Bath v Sarries; Friday night

[Captainhaircut]

Tad harsh on Farrell I think (and I am not a fan at all).

His work for the second try to abandon the planned drop call was very good. Identified opportunity and put in a lovely chip.

Thought he kicked well and when the limited opportunity came to attack he had some lovely touches.

No brain fades in defence, no intercepts, no throwing the ball on the floor off his left hand, didn’t have a nightmare off the tee. My Farrell bingo card was empty.

[Which Tyler]

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/b ... st-3029862

England rugby star Billy Vunipola ‘tasered’ during Spanish bar arrest
Eight officers apprehend Saracens forward after he threatened staff and customers with bottles and chairs, according to local reports

Innocent until proven guilty etc

[FKAS]

So he's not a good drinker and chose to go on a bit of a bender on his week off. Probably not a good idea.

[TheDasher]

I feel like an old man with what I'm about to write - I mean a young sports star gets drunk and goes mad in a bar, it's not like it hasn't happened before, nobody died etc.

BUT - I don't like Vunipola, having just read his apology, he's essentially saying "there was no fighting, I've paid my fine, said sorry and that's it" - he just comes across as incredibly arrogant. What about the people who own the bar, the mess, the police officers having do deal with him etc, if you watch the video it's pretty disgraceful. He has been difficult with management before, his performances on the pitch for England over the past few years have been lazy and disinterested and frankly he seems like he needs someone to tell him to wind his neck in.

But as I said, I appreciate I sound like an old man and worse things happen at sea and all that.

[Mellsblue]

If I spent two years off the booze and then went on a weekend away with my rugby team I’d probably end up being tasered as well.
A nothing story for me with the only issue being if Sarries feel he’s been a dick on their time.
Would’ve loved to have seen the look on the police man/woman’s face when he/she entered the bar only to see that behemoth.

[TheDasher]

If I spent two years off the booze and then went on a weekend away with my rugby team I’d probably end up being tasered as well.
A nothing story for me with the only issue being if Sarries feel he’s been a dick on their time.
Would’ve loved to have seen the look on the police man/woman’s face when he/she entered the bar only see that behemoth.

Yep but you're not a professional athlete (sorry if you are) and you're not paid to be one, and you're not 20 stone and intimidating (sorry if you are) and you haven't come across as being a bit of a brat in the past (sorry if you have).

Not the end of the world I know.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah he's always seemed like a tosser, or at least a moron.

[Oakboy]

Yeah he's always seemed like a tosser, or at least a moron.

He's definitely no loss to the English game.

[Mellsblue]

If I spent two years off the booze and then went on a weekend away with my rugby team I’d probably end up being tasered as well.
A nothing story for me with the only issue being if Sarries feel he’s been a dick on their time.
Would’ve loved to have seen the look on the police man/woman’s face when he/she entered the bar only see that behemoth.

Yep but you're not a professional athlete (sorry if you are) and you're not paid to be one, and you're not 20 stone and intimidating (sorry if you are) and you haven't come across as being a bit of a brat in the past (sorry if you have).

Not the end of the world I know.

Three possibilities and it’s the uncool one that’s true.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah he's always seemed like a tosser, or at least a moron.

He's definitely no loss to the English game.

Certainly not at this point (and probably not for a long time now) but that’s not to say tossers and morons don’t have a lot to offer to sport.

[Puja]

I feel like an old man with what I'm about to write - I mean a young sports star gets drunk and goes mad in a bar, it's not like it hasn't happened before, nobody died etc.

BUT - I don't like Vunipola, having just read his apology, he's essentially saying "there was no fighting, I've paid my fine, said sorry and that's it" - he just comes across as incredibly arrogant. What about the people who own the bar, the mess, the police officers having do deal with him etc, if you watch the video it's pretty disgraceful. He has been difficult with management before, his performances on the pitch for England over the past few years have been lazy and disinterested and frankly he seems like he needs someone to tell him to wind his neck in.

But as I said, I appreciate I sound like an old man and worse things happen at sea and all that.

I'm wondering how much of a problem is drinking actually has been over the last 6 years. Some of the snider reporting on this has included asides like, "Vunipola gave an interview in 2019 saying that he had quit alcohol completely. A month later, he was disciplined for missing a team meeting after a big night out," trying to imply he's been mendacious, but it reads to me like someone who may be struggling to cope with a problem. While one doesn't want to be an armchair diagnostician, it would make a lot of sense out of his fluctuations in form, weight, and perceived involvement and effort, and one doesn't just get to the stage of drinking heavily enough to be tased by the Spanish police out of nowhere.

If that is the case, he's got my sympathies and needs help, rather than condemnation. I also wonder where he's going to be playing next season - when Japanese and French clubs are trumpeting their big name signings (and sometimes their "big name" signings), there has been absolute silence on the future of the Vunipolae - if he's struggling for a contract, then that's probably not helping any problems he has (and this will not have helped him in his search for a new contract).

Thought this was an unusually sensitive take from the Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... est-taser/

Puja

[Oakboy]

I feel like an old man with what I'm about to write - I mean a young sports star gets drunk and goes mad in a bar, it's not like it hasn't happened before, nobody died etc.

BUT - I don't like Vunipola, having just read his apology, he's essentially saying "there was no fighting, I've paid my fine, said sorry and that's it" - he just comes across as incredibly arrogant. What about the people who own the bar, the mess, the police officers having do deal with him etc, if you watch the video it's pretty disgraceful. He has been difficult with management before, his performances on the pitch for England over the past few years have been lazy and disinterested and frankly he seems like he needs someone to tell him to wind his neck in.

But as I said, I appreciate I sound like an old man and worse things happen at sea and all that.

I'm wondering how much of a problem is drinking actually has been over the last 6 years. Some of the snider reporting on this has included asides like, "Vunipola gave an interview in 2019 saying that he had quit alcohol completely. A month later, he was disciplined for missing a team meeting after a big night out," trying to imply he's been mendacious, but it reads to me like someone who may be struggling to cope with a problem. While one doesn't want to be an armchair diagnostician, it would make a lot of sense out of his fluctuations in form, weight, and perceived involvement and effort, and one doesn't just get to the stage of drinking heavily enough to be tased by the Spanish police out of nowhere.

If that is the case, he's got my sympathies and needs help, rather than condemnation. I also wonder where he's going to be playing next season - when Japanese and French clubs are trumpeting their big name signings (and sometimes their "big name" signings), there has been absolute silence on the future of the Vunipolae - if he's struggling for a contract, then that's probably not helping any problems he has (and this will not have helped him in his search for a new contract).

Thought this was an unusually sensitive take from the Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... est-taser/

Puja

Puja, do you have the same degree of sympathy for professionals? I'd imagine that Saracens have all appropriate advice/medical facilities - rather more than was on offer to the amateur jamboree players, for example. I've binged with enthusiasm in my distant past but I am undecided on my sympathy stance when a player is being paid to behave/conform. Had I been offered a lucrative career in professional sport with a condition that I give up alcohol for 15 years, I'd have signed like a shot. Being relatively talentless, maybe that is easy for me to say, but it also leaves me struggling to understand the 'treachery' of the rule-breakers. Surely, there are better, legitimate options for relaxation of body and mind??

[Which Tyler]

Not wanting to speak for Puja, but...
I'm pretty sure BVunipola is a professional; surely sympathy was in the "if suffering from addiction / mental health problems" - if so, then appropriate medical facilities are unlikely to be particularly available at the club, as it's a completely different speciality to the medical staff around a rugby club.

You can't just sign away an addiction / mental health problem, however large the contract.

[jimKRFC]

If I spent two years off the booze and then went on a weekend away with my rugby team I’d probably end up being tasered as well.
A nothing story for me with the only issue being if Sarries feel he’s been a dick on their time.
Would’ve loved to have seen the look on the police man/woman’s face when he/she entered the bar only to see that behemoth.

Looking at some of the comments on the Sarries unofficial board, then the "off booze for two years" thing is a load of rubbish. Apparently he's regularly seen out and the worse for drink in St Albans.

Itoje now cited as well.

Fingers crossed both are missing the Bristol game!

[Mr Mwenda]

I feel like an old man with what I'm about to write - I mean a young sports star gets drunk and goes mad in a bar, it's not like it hasn't happened before, nobody died etc.

BUT - I don't like Vunipola, having just read his apology, he's essentially saying "there was no fighting, I've paid my fine, said sorry and that's it" - he just comes across as incredibly arrogant. What about the people who own the bar, the mess, the police officers having do deal with him etc, if you watch the video it's pretty disgraceful. He has been difficult with management before, his performances on the pitch for England over the past few years have been lazy and disinterested and frankly he seems like he needs someone to tell him to wind his neck in.

But as I said, I appreciate I sound like an old man and worse things happen at sea and all that.

I'm wondering how much of a problem is drinking actually has been over the last 6 years. Some of the snider reporting on this has included asides like, "Vunipola gave an interview in 2019 saying that he had quit alcohol completely. A month later, he was disciplined for missing a team meeting after a big night out," trying to imply he's been mendacious, but it reads to me like someone who may be struggling to cope with a problem. While one doesn't want to be an armchair diagnostician, it would make a lot of sense out of his fluctuations in form, weight, and perceived involvement and effort, and one doesn't just get to the stage of drinking heavily enough to be tased by the Spanish police out of nowhere.

If that is the case, he's got my sympathies and needs help, rather than condemnation. I also wonder where he's going to be playing next season - when Japanese and French clubs are trumpeting their big name signings (and sometimes their "big name" signings), there has been absolute silence on the future of the Vunipolae - if he's struggling for a contract, then that's probably not helping any problems he has (and this will not have helped him in his search for a new contract).

Thought this was an unusually sensitive take from the Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... est-taser/

Puja

This - it's really none of my business anyway but he seems to come across as somewhat troubled, at least compared to his brother.

[Mellsblue]

If I spent two years off the booze and then went on a weekend away with my rugby team I’d probably end up being tasered as well.
A nothing story for me with the only issue being if Sarries feel he’s been a dick on their time.
Would’ve loved to have seen the look on the police man/woman’s face when he/she entered the bar only to see that behemoth.

Looking at some of the comments on the Sarries unofficial board, then the "off booze for two years" thing is a load of rubbish. Apparently he's regularly seen out and the worse for drink in St Albans.

Itoje now cited as well.

Fingers crossed both are missing the Bristol game!

Fair enough.

Re Itoje:

https://x.com/charliefelix/status/17852 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

[jimKRFC]

If I spent two years off the booze and then went on a weekend away with my rugby team I’d probably end up being tasered as well.
A nothing story for me with the only issue being if Sarries feel he’s been a dick on their time.
Would’ve loved to have seen the look on the police man/woman’s face when he/she entered the bar only to see that behemoth.

Looking at some of the comments on the Sarries unofficial board, then the "off booze for two years" thing is a load of rubbish. Apparently he's regularly seen out and the worse for drink in St Albans.

Itoje now cited as well.

Fingers crossed both are missing the Bristol game!

Fair enough.

Re Itoje:

https://x.com/charliefelix/status/17852 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

Probably.. at least there's no England game soon or he'd definitely get let off....

[Puja]

I'm wondering how much of a problem is drinking actually has been over the last 6 years. Some of the snider reporting on this has included asides like, "Vunipola gave an interview in 2019 saying that he had quit alcohol completely. A month later, he was disciplined for missing a team meeting after a big night out," trying to imply he's been mendacious, but it reads to me like someone who may be struggling to cope with a problem. While one doesn't want to be an armchair diagnostician, it would make a lot of sense out of his fluctuations in form, weight, and perceived involvement and effort, and one doesn't just get to the stage of drinking heavily enough to be tased by the Spanish police out of nowhere.

If that is the case, he's got my sympathies and needs help, rather than condemnation. I also wonder where he's going to be playing next season - when Japanese and French clubs are trumpeting their big name signings (and sometimes their "big name" signings), there has been absolute silence on the future of the Vunipolae - if he's struggling for a contract, then that's probably not helping any problems he has (and this will not have helped him in his search for a new contract).

Thought this was an unusually sensitive take from the Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... est-taser/

Puja

Puja, do you have the same degree of sympathy for professionals? I'd imagine that Saracens have all appropriate advice/medical facilities - rather more than was on offer to the amateur jamboree players, for example. I've binged with enthusiasm in my distant past but I am undecided on my sympathy stance when a player is being paid to behave/conform. Had I been offered a lucrative career in professional sport with a condition that I give up alcohol for 15 years, I'd have signed like a shot. Being relatively talentless, maybe that is easy for me to say, but it also leaves me struggling to understand the 'treachery' of the rule-breakers. Surely, there are better, legitimate options for relaxation of body and mind??

Not wanting to speak for Puja, but...
I'm pretty sure BVunipola is a professional; surely sympathy was in the "if suffering from addiction / mental health problems" - if so, then appropriate medical facilities are unlikely to be particularly available at the club, as it's a completely different speciality to the medical staff around a rugby club.

You can't just sign away an addiction / mental health problem, however large the contract.

I would say you spoke for me quite well - pretty much what I was going to say.

"I would just stop doing it if it was detrimental to my career/health/prospects," is something that's very easy for a non-addict to say (although I believe it is the current level of care offered on the NHS because methadone costs money). As I said, I don't want to armchair diagnose - it could just be that he's a phenomenal tool. However, if it's causing him problems with his career and he still hasn't been able to cut it out, then that does suggest addiction more than "fancies a tipple".

Looking at some of the comments on the Sarries unofficial board, then the "off booze for two years" thing is a load of rubbish. Apparently he's regularly seen out and the worse for drink in St Albans.

Itoje now cited as well.

Fingers crossed both are missing the Bristol game!

I will note that "internet people said so" is more rumour than fact. It was widely said that he was threatening people with chairs and throwing punches and then it turned out that none of that was true.

I will also note for clarity's sake that Itoje is cited for a tackle in the Bath game. I understand that's what you were saying, but I originally read that as him being involved in the unexpected Spanish exhibition because of the context of the rest of the discussion, so I thought I'd save other readers from a frantic google.

Puja

[Puja]

Re Itoje:

https://x.com/charliefelix/status/17852 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

Yeah, he'll get away with that. Bit of a shame really - I was kinda hoping he'd get a 3-game ban and get a rest till the end of the season.

Puja

[16th man]

Re Itoje:

https://x.com/charliefelix/status/17852 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

Yeah, he'll get away with that. Bit of a shame really - I was kinda hoping he'd get a 3-game ban and get a rest till the end of the season.

Puja

30 mins in, so not really knackered, so he should get 3 games for just how lazy his technique is to be anywhere near a head clash there.

Perfectly lined up for him to smash the guy in the ribs and probably knock the ball loose, but just doesn't even look like he tries to bend.

[FKAS]

Re Itoje:

https://x.com/charliefelix/status/17852 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

Yeah, he'll get away with that. Bit of a shame really - I was kinda hoping he'd get a 3-game ban and get a rest till the end of the season.

Puja

30 mins in, so not really knackered, so he should get 3 games for just how lazy his technique is to be anywhere near a head clash there.

Perfectly lined up for him to smash the guy in the ribs and probably knock the ball loose, but just doesn't even look like he tries to bend.

Can always show it as an educational video to kids, "here's how not to do it"...

I thought he was very lucky to only get yellow at the time.

[jimKRFC]

Itoje cleared.

Not surprised but can't say I agree with it.

Rugby as while is making a pigs ear of head contact with the, apparently, random application of "force to head" issue.

The whole game should have the same rules. So I'd have the sternum tackle for the prem as well. It really hasn't been that hard to adjust to. The way rugby is being managed really does make we wonder why I bother with the game....

[Puja]

The whole game should have the same rules. So I'd have the sternum tackle for the prem as well. It really hasn't been that hard to adjust to.

Agreed!

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Itoje cleared.

Not surprised but can't say I agree with it.

Rugby as while is making a pigs ear of head contact with the, apparently, random application of "force to head" issue.

The whole game should have the same rules. So I'd have the sternum tackle for the prem as well. It really hasn't been that hard to adjust to. The way rugby is being managed really does make we wonder why I bother with the game....

Yeah, the completely arbitrary dismissal of some incidents as not being a "high degree of danger" means it's just as much of a lottery as before.

Some incidents are scrutinised down to the pixel whereas others are brushed away without much consideration. Itoje goes in upright with an aggressive tackle though it may be that he avoided direct head contact, whether by luck or skill I'm not sure. I accept Danny Care's yellow for the tackle on Lawes at the weekend, but he essentially just stood still as a player twice his size flew head first in to him.

[Which Tyler]

Fourth-ed.

This time last year, I felt that we were making some real progress; the sternum height at community level, more-or-less zero tolerance at professional level, smart mouth-guards and saliva tests being trialled.

Then the RWC23 happened, and all precedence from the previous 2-3 years was thrown out; and the sternum height tackles get a low priority trial from WR; and... we're back to the bad old days - but this time, with many, many more people knowing about it.