Premiership Rugby planning a "relaunch" for 2024-25

[Puja]

Well, it's not quite East Anglia like I suggested, but Wasps are now planning a move to Kent: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67193921

Could be a really good call. Give them access to their rump of London-based support, as well as a whole new catchment area which is barely served by any professional sport at all. Whether it will actually come to anything is a different matter.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Can’t wait to find out where they’re moving to next after this plan fails.

[Banquo]

Well, it's not quite East Anglia like I suggested, but Wasps are now planning a move to Kent: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67193921

Could be a really good call. Give them access to their rump of London-based support, as well as a whole new catchment area which is barely served by any professional sport at all. Whether it will actually come to anything is a different matter.

Puja

White Kent?

[Puja]

Can’t wait to find out where they’re moving to next after this plan fails.

Kathmandu, I believe.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Can’t wait to find out where they’re moving to next after this plan fails.

Kathmandu, I believe.

Puja

Might be the most plausible one yet…

[Puja]

Can’t wait to find out where they’re moving to next after this plan fails.

Kathmandu, I believe.

Puja

Might be the most plausible one yet…

I hear that they're gagging to build a 12,000 seater stadium for a rugby club with a lot of brand recognition and no league to play in.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Kathmandu, I believe.

Puja

Might be the most plausible one yet…

I hear that they're gagging to build a 12,000 seater stadium for a rugby club with a lot of brand recognition and no league to play in.

Puja

The local NIMBYs aren’t happy. Some are describing them as waspish.

[jngf]

Think there needs to be a far more radical reboot of English rugby than this, an alternative approach

1. Central RFU contacts for Elite Players - with players ‘loaned back’ to clubs if not required for test duty or training - If RFU are paying wages, they get priority over players timetable not clubs.

2. The business model of attempting to run 10 seperate professional clubs is totally unsustainable - especially when only the comparatively well off (especially in a hyper inflationary climate) can afford to watch a product which is a vast ‘step down’ in the terms of quality, skill and pace of play from test level ( and there’s always been this sizeable gap even in amateur and semi professional pre 96’ days).

The last game I saw live was Warriors vs Wasps (ironically enough) and the most exciting thing about it was seeing the Ricoh arena for first time

With that in mind, why not take a leaf out of Saffa and Irish book with a Provincial set up of 4 based as follows:

West Country:

Amalgamation of Exeter Chiefs, Bath and Bristol

Anglia:

Amalgamation of Saracens and Harlequins

Mercia:

Amalgamation of Gloucester, Leicester Tigers and Saints

Northumbria:

Amalgamation of Sale and Falcons

3. RFU to allow players to play for clubs abroad and still qualify for test selection. When Lions (and potential) lions class players of the calibre of Sam Simmonds and Jack Willis are made ineligible for test selection it really smacks of the English Clubs being the tail wagging the RFU dog to me

3. Really reform the RFU exec and non exec management - it still comes across as something along the lines of a ‘House of Lords’ for former players ( and like that place at worst a gloried pension plan for blazers) - Given the games been supposedly professional for getting on 3 decades why is is it still run like the WI ?

[Tom Moore]

Think there needs to be a far more radical reboot of English rugby than this, an alternative approach

1. Central RFU contacts for Elite Players - with players ‘loaned back’ to clubs if not required for test duty or training - If RFU are paying wages, they get priority over players timetable not clubs.

2. The business model of attempting to run 10 seperate professional clubs is totally unsustainable - especially when only the comparatively well off (especially in a hyper inflationary climate) can afford to watch a product which is a vast ‘step down’ in the terms of quality, skill and pace of play from test level ( and there’s always been this sizeable gap even in amateur and semi professional pre 96’ days).

The last game I saw live was Warriors vs Wasps (ironically enough) and the most exciting thing about it was seeing the Ricoh arena for first time

With that in mind, why not take a leaf out of Saffa and Irish book with a Provincial set up of 5 based as follows:

West Country:

Amalgamation of Exeter Chiefs, Bath and Bristol

Anglia:

Amalgamation of Saracens and Harlequins

Mercia:

Amalgamation of Gloucester, Leicester Tigers and Saints

Northumbria:

Amalgamation of Sale and Falcons

3. RFU to allow players to play for clubs abroad and still qualify for test selection. When Lions (and potential) lions class players of the calibre of Sam Simmonds and Jack Willis are made ineligible for test selection it really smacks of the English Clubs being the tail wagging the RFU dog to me

3. Really reform the RFU exec and non exec management - it still comes across as something along the lines of a ‘House of Lords’ for former players ( and like that place at worst a gloried pension plan for blazers) - Given the games been supposedly professional for getting on 3 decades why is is it still run like the WI ?

Don't agree on letting overseas based players play for England, because it will denude the quality of English domestic rugby, which isn't a good thing. Happily, no proven top quality internationals at their peak have left yet, but I wouldn't want to encourage it.

There's only 4 teams there. I agree with the concept, but I don't have a club team so it's easier for me. I imagine people with club loyalties might be significantly less supportive.

[jngf]

Think there needs to be a far more radical reboot of English rugby than this, an alternative approach

1. Central RFU contacts for Elite Players - with players ‘loaned back’ to clubs if not required for test duty or training - If RFU are paying wages, they get priority over players timetable not clubs.

2. The business model of attempting to run 10 seperate professional clubs is totally unsustainable - especially when only the comparatively well off (especially in a hyper inflationary climate) can afford to watch a product which is a vast ‘step down’ in the terms of quality, skill and pace of play from test level ( and there’s always been this sizeable gap even in amateur and semi professional pre 96’ days).

The last game I saw live was Warriors vs Wasps (ironically enough) and the most exciting thing about it was seeing the Ricoh arena for first time

With that in mind, why not take a leaf out of Saffa and Irish book with a Provincial set up of 5 based as follows:

West Country:

Amalgamation of Exeter Chiefs, Bath and Bristol

Anglia:

Amalgamation of Saracens and Harlequins

Mercia:

Amalgamation of Gloucester, Leicester Tigers and Saints

Northumbria:

Amalgamation of Sale and Falcons

3. RFU to allow players to play for clubs abroad and still qualify for test selection. When Lions (and potential) lions class players of the calibre of Sam Simmonds and Jack Willis are made ineligible for test selection it really smacks of the English Clubs being the tail wagging the RFU dog to me

3. Really reform the RFU exec and non exec management - it still comes across as something along the lines of a ‘House of Lords’ for former players ( and like that place at worst a gloried pension plan for blazers) - Given the games been supposedly professional for getting on 3 decades why is is it still run like the WI ?

Don't agree on letting overseas based players play for England, because it will denude the quality of English domestic rugby, which isn't a good thing. Happily, no proven top quality internationals at their peak have left yet, but I wouldn't want to encourage it.

There's only 4 teams there. I agree with the concept, but I don't have a club team so it's easier for me. I imagine people with club loyalties might be significantly less supportive.

You’re absolutely right - changed it to 4 now and I know there’s strong sentimental attachment to clubs, their history, culture and such like. For my part Warriors really put Worcester on the map and I enjoyed what it did for the area. The tension I think is that the existing number of clubs as it stands isn’t financially viable or sustainable in the context of a professional sport and the pursuit of a more competitive national side. I also cited Jack Willis and Sam Simmonds as being players who are at or nearing their peak,proven test class and at least in the case of Willis currently the best in their playing position.

[Puja]

Think there needs to be a far more radical reboot of English rugby than this, an alternative approach

1. Central RFU contacts for Elite Players - with players ‘loaned back’ to clubs if not required for test duty or training - If RFU are paying wages, they get priority over players timetable not clubs.

2. The business model of attempting to run 10 seperate professional clubs is totally unsustainable - especially when only the comparatively well off (especially in a hyper inflationary climate) can afford to watch a product which is a vast ‘step down’ in the terms of quality, skill and pace of play from test level ( and there’s always been this sizeable gap even in amateur and semi professional pre 96’ days).

The last game I saw live was Warriors vs Wasps (ironically enough) and the most exciting thing about it was seeing the Ricoh arena for first time

With that in mind, why not take a leaf out of Saffa and Irish book with a Provincial set up of 5 based as follows:

West Country:

Amalgamation of Exeter Chiefs, Bath and Bristol

Anglia:

Amalgamation of Saracens and Harlequins

Mercia:

Amalgamation of Gloucester, Leicester Tigers and Saints

Northumbria:

Amalgamation of Sale and Falcons

3. RFU to allow players to play for clubs abroad and still qualify for test selection. When Lions (and potential) lions class players of the calibre of Sam Simmonds and Jack Willis are made ineligible for test selection it really smacks of the English Clubs being the tail wagging the RFU dog to me

3. Really reform the RFU exec and non exec management - it still comes across as something along the lines of a ‘House of Lords’ for former players ( and like that place at worst a gloried pension plan for blazers) - Given the games been supposedly professional for getting on 3 decades why is is it still run like the WI ?

Don't agree on letting overseas based players play for England, because it will denude the quality of English domestic rugby, which isn't a good thing. Happily, no proven top quality internationals at their peak have left yet, but I wouldn't want to encourage it.

There's only 4 teams there. I agree with the concept, but I don't have a club team so it's easier for me. I imagine people with club loyalties might be significantly less supportive.

You’re absolutely right - changed it to 4 now and I know there’s strong sentimental attachment to clubs, their history, culture and such like. For my part Warriors really put Worcester on the map and I enjoyed what it did for the area. The tension I think is that the existing number of clubs as it stands isn’t financially viable or sustainable in the context of a professional sport and the pursuit of a more competitive national side. I also cited Jack Willis and Sam Simmonds as being players who are at or nearing their peak,proven test class and at least in the case of Willis currently the best in their playing position.

As we've noted before, regions are not feasible for several reasons, the foremost of which are:

1) It would be tossing tens of thousands of rugby fans who currently financially contribute to the game away. "Sentimental attachment" to clubs doesn't exactly cover it - the 45,000 who regularly attend home games at Gloucester, Northampton, and Leicester won't just switch to supporting Mercia. You might get the ones from whichever ground you end up keeping, but the others will vanish into the ether, likely not to engage with the sport again.

2) The clubs own the players' contracts. The owners own the clubs and in most cases have sunk vast amounts of wealth into them. How is this consolidation of clubs going to work? Who is going to explain to Bruce Craig and Steve Lansdown that they have to share?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Who is going to explain to Bruce Craig and Steve Lansdown that they have to share?

Puja

Not that I agree with the idea of regions but I suppose the nuclear option is for the RFU to pull EPS funding. It would make almost all the clubs financially unviable. Even if the richer owners wanted to find an extra few £mil from their own pocket there’s only so many times per season fans and tv execs will pay to watch Bristol v Bath

[jngf]

Don't agree on letting overseas based players play for England, because it will denude the quality of English domestic rugby, which isn't a good thing. Happily, no proven top quality internationals at their peak have left yet, but I wouldn't want to encourage it.

There's only 4 teams there. I agree with the concept, but I don't have a club team so it's easier for me. I imagine people with club loyalties might be significantly less supportive.

You’re absolutely right - changed it to 4 now and I know there’s strong sentimental attachment to clubs, their history, culture and such like. For my part Warriors really put Worcester on the map and I enjoyed what it did for the area. The tension I think is that the existing number of clubs as it stands isn’t financially viable or sustainable in the context of a professional sport and the pursuit of a more competitive national side. I also cited Jack Willis and Sam Simmonds as being players who are at or nearing their peak,proven test class and at least in the case of Willis currently the best in their playing position.

As we've noted before, regions are not feasible for several reasons, the foremost of which are:

1) It would be tossing tens of thousands of rugby fans who currently financially contribute to the game away. "Sentimental attachment" to clubs doesn't exactly cover it - the 45,000 who regularly attend home games at Gloucester, Northampton, and Leicester won't just switch to supporting Mercia. You might get the ones from whichever ground you end up keeping, but the others will vanish into the ether, likely not to engage with the sport again.

2) The clubs own the players' contracts. The owners own the clubs and in most cases have sunk vast amounts of wealth into them. How is this consolidation of clubs going to work? Who is going to explain to Bruce Craig and Steve Lansdown that they have to share?

Puja

This is exactly the issue, the RFU have let themselves be pushed around by powerful businessmen and not every professional club has such benefactors (some of whom have been corrupt eg Saracens) nor 45000 regular gate receipts. One might also argue that very few can afford £20 plus to watch something which rarely gets anywhere near the standard of test rugby. As I said I totally understand the emotional attachment to clubs but the problem is that that is increasingly jarring with the harsh needs to run and finance a sport professionally - it’s head vs heart here as far as I can see…

[Mellsblue]

Your head should look at how the regions in Wales and Scotland have struggled/failed and think about whether imposing regions/franchises in a country with club based infrastructure and history is a good idea. Your head should look across the channel to the most successful league in the world and see what can be achieved when clubs, and their league structure, are properly administered and funded.

[Puja]

You’re absolutely right - changed it to 4 now and I know there’s strong sentimental attachment to clubs, their history, culture and such like. For my part Warriors really put Worcester on the map and I enjoyed what it did for the area. The tension I think is that the existing number of clubs as it stands isn’t financially viable or sustainable in the context of a professional sport and the pursuit of a more competitive national side. I also cited Jack Willis and Sam Simmonds as being players who are at or nearing their peak,proven test class and at least in the case of Willis currently the best in their playing position.

As we've noted before, regions are not feasible for several reasons, the foremost of which are:

1) It would be tossing tens of thousands of rugby fans who currently financially contribute to the game away. "Sentimental attachment" to clubs doesn't exactly cover it - the 45,000 who regularly attend home games at Gloucester, Northampton, and Leicester won't just switch to supporting Mercia. You might get the ones from whichever ground you end up keeping, but the others will vanish into the ether, likely not to engage with the sport again.

2) The clubs own the players' contracts. The owners own the clubs and in most cases have sunk vast amounts of wealth into them. How is this consolidation of clubs going to work? Who is going to explain to Bruce Craig and Steve Lansdown that they have to share?

Puja

This is exactly the issue, the RFU have let themselves be pushed around by powerful businessmen and not every professional club has such benefactors (some of whom have been corrupt eg Saracens) nor 45000 regular gate receipts. One might also argue that very few can afford £20 plus to watch something which rarely gets anywhere near the standard of test rugby. As I said I totally understand the emotional attachment to clubs but the problem is that that is increasingly jarring with the harsh needs to run and finance a sport professionally - it’s head vs heart here as far as I can see…

Head is still confused as to how you're planning to run 4/5 regions as viable businesses if you've alienated all the fans. Or how you're planning on getting control of the clubs to merge them (barring Mells' scorched earth theory, which would probably work, but cause an awful lot of damage on the way through).

Puja

[Banquo]

fake regions imo won't work. Successful 'provincial' systems with a long history are natural building blocks in NZ, SA and Ireland, and they've been smart in developing them into fertile international player factories in the pro era. The Super club French model is a better bet, albeit their funding mechanisms are interesting. 6-8 clubs here, probably. (then what you do with 100s of spare pros becomes another question!)

[jngf]

fake regions imo won't work. Successful 'provincial' systems with a long history are natural building blocks in NZ, SA and Ireland, and they've been smart in developing them into fertile international player factories in the pro era. The Super club French model is a better bet, albeit their funding mechanisms are interesting. 6-8 clubs here, probably. (then what you do with 100s of spare pros becomes another question!)

Sadly the truth is the market for professional rugby in England simply cannot sustain hundreds of fully professional players.

[jngf]

Btw it’s not only restricting the domestic game that imo is needed in order for it to survive - it’s also professionalising the supervision, governance and management of the RFU itself

[Banquo]

fake regions imo won't work. Successful 'provincial' systems with a long history are natural building blocks in NZ, SA and Ireland, and they've been smart in developing them into fertile international player factories in the pro era. The Super club French model is a better bet, albeit their funding mechanisms are interesting. 6-8 clubs here, probably. (then what you do with 100s of spare pros becomes another question!)

Sadly the truth is not the market for professional rugby in England simply cannot sustain hundreds of fully professional players.

I agree, hence reducing the number of top tier clubs. The RFU also propose cutting squads to 50, which will further drive out players.

On the RFU, it does need a restructure and governance review, which is actually on the table but a bit slow. The council is an anachronism- but has served as a useful check and balance occasionally, and something has to represent the amateur game....but its unwieldy and needs replacing. The main problem imo is the incompetence of the board.

[Puja]

And for Wasps' next trick: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... source=nba

Puja

[jngf]

Well, it's not quite East Anglia like I suggested, but Wasps are now planning a move to Kent: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67193921

Could be a really good call. Give them access to their rump of London-based support, as well as a whole new catchment area which is barely served by any professional sport at all. Whether it will actually come to anything is a different matter.

Puja

From Coventry to Kent - worthy of a Sir John Betjeman poem?

Reading further about Swanley being a putative location, Joe Marler better be careful about using any gypsy boy taunts in that neck of the woods - it’s like the Cosa Nostra down there

[Mellsblue]

And for Wasps' next trick: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... source=nba

Puja

Lol. As always when this comes up, the RFU have to give permission which they won’t.

[Banquo]

And for Wasps' next trick: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... source=nba

Puja

That was the word, re URC

[Puja]

Wasps once again showing their inestimable talent to make friends in new environs and go where they'll be welcomed with open arms: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.tel ... ountryside

Puja