Borthwick’s England 2.0

[TheDasher]

It's weird. I think SB has to make changes on the one hand. On the other if the main one is bringing Tuilagi back in at 12, it feels like such a backward step. The likes of him and Billy V in the short-term scenario of the RWC were understandable but in a quest for progress Dingwall should get another game - especially as Lawrence is not ready.

Where I get more contrary thoughts is in the case of the 10 shirt. I really want Fin Smith to start, again because Marcus is not ready, but SB has not prepared for that with his time off the bench so far.

I suppose SB has to be cut some slack to treat the Scotland game as a one-off - looking for a 3rd 6N win.

I'd wager that the Scots would rather see Dingwall start than Tuilagi to be honest. I wouldn't compare Tuilagi and Billy V. Billy V for a long time looked lazy, out of shape, lacking in carrying impact, slow to close down in defence etc. Manu can still serve a purpose in the short term, he's a helluva handful and thought for opposition defences still, straightens us up and gets us over the gain line. If a 21 year old came through now playing Manu's current level (when fit...) we'd be keen for him to be in the squad. Billy V's level isn't anywhere near what's needed.

[TheDasher]

It feels like Underhill is there for what he's done in the past rather than what he does now, tbh...

Quite!

As has been said on here - Underhill proved pretty recently (vs Argentina) that he's a quality player. He's not past it either, only 27 I believe, so should be in his prime. But we don't want players playing into form for England, send him back to Bath and come back to him again when merit allows.

On the backrow - some have mentioned Dombrandt... I don't think he seemed physical enough for international rugby in the last few outings he had.

I think SB should pick from Roots (who I have been very impressed with, shame he's a kiwi but he's a proper ball carrier), CCS, Pearson, Earl and Tom Willis. I'd include Jack Willis but hey ho. He can throw a Chessum, Coles or Martin there when required but I think three from Roots, CCS, Pearson, Earl and TWillis (when back fit) with one on the bench would be cause for optimism. Obvs Tom Curry comes into it when fit but that sounds like it's some way off and I suspect we might see more injuries with him. CCS at 6, Earl at 7, TWillis at 8 would appeal to me. Pearson on the bench covering 6 and 7, Earl able to go to 8 and neither Pearson or CCS being awful emergency injury cover at 8 should it come to that.

[Banquo]

Smith and Manu (if Lawrence not available)

2 games in against the weakest sides and Smith has had, what, 10mins?
I know we all want to win but alongside Smith we also need to give the Welsh lad some time on the wing.

Good one...

Eh?

Giving our rookie 10 the broken down Manu alongside him rather than his club partner.

[TheDasher]

Good one...

Eh?

Giving our rookie 10 the broken down Manu alongside him rather than his club partner.

How gorgeous was that 50/22 kick from Ford. He keeps the shirt just for that next time up. Went left, nothing on, looked up and found the space - great moment.

[Oakboy]

Good one...

Eh?

Giving our rookie 10 the broken down Manu alongside him rather than his club partner.

Is Dingwall in an international shirt convincing you? You have been critical of Slade but not Ford.

[Banquo]

Eh?

Giving our rookie 10 the broken down Manu alongside him rather than his club partner.

How gorgeous was that 50/22 kick from Ford. He keeps the shirt just for that next time up. Went left, nothing on, looked up and found the space - great moment.

quality player Ford. What his career might have been but for the albatross round his neck,

[Banquo]

Eh?

Giving our rookie 10 the broken down Manu alongside him rather than his club partner.

Is Dingwall in an international shirt convincing you? You have been critical of Slade but not Ford.

I think he's settling in ok, and shows an intelligence in decision making lacking in others (not just in passing, but in support and breakdown play)- he is falling off too many tackles tho- he's done well ball in hand. Ford has played pretty well. Slade has always underwhelmed me as an intl 13, and he's caught kicking syndrome to make it worse.

[Which Tyler]

But we don't want players playing into form for England, send him back to Bath and come back to him again when merit allows.


I think SB should pick ... Tom Willis... Tom Curry

Errr.... beg pardon?

[p/d]

Good one...

Eh?

Giving our rookie 10 the broken down Manu alongside him rather than his club partner.

So when the rookie 10 could have started with 2 club partners against weak opposition we gave him all of 10 mins. I have no problem with him starting alongside Mitchell and the broken Manu if it means we are getting meaningful game time into him.

[p/d]

Eh?

Giving our rookie 10 the broken down Manu alongside him rather than his club partner.

How gorgeous was that 50/22 kick from Ford. He keeps the shirt just for that next time up. Went left, nothing on, looked up and found the space - great moment.

I knew there was one moment, just couldn't put my finger on it.

[Banquo]

Eh?

Giving our rookie 10 the broken down Manu alongside him rather than his club partner.

So when the rookie 10 could have started with 2 club partners against weak opposition we gave him all of 10 mins. I have no problem with him starting alongside Mitchell and the broken Manu if it means we are getting meaningful game time into him.

As long as YOU have no problem with that, all good. Bringing Manu in is nuts tbh, almost the definition of madness; I rate him, but he's had no rugby in months and is a sick note as we all know.

[TheDasher]

But we don't want players playing into form for England, send him back to Bath and come back to him again when merit allows.


I think SB should pick ... Tom Willis... Tom Curry

Errr.... beg pardon?

Sorry, reading through my post in context I thought this would be reasonably clear, maybe not. We shouldn't pick players that are coming back from long term injury and going through the process of finding form but are clearly some way off it. As a separate point, when back from injury and in form, I think Tom Willis should be firmly in SB's thoughts as a key option in the back row, as should Tom Curry, again, when back from injury and in form. I wasn't suggesting he plays them both against Scotland or in the 6ns...

[p/d]

Giving our rookie 10 the broken down Manu alongside him rather than his club partner.

So when the rookie 10 could have started with 2 club partners against weak opposition we gave him all of 10 mins. I have no problem with him starting alongside Mitchell and the broken Manu if it means we are getting meaningful game time into him.

As long as YOU have no problem with that, all good. Bringing Manu in is nuts tbh, almost the definition of madness; I rate him, but he's had no rugby in months and is a sick note as we all know.

Is it the thought of Dingwall getting dropped that is upsetting you so much? I assume the same view on Manu can be levelled at Underhill, yet only Stom stamped his feet over the folly of that.

No I don't have a problem with Smith starting alongside Mitchell if SB selects Manu at 12

[Banquo]

So when the rookie 10 could have started with 2 club partners against weak opposition we gave him all of 10 mins. I have no problem with him starting alongside Mitchell and the broken Manu if it means we are getting meaningful game time into him.

As long as YOU have no problem with that, all good. Bringing Manu in is nuts tbh, almost the definition of madness; I rate him, but he's had no rugby in months and is a sick note as we all know.

Is it the thought of Dingwall getting dropped that is upsetting you so much? I assume the same view on Manu can be levelled at Underhill, yet only Stom stamped his feet over the folly of that.

No I don't have a problem with Smith starting alongside Mitchell if SB selects Manu at 12

Not really, its the thought of reverting to magic Manu. As kinda demonstrated by Underhill, only more so. Dingers has to be on the brink of being dropped tbh, whilst I (big I) like a lot of the centre bits of pieces he does, he's also missed some glaring tackles that obviate the good stuff in pundits eyes.

[Oakboy]

Maybe SB will surprise us. Could he bring Freeman across to 13 and move Slade to 12? I'd prefer it to Tuilagi and Slade and it could be time to blood IFW. Furbank would then make sense on the bench.

[p/d]

As long as YOU have no problem with that, all good. Bringing Manu in is nuts tbh, almost the definition of madness; I rate him, but he's had no rugby in months and is a sick note as we all know.

Is it the thought of Dingwall getting dropped that is upsetting you so much? I assume the same view on Manu can be levelled at Underhill, yet only Stom stamped his feet over the folly of that.

No I don't have a problem with Smith starting alongside Mitchell if SB selects Manu at 12

Not really, its the thought of reverting to magic Manu. As kinda demonstrated by Underhill, only more so. Dingers has to be on the brink of being dropped tbh, whilst I (big I) like a lot of the centre bits of pieces he does, he's also missed some glaring tackles that obviate the good stuff in pundits eyes.

I’m absolutely with you. I hate the idea of turning back to Manu yet again - as much as I am still pissed Atkinson didn’t get a look in - but I don’t think that will stop SB picking him.
I have no problem with Dingwall, but something just looks out of kilter in the current line up, though that could simply be lack of cohesion of a new pairing. I just hope we can create go forward ball that gives Freeman something to really attack with.

[Mellsblue]

I just hope we can create go forward ball that gives Freeman something to really attack with.

Free Freeman, man.

[Mikey Brown]

Maybe SB will surprise us. Could he bring Freeman across to 13 and move Slade to 12? I'd prefer it to Tuilagi and Slade and it could be time to blood IFW. Furbank would then make sense on the bench.

That certainly would be surprising.

[TheDasher]

Maybe SB will surprise us. Could he bring Freeman across to 13 and move Slade to 12? I'd prefer it to Tuilagi and Slade and it could be time to blood IFW. Furbank would then make sense on the bench.

He won't do this but if I'd been Steve I might have looked at that gamble from game one. Lawrence is probably our 13 going forward, or Freeman. When Lawrence is out Freeman coming in from the wing to play 13 is a good thought... but we're short at 12 - I think going a bit SCW and throwing Slade in there even though he doesn't play there may have been a risk worth taking, Dingwall hasn't been terrible at all - I'm not sure Slade would've been worse. Olly Hartley is surely the man at some point...

[Banquo]

Is it the thought of Dingwall getting dropped that is upsetting you so much? I assume the same view on Manu can be levelled at Underhill, yet only Stom stamped his feet over the folly of that.

No I don't have a problem with Smith starting alongside Mitchell if SB selects Manu at 12

Not really, its the thought of reverting to magic Manu. As kinda demonstrated by Underhill, only more so. Dingers has to be on the brink of being dropped tbh, whilst I (big I) like a lot of the centre bits of pieces he does, he's also missed some glaring tackles that obviate the good stuff in pundits eyes.

I’m absolutely with you. I hate the idea of turning back to Manu yet again - as much as I am still pissed Atkinson didn’t get a look in - but I don’t think that will stop SB picking him.
I have no problem with Dingwall, but something just looks out of kilter in the current line up, though that could simply be lack of cohesion of a new pairing. I just hope we can create go forward ball that gives Freeman something to really attack with.

I don't think you can play three distributors at 10(esp Ford)/12/13, so I'd be looking at Sid to come in at 13. Dingers is quite good at getting over the tackle line in a subtle way, but having Lawrence in his best position of 13 outside Dingers or Sebbers might work - with Ford and M Smith especially.

[Banquo]

Maybe SB will surprise us. Could he bring Freeman across to 13 and move Slade to 12? I'd prefer it to Tuilagi and Slade and it could be time to blood IFW. Furbank would then make sense on the bench.

That certainly would be surprising.

or, ya know, play Dingwall and Freeman together, like at Saints.

[Banquo]

Maybe SB will surprise us. Could he bring Freeman across to 13 and move Slade to 12? I'd prefer it to Tuilagi and Slade and it could be time to blood IFW. Furbank would then make sense on the bench.

He won't do this but if I'd been Steve I might have looked at that gamble from game one. Lawrence is probably our 13 going forward, or Freeman. When Lawrence is out Freeman coming in from the wing to play 13 is a good thought... but we're short at 12 - I think going a bit SCW and throwing Slade in there even though he doesn't play there may have been a risk worth taking, Dingwall hasn't been terrible at all - I'm not sure Slade would've been worse. Olly Hartley is surely the man at some point...

Freeman looked good at 13 for Saints, but is currently back out on the wing for them. I'd like a bit more experience there before chucking him into another new backline at intl level. Slade has plenty of experience at 12 both as a starter in the shirt and (especially) popping up i/c for Exeter; but to me he very anodyne at intl level.

[morepork]

The Gypsy Curse on the English midfield persists for another generation...

[Spiffy]

If only England had converted Sam Simmonds to 12 three or four seasons ago ..........

[Epaminondas Pules]

It's weird. I think SB has to make changes on the one hand. On the other if the main one is bringing Tuilagi back in at 12, it feels like such a backward step. The likes of him and Billy V in the short-term scenario of the RWC were understandable but in a quest for progress Dingwall should get another game - especially as Lawrence is not ready.

Where I get more contrary thoughts is in the case of the 10 shirt. I really want Fin Smith to start, again because Marcus is not ready, but SB has not prepared for that with his time off the bench so far.

I suppose SB has to be cut some slack to treat the Scotland game as a one-off - looking for a 3rd 6N win.

I wouldn’t lump Billy and Manu in the same bracket. Billy has gone backwards at a rate of knots whereas Manu can still be effective and will bring gainline advantage which we are lacking. He’s not a long term option by any stretch but I can see it.