Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Mikey Brown]

I am quite surprised that we don't all want M Smith to be the starting 10.

You are?

[p/d]

I am quite surprised that we don't all want M Smith to be the starting 10.

You are?

now you mention it....

[twitchy]

I am quite surprised that we don't all want M Smith to be the starting 10.

I want marcus to start long term, but he's injured so it throws up an interesting selection. That's all.

[Banquo]

I can only assume the injury was sustained in a fight to see who had kicking duties.

[Mellsblue]

I'm actually excited to see how fin gets on. Hopefully marcus is ok for the latter stages of the 6N.

(especially given that the likelihood is that we'll have Mitchell and Dingwall either side of him)


Puja

Careful

[Puja]

I am quite surprised that we don't all want M Smith to be the starting 10.

I mean, I'm not against it, and I'd certainly not be unhappy if he was, but FSmith has stepped his performances up another level this season and is the form 10 in England (although pursued very close by MSmith). Ordinarily I'd call it a toss-up, with Marcus being just ahead by virtue of experience, but having the 9/10/12 club combo pushes Fin ahead for me.

Puja

[Oakboy]

A back line of Mitchell, Smith, IFW, Dingwall, Slade, Freeman and Furbank is an exciting prospect from two clubs.

If SB persists with 'kick and hope', presumably Spencer, Ford, Roebuck, Daly and Steward will be in his thoughts.

[Mellsblue]

You’ve all got to stop with this nonsense of putting club combos together and surrounding the flyhalf with players he’s familiar with. It’s been debunked.

[Puja]

You’ve all got to stop with this nonsense of putting club combos together and surrounding the flyhalf with players he’s familiar with. It’s been debunked.

Spencer, MSmith, Steward, Slade, Daly, Roebuck, Furbank.

Perfection.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

What has happened to Bailey at Bath, is he injured?

I had hoped by now we would have an Orlando in the side

Finn Russell happened to him; there's also a distinct possibility that he's being overtaken by Harris for the bench spot (if only because Sam covers wing as well as FH & FB)

I'm actually excited to see how fin gets on. Hopefully marcus is ok for the latter stages of the 6N.

Absolutely.

I am quite surprised that we don't all want M Smith to be the starting 10.

Despite the last month or so of several people championing Fin > Marcus? (whilst not being remotely upset if the decision was the other way around)

[FKAS]

A back line of Mitchell, Smith, IFW, Dingwall, Slade, Freeman and Furbank is an exciting prospect from two clubs.

If SB persists with 'kick and hope', presumably Spencer, Ford, Roebuck, Daly and Steward will be in his thoughts.

Probably not Daly. Slightly ropey under the high ball.

A well balanced and youthful backline is within grasp. It's the hope that kills you right.

[Mellsblue]

You’ve all got to stop with this nonsense of putting club combos together and surrounding the flyhalf with players he’s familiar with. It’s been debunked.

Spencer, MSmith, Steward, Slade, Daly, Roebuck, Furbank.

Perfection.

Puja

That’s the dream.

[Banquo]

Smith M ruled out. Calf injury.

[Puja]

Sinfield implies FSmith is in the box-seat:

“[Marcus is] a big loss,” added Sinfield. “He’s an outstanding guy who I have absolutely loved working with and I have got a really good connection with. But what that does is provide opportunities for others. We have said it since I have been working with England that we are blessed with the 10s that we have got. Fin Smith’s been in camp before, his form has been outstanding for Northampton and he has trained great too. Without giving too much away, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out where that might leave us. We have got Fin and George who has got 91 caps I think, so he has got that experience, and a young gun who has been in top, top form. We’re still in a very, very good position.”

Puja

[16th man]

Sinfield implies FSmith is in the box-seat:

“[Marcus is] a big loss,” added Sinfield. “He’s an outstanding guy who I have absolutely loved working with and I have got a really good connection with. But what that does is provide opportunities for others. We have said it since I have been working with England that we are blessed with the 10s that we have got. Fin Smith’s been in camp before, his form has been outstanding for Northampton and he has trained great too. Without giving too much away, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out where that might leave us. We have got Fin and George who has got 91 caps I think, so he has got that experience, and a young gun who has been in top, top form. We’re still in a very, very good position.”

Puja

It feels like the implication is that the bolded bits make it obvious what we'll do, but the fact that people find it hard to believe that the logical thread will be followed through should be some sort of indication of how badly selection has been bollocksed up for so long now.

[Puja]

Sinfield implies FSmith is in the box-seat:

“[Marcus is] a big loss,” added Sinfield. “He’s an outstanding guy who I have absolutely loved working with and I have got a really good connection with. But what that does is provide opportunities for others. We have said it since I have been working with England that we are blessed with the 10s that we have got. Fin Smith’s been in camp before, his form has been outstanding for Northampton and he has trained great too. Without giving too much away, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out where that might leave us. We have got Fin and George who has got 91 caps I think, so he has got that experience, and a young gun who has been in top, top form. We’re still in a very, very good position.”

Puja

It feels like the implication is that the bolded bits make it obvious what we'll do, but the fact that people find it hard to believe that the logical thread will be followed through should be some sort of indication of how badly selection has been bollocksed up for so long now.

Yeah, I can absolutely see that - "Northampton's 9/10/12 have been the form players and they've done brilliantly in camp. I think you can all guess what that means for selection - we're picking Care/Ford/Daly."

Puja

[p/d]

‘Fly-half Farrell will be a notable absentee in England's backline, but could their attacking threat be provided elsewhere?’


I wonder if that was meant to be read the way I read it.

[SixAndAHalf]

I am quite surprised that we don't all want M Smith to be the starting 10.

I would personally have Ford because he has demonstrated the best all round game at club and most importantly international level, and now has an opportunity to play unshackled from Farrell at 12. He is 30 so comfortably young enough to go to the next World Cup.

[Puja]

I am quite surprised that we don't all want M Smith to be the starting 10.

I would personally have Ford because he has demonstrated the best all round game at club and most importantly international level, and now has an opportunity to play unshackled from Farrell at 12. He is 30 so comfortably young enough to go to the next World Cup.

He wouldn't be the form pick though. On current demonstrations of quality, he is comfortably behind both Smiths. Class may be permanent, but right now he's not the best 10 and, with Smiths both with room to grow, it's entirely possible he may never be the best 10 again. In addition, there will never be a better opportunity to acclimate FSmith to international rugby, with the soft start to the 6N, other teams in flux, him in the form of his career, playing alongside clubmates - we need to be going a bit Bazball and promising him the whole 6N regardless of performance, to see if we have a potential superstar on our hands that we can nurture into something great.

It feels shitty to do, because Ford's missed so much time as our undisputed 10 by randomly undeservedly being behind Farrell for years at a time, and this should be his time to shine, but I can't justify it right now.

Puja

[SixAndAHalf]

I am quite surprised that we don't all want M Smith to be the starting 10.

I would personally have Ford because he has demonstrated the best all round game at club and most importantly international level, and now has an opportunity to play unshackled from Farrell at 12. He is 30 so comfortably young enough to go to the next World Cup.

He wouldn't be the form pick though. On current demonstrations of quality, he is comfortably behind both Smiths. Class may be permanent, but right now he's not the best 10 and, with Smiths both with room to grow, it's entirely possible he may never be the best 10 again. In addition, there will never be a better opportunity to acclimate FSmith to international rugby, with the soft start to the 6N, other teams in flux, him in the form of his career, playing alongside clubmates - we need to be going a bit Bazball and promising him the whole 6N regardless of performance, to see if we have a potential superstar on our hands that we can nurture into something great.

It feels shitty to do, because Ford's missed so much time as our undisputed 10 by randomly undeservedly being behind Farrell for years at a time, and this should be his time to shine, but I can't justify it right now.

Puja

I'm loathe to pick on form especially given how much of a team game rugby is (e.g. a 10 will always look better behind a dominant pack) - you could chuck FSmith in and he underperforms which could harm him long term, and also impact the team. I would prefer him demonstrate his level with his club for a little longer (including dealing with peaks and troughs in form) and we can also give him minutes off the bench for England to ease him in.

Ford has to me demonstrated that he is a top class international 10 who can also vary his play so it's a position where I don't think we need to take a risk. Over the next 4 years if the Smiths are better that will become apparent.

This may also be influenced by the fact that I don't buy into the World Cup cycles and think we should always be trying to win the next game.

[p/d]

Absolutely. Feel for Ford but he isn’t the first to have spent the best part of his career ‘second choice’ only to miss out to the new kids on the block when the shadow of gloom has lifted

[Which Tyler]

It's easy as fans to go OTT on form, but it's got to be A consideration. And part of that consideration has got to be both length of form, and reasoning for it.
In Ford's case, it's been 1.5 seasons now, with the reason being injury - which he's still carrying.

If his poor form is because his knee is held together with sticky tape, then it's unlikely to come back until either his knee is sorted, or he's found a way to compensate for that - the latter option would show itself with week-in week-out form.

Both the length of his poor run of form, and the apparent reason behind it, mean that he's behind both Smiths in the pecking order internationally.
I feel for the guy, I really do. He should have been first choice starter for the last 2 RWC cycles, with a proper centre pairing, and been a contender for captaincy. But in 2024 he's 3rd choice FH.

I understand why neither he nor his club want to give him time to properly recover physically; but he really, REALLY needs to.

[Mikey Brown]

I know there’s been a lot of change in players and (hopefully) strategy, but I think we have a bit of an out in having Italy up first.

I think Smith starting with Ford available from the bench to fix things, if needed, will be worth more than Smith getting 20 minutes once SB deems it game over. If Ford is then considered the best starter for the rest of the tournament I don’t think that would be a massive problem.

I’ve been a champion of Ford for a long time too, but frankly it’s been ages since we’ve consistently seen the form and variety he’s capable of for England. That Argentina game was great, but hopefully we’re planning to do more than dig our heels in and play complete anti-rugby.

[fivepointer]

Not helpful....

[twitchy]

An infected cut just seems like complete negligence on the part of the medical team.