Quins v Bath

[FKAS]

Fin looks like a young George Ford but better off the kicking tee (Ford improved a lot off the tee as he got a bit older). Marcus is more individually skillful, a more rounded Cipriani without the off field shenanigans.

Fin will find it harder to take the bench spot if Ford remains at 10 because Marcus has the ability to drop into 15 if required and that is a favoured Borthwick tactic to change things up. It'll be interesting to see what Borthwick does going into the summer tour. Be good to see Fin get another shot at international rugby Vs Japan.

[Which Tyler]

Marcus has all the individual skills, and audacity to use them, but still needs his SH to be the game manager, and still seems to have specific requirements in team-mate to get the best out of him.
Finn is about getting the best out of his team-mates, and gives much freer reign for his coaches to set up the rest of the team.


Equally, judging based on one weekend is simply a terrible idea.
Had you done that on a different week, then it could have been night and day the other way around.

Even this weekend - I really don't know how you came to that conclusion.
Fin controlled the game against the (next) best team in the league, and made sure they were always comfortable (21 points up with 2 minutes to play when he went off).
This weekend, Marcus delivered an individual sucker punch (great for his highlight reel) against an error-strewn and fragile opponent, and then exploited a few free gifts, and allowed his opponents to come right back in when the match should have been dead in the water, and come within a ref's decision of losing.

Having watched them both this weekend, I'm in no doubt whatsoever who I'd want pulling the strings in a high-pressure game with an opponent not giving away any free gifts.

[Mellsblue]

As you say, making judgments based off one weekend is ridiculous (only for you to then do exactly that).
This time last week Farrell had looked great in guiding his tan to a record win against a team near the top of the league and F Smith had guided his team to big loss versus a team in the bottom half of the table…

[Oakboy]

As you say, making judgments based off one weekend is ridiculous (only for you to then do exactly that).
This time last week Farrell had looked great against the team at top of the league and F Smith had guided his team to big loss versus a team in the bottom half of the table…

I think the point is broader than that. Outplaying Farrell and Russell is a current indicator of what they are capable of. Just examples, but Marcus's raw pace and Fin's accuracy of tackle are attributes that we need but have not seen at FH recently.

[p/d]

All we can hope is that come the Autumn both are ahead of Ford.

Mind you after today I’m sure one pundit will earmark Skinner as a bolter for the Luons

[Which Tyler]

As you say, making judgments based off one weekend is ridiculous (only for you to then do exactly that).

I believe it's called "illustrating the point"

[FKAS]

All we can hope is that come the Autumn both are ahead of Ford.

Ford was good in the Six Nations though even with one crappy display off the tee. If he remains at that level then the young guys need to push him out, I don't think we need to necessarily rush that process.

[Puja]

All we can hope is that come the Autumn both are ahead of Ford.

Ford was good in the Six Nations though even with one crappy display off the tee. If he remains at that level then the young guys need to push him out, I don't think we need to necessarily rush that process.

The "problem"*, as it were, is that we've got three 10s at such a high level of quality that it's very hard to tell who is best, and they can't all play, which means only the one on the international pitch can prove himself at any given time. I'm actually kinda leaning toward a Smith/Smith double-act - MSmith did look very good against France and it allows us to play the two 10s gameplan that we like without compromising the centres (and also gives a ready-made injury cover in Furbank being able to play the same kind of 15). Plus I think 15 suits MSmith at international level - he gets to have at least one general inside him and can pick and choose when he enters the line, as well as being able to attack weaker defences in space in the 13 channel, rather than always having to be first receiver.

Hard lines on Steward, as I don't see a route back into international colours if we commit to that route, but I think it's the best use of our talent.

Puja


*Sympathies to the Welsh who would murder to have that kind of problem at 10.

[Which Tyler]

+1

[p/d]

+2

[Which Tyler]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 21243.html

"The RFU Professional Game Match Officials Team (PGMOT) acknowledge and apologise for an error during the Gallagher Premiership match between Harlequins v Bath where a yellow card sanction resulted in Irne Herbst returning to the pitch approximately three minutes too soon.

"We would like to apologise to both teams for this mistake. As is the usual process the PGMOT will review all games to ensure continued improvement and learnings. The result of the match remains final."

So yup, 4th official error.

Quite right that the result remains final (I would ask "was anyone questioning that?" but then I remembered that Ruck and Planet Rugby exist - and they seem to think that any match with any controversy should at least be replayed)


I'm sure Harlequins are very grateful for the apology.

[Mikey Brown]

Having watched both Smiths this weekend, I need some convincing that SB had his FH order right at the end of the 6N rather than in the planned selection at the start. Which of them is No1 and which No 2 is the argument.

Were they even both available at the same point? I thought Marcus was injured at the beginning and Fin towards the end?

Ford grew in to his role, after a pretty underwhelming start, as the team started to gel.

It was said that we were due to start with both Smiths in the 23 but I’m not convinced, given how much of a role in coaching the attack Ford seemed to have.

[Adam_P]

As you say, making judgments based off one weekend is ridiculous (only for you to then do exactly that).
This time last week Farrell had looked great in guiding his tan to a record win against a team near the top of the league and F Smith had guided his team to big loss versus a team in the bottom half of the table…

I'd say Fin stood out as one of very few decent performances in the Saints team last weekend.

[Mellsblue]

As you say, making judgments based off one weekend is ridiculous (only for you to then do exactly that).

I believe it's called "illustrating the point"

This:
‘Having watched them both this weekend, I'm in no doubt whatsoever who I'd want pulling the strings in a high-pressure game with an opponent not giving away any free gifts.’
seemed more than illustration but I’ve obviously taken it in the wrong context.

[Mellsblue]

As you say, making judgments based off one weekend is ridiculous (only for you to then do exactly that).
This time last week Farrell had looked great in guiding his tan to a record win against a team near the top of the league and F Smith had guided his team to big loss versus a team in the bottom half of the table…

I'd say Fin stood out as one of very few decent performances in the Saints team last weekend.

Perhaps but if M Smith ‘allowed his opponents to come right back’ then F Smith must’ve had an unmitigated disaster. *insert tongue in cheek emoji*

[FKAS]

Having watched both Smiths this weekend, I need some convincing that SB had his FH order right at the end of the 6N rather than in the planned selection at the start. Which of them is No1 and which No 2 is the argument.

Were they even both available at the same point? I thought Marcus was injured at the beginning and Fin towards the end?

Ford grew in to his role, after a pretty underwhelming start, as the team started to gel.

It was said that we were due to start with both Smiths in the 23 but I’m not convinced, given how much of a role in coaching the attack Ford seemed to have.

I suspect Borthwick would have wanted to give Marcus the chance to stake a claim at 10 early doors knowing he could have a slightly easier run against Italy and Wales. Ford was probably intended to be the fallback safety blanket.

Although the team was generally underwhelming in attack early doors I don't think that was Ford. I suppose it's the limitation of Ford at 30 in that he's isn't going to make individual attacking interventions if the game plan is suffering. Managing the game and playing the system very well more his skillset.

I would say that moving towards a Smith/Smith combo is a matter of time but they'll need to push Ford out first. Borthwick will have set them challenges to accomplish that.

I agree with Puja, having the playmaker at fullback very much suits us and it's harsh on Steward but he's likely to be an unplayed member of the wider squad unless he can develop his game. Against the likes of South Africa he might come back in just because their kicking game is such a weapon.

[16th man]

Having watched both Smiths this weekend, I need some convincing that SB had his FH order right at the end of the 6N rather than in the planned selection at the start. Which of them is No1 and which No 2 is the argument.

Were they even both available at the same point? I thought Marcus was injured at the beginning and Fin towards the end?

Ford grew in to his role, after a pretty underwhelming start, as the team started to gel.

As the game plan and team evolved to be more aligned with Ford's strengths, he looked better. If this is the way we want England to be playing, I can't see why there's a seeming desperation from some quarters to replace him in the team.

[Which Tyler]

seemed more than illustration but I’ve obviously taken it in the wrong context.

In which case, my communication error