Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Banquo]

I thought you'd bite. I have not forgotten your first lecture on the subject - can it really be 18 years ago? I was Dorest06 so that was the year I first posted to get acquainted with my erroneous thinking!

as you know, I always enter discussions with good faith . My mantra in midfield has always been about skills both sides of the ball and decision making - centres whether starting at 12 or 13 should all be able to pass well, kick well, defend well, make great decisions and present a running threat (obvious I know); in the absence of nirvana its then about who is best suited to what role both sides of the ball.

I will never under-value your opinion. The 9, 10, 12, 13 debate has been tainted for years by Youngs and Farrell being omni-present together with Tuilagi's on/off presence. I would not argue against Slade's removal too though I maintain that he's suffered through having to cope with the malign influence of those three, just as Ford has. Long-term, the team has to find a new core with all five removed - hopefully with all the basic skills embedded as you describe.

In terms of rebuilding, I suppose I could argue that SB has been unlucky to have Marcus and Sid injured but Manu now (allegedly) fit!

Manu when fit has always been a positive for us tbh, but its time to move on, else you build/constrain a backline around a one dimensional set of skills (these days)- in theory Sid could sort of fit into that mould, but actually he's far happier wider (assuming Manu is only a 12 these days).

[Beasties]

I thought you'd bite. I have not forgotten your first lecture on the subject - can it really be 18 years ago? I was Dorset06 so that was the year I first posted to get acquainted with my erroneous thinking!

Now you're making me realise that I've been posting on this forum for 17 or 18 years!!! Damn.

Still think George Lowe should have played for England

Convex didn't like him

...and Anthony Allen should have got more caps. Robinson ruined JSD's career by playing him at 13. Etc. Forrester was the best 8 never to win 30 caps, and Croft was never a luxury giraffe. If Tom Rees had stayed fit we'd have won 2 more world cups

Tom Rees. Fine fine player. Real shame.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Schoolboy error Besides, Freeman is way more than physicality. I do tho think that Slade would always have been a more effective intl inside centre than at 13, but he's hardly started there. A complete rookie pairing like this, with players who don't regularly play in those positions for their clubs is pretty high risk. Nice partnership as a sum of their skills tho.

(as an aside, look around at the top intl sides, and generally what sort of player is at 12. There's a reason .)

I thought you'd bite. I have not forgotten your first lecture on the subject - can it really be 18 years ago? I was Dorset06 so that was the year I first posted to get acquainted with my erroneous thinking!

Now you're making me realise that I've been posting on this forum for 17 or 18 years!!! Damn.

Still think George Lowe should have played for England

Convex didn't like him

That's cause he didn't play for Sarries

[Banquo]

Now you're making me realise that I've been posting on this forum for 17 or 18 years!!! Damn.

Still think George Lowe should have played for England

Convex didn't like him

...and Anthony Allen should have got more caps. Robinson ruined JSD's career by playing him at 13. Etc. Forrester was the best 8 never to win 30 caps, and Croft was never a luxury giraffe. If Tom Rees had stayed fit we'd have won 2 more world cups

Tom Rees. Fine fine player. Real shame.

sure was, it was a sad end to a very promising career.

[Mikey Brown]

Who the fuck is Sid?

[p/d]

Who the fuck is Sid?

Syd Lawrence Big Band Orchestra............... only Oakboy and Banquo would be able to name a few well known hits

[Mellsblue]

Who the fuck is Sid?

Syd Lawrence Big Band Orchestra............... only Oakboy and Banquo would be able to name a few well known hits

In their defence, there was little else other than Big Band for entertainment in those final years of the WWII.

[Oakboy]

Who the fuck is Sid?

Syd Lawrence Big Band Orchestra............... only Oakboy and Banquo would be able to name a few well known hits

In their defence, there was little else other than Big Band for entertainment in those final years of the WWII.

Ah, the old 'Light Programme' . . . . Wirelesses (radios) were like cupboards and took several minutes to emit a sound as the valves warmed up. Now, I get a sophisticated sound from a smartphone (through my hearing aids!).

[Banquo]

Who the fuck is Sid?

Syd Lawrence Big Band Orchestra............... only Oakboy and Banquo would be able to name a few well known hits

actually David (Syd) Lawrence, England fast bowler.

Only the really nerdy would remember that he was nicknamed after the 1970's revival big band lead by the original Syd.

[Which Tyler]

For me, Syd will always be Barrett.

But I'm glad that someone's explained the reference for these parts. I'd got that it was Lawrence, but not the why. I do remember David Lawrence, and I remember his knee cap splitting mid-delivery; but I'd never have remembered he was called Syd (though it does ring a bell)

[Banquo]

For me, Syd will always be Barrett.

But I'm glad that someone's explained the reference for these parts. I'd got that it was Lawrence, but not the why. I do remember David Lawrence, and I remember his knee cap splitting mid-delivery; but I'd never have remembered he was called Syd (though it does ring a bell)

Good call on Syd Barrett.

And yep. David Syd Lawrence did indeed split his knee.

[morepork]

Syd Lawrence Big Band Orchestra............... only Oakboy and Banquo would be able to name a few well known hits

In their defence, there was little else other than Big Band for entertainment in those final years of the WWII.

Ah, the old 'Light Programme' . . . . Wirelesses (radios) were like cupboards and took several minutes to emit a sound as the valves warmed up. Now, I get a sophisticated sound from a smartphone (through my hearing aids!).

Classic.

[Sandydragon]

I thought you'd bite. I have not forgotten your first lecture on the subject - can it really be 18 years ago? I was Dorset06 so that was the year I first posted to get acquainted with my erroneous thinking!

Now you're making me realise that I've been posting on this forum for 17 or 18 years!!! Damn.

Still think George Lowe should have played for England

Convex didn't like him

...and Anthony Allen should have got more caps. Robinson ruined JSD's career by playing him at 13. Etc. Forrester was the best 8 never to win 30 caps, and Croft was never a luxury giraffe. If Tom Rees had stayed fit we'd have won 2 more world cups

That nickname really did stick.

[Mikey Brown]

I felt like I was missing something on Ojomoh so looked him up.

This has to be one of the oddest highlights reels I've ever seen, aside from the music it has him fluffing kicks, throwing interceptions, one massively forward pass and what looks like a botched grounding where he bounces the ball off his face. There's a fantastic break at the beginning and then you realise it's Ollie Lawrence.



I'm not meaning to shit on the guy, he does look fast and full of energy, but this didn't really help me understand his place in the England squad. I do remember being impressed by a game he played on the wing a season or two back though.

[fivepointer]

He's a talent. When he clicks he really is very good. He's got pace, good hands, vision and fast feet. There are moments when he does things and you mumble, "jeez Max WTF was that,...." Remove those and we have a real player on our hands.
I'm really encouraged he's been retained in the senior squad.

[Oakboy]

He's a talent. When he clicks he really is very good. He's got pace, good hands, vision and fast feet. There are moments when he does things and you mumble, "jeez Max WTF was that,...." Remove those and we have a real player on our hands.
I'm really encouraged he's been retained in the senior squad.

Will he ever be a consistent 'right thing, right time, right place' merchant? He has a fine set of physical skills but . . .

[Banquo]

He's a talent. When he clicks he really is very good. He's got pace, good hands, vision and fast feet. There are moments when he does things and you mumble, "jeez Max WTF was that,...." Remove those and we have a real player on our hands.
I'm really encouraged he's been retained in the senior squad.

Like 12t with gas.

[p/d]

I felt like I was missing something on Ojomoh so looked him up.

This has to be one of the oddest highlights reels I've ever seen, aside from the music it has him fluffing kicks, throwing interceptions, one massively forward pass and what looks like a botched grounding where he bounces the ball off his face. There's a fantastic break at the beginning and then you realise it's Ollie Lawrence.



I'm not meaning to shit on the guy, he does look fast and full of energy, but this didn't really help me understand his place in the England squad. I do remember being impressed by a game he played on the wing a season or two back though.

The pass to Farrell was class, and his part in Muir's bit of magic was, well, a pass.

Funny how the art of passing now makes a highlights reel.

[FKAS]

Max Ojomoh a less good Joe Marchant.

[16th man]

Max Ojomoh a less good Joe Marchant.

Yeah, but, y'know, think of his ceiling.

His ceiling is definitely to ge a slightly better Joe Marchant.

[Spiffy]

He's a talent. When he clicks he really is very good. He's got pace, good hands, vision and fast feet. There are moments when he does things and you mumble, "jeez Max WTF was that,...." Remove those and we have a real player on our hands.
I'm really encouraged he's been retained in the senior squad.

He has a nice little touch of the maverick about his play, which I like, but Shattered Beak probably doesn't. Playing with Russell at Bath will be good for his development.

[FKAS]

He's a talent. When he clicks he really is very good. He's got pace, good hands, vision and fast feet. There are moments when he does things and you mumble, "jeez Max WTF was that,...." Remove those and we have a real player on our hands.
I'm really encouraged he's been retained in the senior squad.

He has a nice little touch of the maverick about his play, which I like, but Shattered Beak probably doesn't. Playing with Russell at Bath will be good for his development.

The same head coach who actively recruited Freddie Burns doesn't like mavericks?

Skimpy Bikini doesn't mind taking risks as long as they are done in the opponents third of the pitch. He's not really one for encouraging his players to chip and chase from their own 22 for instance.

[SixAndAHalf]

This may have been shared on another thread but worth a watch for insight on Borthwicks plan:

[Puja]

This may have been shared on another thread but worth a watch for insight on Borthwicks plan:

Posted on Friday night. There's someone that gets to be smug about calling it. Hope he's right about the long-term.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Ian McGeechan, in the DT mid-week, repeated his contention that the Celtic countries live in fear of England finally getting their act together - they would simply be unable to match English resources.