.

Puja