Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Banquo]

No way back for Zach?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

[FKAS]

my point being, as said it should be a given its physical game. Yet its all that gets said or headlined; sure Roots is 'physical', but has he a brain, how is he different to others.Frankly it was an obsession for Jones post 2019 too. If you think being physical is the way to get to France, I wish you good luck.

There's got to be mobility and work rate in there and some skill would be nice. If you look at the French backrow they are nearly all serious units that jump in the lineout but they cover the pitch.The Irish have some absolute bruisers at 6 and 8 but they are all court players. I hope CCS can develop into that type of player for us.

Well exactly, we got there in the end. But you still missed out decision making and skill isn't really optional

Above average levels of skill, which has been missing.

Decision making is easier in a system that works and the player feels comfortable in, plus a lot of the time there will be a player wearing 9 or higher shouting at the forward so they know what to do.

[Mellsblue]

Simples!

[SixAndAHalf]

No way back for Zach?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

I appreciate he hasn't exactly been tearing up trees for Gloucester this year but I can understand his frustration that his face just doesn't seem to fit. He clearly has talent and I could see a role for him coming into some of those dreary world cup games and making an impact. Personally I would rather have seen what he can do than give more caps to Dombrandt...

[Epaminondas Pules]

Well exactly, we got there in the end. But you still missed out decision making.

That's what the coach is for

que?

Because our coaches don't like players making decisions off their own back. Just a dig at our more recent coaches at England level, and their lust for control.

[ilovelamp]

No way back for Zach?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

I appreciate he hasn't exactly been tearing up trees for Gloucester this year but I can understand his frustration that his face just doesn't seem to fit. He clearly has talent and I could see a role for him coming into some of those dreary world cup games and making an impact. Personally I would rather have seen what he can do than give more caps to Dombrandt...

If you don’t think he’s been tearing up trees for us, and are basing your judgment on one incident v Dombrandt in the Christmas match, then I think you’ll find you are sadly mistaken. Mercer has been outstanding for us, even after his long lay off, and I am utterly confused as to why Borthwick can’t see what he offers.

[Epaminondas Pules]

No way back for Zach?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

Frank and honest. Why not. It is obvious Borthwick doesn't want his skills, which I think is sad, especially as he's not given him a fair crack.

[ilovelamp]

No way back for Zach?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

I appreciate he hasn't exactly been tearing up trees for Gloucester this year but I can understand his frustration that his face just doesn't seem to fit. He clearly has talent and I could see a role for him coming into some of those dreary world cup games and making an impact. Personally I would rather have seen what he can do than give more caps to Dombrandt...

If you don’t think he’s been tearing up trees for us, and are basing your judgment on one incident v Dombrandt in the Christmas match, then I think you’ll find you are sadly mistaken. Mercer has been outstanding for us, even after his long lay off, and I am utterly confused as to why Borthwick can’t see what he offers.

Forgot to say the fact that we have been absolute dog toffee all season shouldn’t detract from the fact that Zach is a class act!

[Banquo]

There's got to be mobility and work rate in there and some skill would be nice. If you look at the French backrow they are nearly all serious units that jump in the lineout but they cover the pitch.The Irish have some absolute bruisers at 6 and 8 but they are all court players. I hope CCS can develop into that type of player for us.

Well exactly, we got there in the end. But you still missed out decision making and skill isn't really optional

Above average levels of skill, which has been missing.

Decision making is easier in a system that works and the player feels comfortable in, plus a lot of the time there will be a player wearing 9 or higher shouting at the forward so they know what to do.

Its the micro decision making which has been poor imo and speed of doing so, when we are chatting forwards. We simply don't produce well rounded players consistently enough for intl coaches to make the most of.

[Banquo]

That's what the coach is for

que?

Because our coaches don't like players making decisions off their own back. Just a dig at our more recent coaches at England level, and their lust for control.

aha! Yes, but I'm also talking about the microdecisions at the breakdown etc...

[Banquo]

No way back for Zach?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

Frank and honest. Why not. It is obvious Borthwick doesn't want his skills, which I think is sad, especially as he's not given him a fair crack.

yup

[FKAS]

No way back for Zach?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

Frank and honest. Why not. It is obvious Borthwick doesn't want his skills, which I think is sad, especially as he's not given him a fair crack.

I do feel a bit sorry for him having not been given a cap to state his claim but at the same time he's been in the pre and post world cup training squads. If he's not impressed in training and shown Silly Baldy what he needs then I think Zach's got to take some of the blame for it not working out. There's been the likes of Murley and Fin Smith who were overlooked for the world cup squad come and out and talk about what Borthwick has asked them to work on so I can't believe Mercer hasn't been told what he needs to do to change Borthwick's mind, these quotes from Mercer do feel very similar to what he said post world cup.

[Oakboy]

There are three No 8s not in the squad, apart from Mercer - T Willis, Barbeary and Fisilau. There are three in the squad if you count Dombrandt, Earl and C-S. Ranking the seven of them is quite a task. Even giving them game time will be difficult.

I'm surprised Dombrandt and C-S are in. I'd move Earl to the flank.

[SixAndAHalf]

LP: Genge, Marler, Obano
HK: Cowan-Dickie, Dan, George
TP: Cole, Heyes, Stuart
LK: Chessum, Coles Isiekwe, Itoje
FL: Curry, Earl, Pearson, Roots, Underhill
N8: Cunningham-South, Dombrandt

SH: Care, Mitchell, Spencer
FH: Ford, F. Smith, M. Smith
IC: N/A
OC: Beard, Dingwall, Lawrence, Slade
WG: Daly, Feyi-Waboso, Freeman, Roebuck
FB: Furbank, Steward

Maybe missed the boat on the squad comments but here goes...

- Good squad overall with the only issue area from my perspective being the back row - I would have liked to have seen Barbeary and Mercer (for Dombrandt and Roots) plus would have also asked Lawes to keep playing (for Isiekwe) - Lawes could easily play at the next world cup at 38.

- Common knowledge but this squad really does show the lack of depth at tight head prop and for big locks - identifying and developing a few of these over the next cycle will be key. AOF has potential but he will still be pretty green going into the next world cup so the hope has to be that one of Heyes / Stuart / Sinckler kicks on. Not sure what names are out there for an enforcer lock?

Team for me from the squad: Marler, George, Stuart, Chessum, Itoje, Pearson, Underhill, Earl; Mitchell, Ford, IFW, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman, Steward; Genge, Dan, Cole, Coles, CCS; Care, M. Smith, Daly

[SixAndAHalf]

There are three No 8s not in the squad, apart from Mercer - T Willis, Barbeary and Fisilau. There are three in the squad if you count Dombrandt, Earl and C-S. Ranking the seven of them is quite a task. Even giving them game time will be difficult.

I'm surprised Dombrandt and C-S are in. I'd move Earl to the flank.

For me:

Barbeary
Earl (would play him at 7)
Mercer
TWillis
Dombrandt

CCS and Fisalau unranked as they need to play more (and could also end up as flankers)

[Banquo]

There are three No 8s not in the squad, apart from Mercer - T Willis, Barbeary and Fisilau. There are three in the squad if you count Dombrandt, Earl and C-S. Ranking the seven of them is quite a task. Even giving them game time will be difficult.

I'm surprised Dombrandt and C-S are in. I'd move Earl to the flank.

For me:

Barbeary
Earl (would play him at 7)
Mercer
TWillis
Dombrandt

CCS and Fisalau unranked as they need to play more (and could also end up as flankers)

You think Barbeary is the best 8, or is that reverse order

[Puja]

Marler back for Quins. Obano will be cursing the timing, especially with Genge apparently on the verge of a return.

Ford also back for Sale and Lawrence playing 12 for the first time this season.

Puja

[p/d]

No way back for Zach?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

Paid the price for lacking length in the arm department. Said this from day one.

[Banquo]

Marler back for Quins. Obano will be cursing the timing, especially with Genge apparently on the verge of a return.

Ford also back for Sale and Lawrence playing 12 for the first time this season.

Puja

Cam Redpath benched. Be interesting to see what they actually do, given Ojomoh plays inside centre normally as I understand it. Though Which will know for sure.

[Banquo]

No way back for Zach?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

Paid the price for lacking length in the arm department. Said this from day one.

beats a rant from Dombrandt

[switchskier]

No way back for Zach?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

I appreciate he hasn't exactly been tearing up trees for Gloucester this year but I can understand his frustration that his face just doesn't seem to fit. He clearly has talent and I could see a role for him coming into some of those dreary world cup games and making an impact. Personally I would rather have seen what he can do than give more caps to Dombrandt...

He hasn't played for England since 2018? Does that mean that he'll qualify for Scotland again, or does that not work since he was only qualified for us because he went to school north of the border?

[morepork]

His old man is a NZ rugby league legend. You are lucky Zach isn't playing Super League. He is instead in the square peg-round hole world of rugby union coach doublethink. What a waste.

[Mikey Brown]

Marler back for Quins. Obano will be cursing the timing, especially with Genge apparently on the verge of a return.

Ford also back for Sale and Lawrence playing 12 for the first time this season.

Puja

Cam Redpath benched. Be interesting to see what they actually do, given Ojomoh plays inside centre normally as I understand it. Though Which will know for sure.

Playing both Lawrence and Ojomoh (slightly) out of position would surely suggest a request (or hope on Lawrence’s part) to secure the 12 shirt for England. I can’t see why Bath would do that otherwise.

What did you mean by Dombrandt rant? I can’t remember hearing much from him in terms of interviews/sound bites or am I missing a joke?

[Which Tyler]

Playing both Lawrence and Ojomoh (slightly) out of position would surely suggest a request (or hope on Lawrence’s part) to secure the 12 shirt for England. I can’t see why Bath would do that otherwise.

This.
Lawrence is more likely to be playing IC for England, so it's a good idea for him personally to get his eye in again there this weekend.
Equally, next week, Ojomoh is likely to be playing OC outside Redpath, so it's no real loss for him to get his eye in again there this weekend.

Beyond that, Mojo is becoming a numberless centre, comfortable in both shirts (though still more comfortable at IC).

[Banquo]

Marler back for Quins. Obano will be cursing the timing, especially with Genge apparently on the verge of a return.

Ford also back for Sale and Lawrence playing 12 for the first time this season.

Puja

Cam Redpath benched. Be interesting to see what they actually do, given Ojomoh plays inside centre normally as I understand it. Though Which will know for sure.

s or am I missing a joke?

yes but a sh.t one