Scrumhead wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 11:00 am
I rate Steward very highly.
My main reason for suggesting that we persevere with Furbank is partly because of the variety it gives to our attack and partly because it doesn’t make sense to discard it when it’s still in it’s early stages of development.
Conversely, I think we know what Steward’s strengths are. Ideally, we reach a point where it’s a horses for courses selection.
I think the Marcus at 15 thing is all about having that playmaking option whether it be him or Furbank at the back. No one's disputing that's what we need.
Steward can offer more though, he played 10 at school level and 13 at Loughborough Uni (because they wanted him ball in hand more). He shouldn't be standing still and looking at horses for courses selection he should be looking to up skill himself and thinking of it as an arm's race between him and the other 15s. The more strings to his bow the more likely he'll be to get more top stage recognition.
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 7:47 pmSpeaking of Marcus Smith, playing him at 15 is the only thing I don’t really like in your starting XV. Knowing he can do it is a nice option to have but it’s definitely not his best position.
Personally I’d start Fin Smith against Japan and Marcus vs. NZ. I’d stick with Furbank at 15. It’s shown some promise but it’s still early days so I’d keep him there for all three tests.
MSmith is probably the front-runner for 10 (given their contrasting semi-final performances), so it's a bit outre to have him move away from the pivotal position of fly-half
Would Ford not be front runner given his Six Nations and performance against France?
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 7:47 pmSpeaking of Marcus Smith, playing him at 15 is the only thing I don’t really like in your starting XV. Knowing he can do it is a nice option to have but it’s definitely not his best position.
Personally I’d start Fin Smith against Japan and Marcus vs. NZ. I’d stick with Furbank at 15. It’s shown some promise but it’s still early days so I’d keep him there for all three tests.
MSmith is probably the front-runner for 10 (given their contrasting semi-final performances), so it's a bit outre to have him move away from the pivotal position of fly-half
Would Ford not be front runner given his Six Nations and performance against France?
I was thinking about this the other day and the fact that I was probably wrong here - the reporters were exulting over Ford's performance against Saracens, which I only saw 10 minutes of. The problem is that all three of our fly-halves are performing at such a high level that it's hard to pick between them - I think I said in another thread that, "Every time I watch a game with one of them, I come away thinking that that one has just nailed down the England 10 shirt and then another one goes and does better." The problem with that is that I haven't seen much of Ford since the 6N - Sale reached no European knock-outs and, when they're on in the Premiership, they're so often involved in turgid games that I tend to give them a miss.
So I will admit to being underinformed about Ford's recent form and probably biased against him because of that. He is the man in possession and, in a difficult series in NZ, his experience could be pivotal, so you are probably correct.
I'm probably a bigger Ford fan than most but I also give a lot of weighting to international performances and Ford has been generally excellent for England since the start of the World Cup.
I'm not sure MSmith suits the game plan SB wants to play so think it might be Ford until FSmith demands the shirt (or takes an opportunity offered by injury).
A] Ford is the man in possession, and is absolutely playing well enough (club and international) to keep the shirt.
B] The man needs a break - I'd be very tempted to send him to the beach for the summer. If he doesn't get a rest this summer, he never will. He's essentially played 10 years of rugby, straight, without a summer off (excepting injury rehab work), and the only proper pre-seasons he's had, have been RWC warm-up camps. He has a history of playing through niggles, both minor (as everyone else) and big enough to affect his form to an obvious degree.
We won't learn anything new by playing him against Japan or the ABs, even though he gives us a better chance of winning those, and he ought to be central in terms of forwards planning / onfield coaching. We could gain a huge amount by having him spend a couple of months NOT thinking about rugby.
MSmith is probably the front-runner for 10 (given their contrasting semi-final performances), so it's a bit outre to have him move away from the pivotal position of fly-half
Would Ford not be front runner given his Six Nations and performance against France?
I was thinking about this the other day and the fact that I was probably wrong here - the reporters were exulting over Ford's performance against Saracens, which I only saw 10 minutes of. The problem is that all three of our fly-halves are performing at such a high level that it's hard to pick between them - I think I said in another thread that, "Every time I watch a game with one of them, I come away thinking that that one has just nailed down the England 10 shirt and then another one goes and does better." The problem with that is that I haven't seen much of Ford since the 6N - Sale reached no European knock-outs and, when they're on in the Premiership, they're so often involved in turgid games that I tend to give them a miss.
So I will admit to being underinformed about Ford's recent form and probably biased against him because of that. He is the man in possession and, in a difficult series in NZ, his experience could be pivotal, so you are probably correct.
Puja
Ford's 1st ten minutes were truly appalling. Thereafter pretty good, but he really shone...in defence
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 5:28 pm
A] Ford is the man in possession, and is absolutely playing well enough (club and international) to keep the shirt.
B] The man needs a break - I'd be very tempted to send him to the beach for the summer. If he doesn't get a rest this summer, he never will. He's essentially played 10 years of rugby, straight, without a summer off (excepting injury rehab work), and the only proper pre-seasons he's had, have been RWC warm-up camps. He has a history of playing through niggles, both minor (as everyone else) and big enough to affect his form to an obvious degree.
We won't learn anything new by playing him against Japan or the ABs, even though he gives us a better chance of winning those, and he ought to be central in terms of forwards planning / onfield coaching. We could gain a huge amount by having him spend a couple of months NOT thinking about rugby.
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 5:28 pm
A] Ford is the man in possession, and is absolutely playing well enough (club and international) to keep the shirt.
B] The man needs a break - I'd be very tempted to send him to the beach for the summer. If he doesn't get a rest this summer, he never will. He's essentially played 10 years of rugby, straight, without a summer off (excepting injury rehab work), and the only proper pre-seasons he's had, have been RWC warm-up camps. He has a history of playing through niggles, both minor (as everyone else) and big enough to affect his form to an obvious degree.
We won't learn anything new by playing him against Japan or the ABs, even though he gives us a better chance of winning those, and he ought to be central in terms of forwards planning / onfield coaching. We could gain a huge amount by having him spend a couple of months NOT thinking about rugby.
In fairness, he does get a bit of a break every four years when the Lions come around. Might change next year now that there is someone who's not Gatland in charge, although no doubt that just sets the stage for OWEN FARRELL, LIONS CAPTAIN.
I don't think he'll be keen on taking a break over this summer though. I think he'll be looking at his chasing pack and thinking that if he gives up his starting shirt, he might lose it permanently.
Even then, he's usually touring the Americas with England in Lions summers.
Of course he won't be keen to take the summer off - that means he's a relatively normal sportsman, not that it isn't the right thing for him to do (and yes, he may lose his spot - what a fantastic position that would leave England in - 2 FHs showing better than Ford at international level).
I'd agree Ford knows that he's unlikely to make the next world cup and that his chances with England will run out sooner rather than later. It's his last chance to tour NZ and with the All Blacks in transition potentially a chance to claim a famous victory.
Ford had the summer off before Tigers won the league. That was partly injury related but he was fully rehabbed in time to have a full pre season. Unless Farrell has given him the nod about Lions selection and suggested a summer off I can't see him opting for it. Garland's refusal to pick him on prior tours will be playing on his mind. It's his last chance to tour with the Lions next summer also.
I'm not sold on Marcus Smith's form. Quins look incredible in attack but rarely control a game. I think Borthwick is more than a little open to having an attacking 10 but game management is likely to be non-negotiable. Smith isn't playing badly by any stretch of the imagination but is he showing enough? I suspect he'll get the chance Vs Japan to try and convince the England set up he's ready.
Based on SB's original 6N plan (reportedly), MS and FS were 10/22. Injury to MS gave Ford his chance to leap-frog from 3rd to 1st choice and he took it. That must mean, presumably, that Ford's is the shirt to lose now.
Other than a win in the European competition perhaps (now impossible), can club form change SB's mind? I doubt it. Ford will start v NZ.
FKAS wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 6:42 pm
I'd agree Ford knows that he's unlikely to make the next world cup and that his chances with England will run out sooner rather than later. It's his last chance to tour NZ and with the All Blacks in transition potentially a chance to claim a famous victory.
Ford had the summer off before Tigers won the league. That was partly injury related but he was fully rehabbed in time to have a full pre season. Unless Farrell has given him the nod about Lions selection and suggested a summer off I can't see him opting for it. Garland's refusal to pick him on prior tours will be playing on his mind. It's his last chance to tour with the Lions next summer also.
I'm not sold on Marcus Smith's form. Quins look incredible in attack but rarely control a game. I think Borthwick is more than a little open to having an attacking 10 but game management is likely to be non-negotiable. Smith isn't playing badly by any stretch of the imagination but is he showing enough? I suspect he'll get the chance Vs Japan to try and convince the England set up he's ready.
I’m not sure I agree with the opening statement there. Ford will be 34 at the time of the 2027 RWC. Unless he starts becoming more injury prone over the next few seasons, I don’t think that’s too old for a 10 with his style of play.
The ‘game management’ piece often gets repeated about Marcus Smith. Personally, I think it’s a bit of a lazy characterisation that only has some element of truth. Quins play in a specific style which rarely asks him to adopt a more conservative and controlled approach. It doesn’t mean he can’t do it and on the occasions where that is the game plan, he is very capable of executing. I’m not suggesting it’s his primary skill, but I do get irked when I see the same narrative repeated.
Apparently there will be a training squad named on Sunday from the players not involved in the play-offs. Various rumours of names include James Harper and Ibitoye. Will be interesting to see who's invited - even if it's not that informative about the actual tour squad, it'll give an idea of who's in the wider mix (plus Soapy Bubblebath's got form of being swayed by a player doing well at training, so any long-shots who get to train will have the chance to break in if they impress).
FKAS wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 6:42 pm
I'd agree Ford knows that he's unlikely to make the next world cup and that his chances with England will run out sooner rather than later. It's his last chance to tour NZ and with the All Blacks in transition potentially a chance to claim a famous victory.
Ford had the summer off before Tigers won the league. That was partly injury related but he was fully rehabbed in time to have a full pre season. Unless Farrell has given him the nod about Lions selection and suggested a summer off I can't see him opting for it. Garland's refusal to pick him on prior tours will be playing on his mind. It's his last chance to tour with the Lions next summer also.
I'm not sold on Marcus Smith's form. Quins look incredible in attack but rarely control a game. I think Borthwick is more than a little open to having an attacking 10 but game management is likely to be non-negotiable. Smith isn't playing badly by any stretch of the imagination but is he showing enough? I suspect he'll get the chance Vs Japan to try and convince the England set up he's ready.
I’m not sure I agree with the opening statement there. Ford will be 34 at the time of the 2027 RWC. Unless he starts becoming more injury prone over the next few seasons, I don’t think that’s too old for a 10 with his style of play.
The ‘game management’ piece often gets repeated about Marcus Smith. Personally, I think it’s a bit of a lazy characterisation that only has some element of truth. Quins play in a specific style which rarely asks him to adopt a more conservative and controlled approach. It doesn’t mean he can’t do it and on the occasions where that is the game plan, he is very capable of executing. I’m not suggesting it’s his primary skill, but I do get irked when I see the same narrative repeated.
To be honest I think the Quins style of play is often rolled out as an excuse for Smith not exerting more control over games or trying to force play when it's not quite on (same with Danny Care). He is entirely capable of playing territory and allowing Quins to play further up the field but seems unable to do so consistently. Given Quins drop Smith into the backfield with Green when the opposition look to clear their lines providing possibly the most lethal counter attack threat in the league in it's clearly part of their plan. We know Quins kick on the front foot as Nick Evans is more than slightly savvy when it comes to a kicking game plan.
Ford has also had two or three achilles injuries now. He's lost some pace because of it. By the next world cup Fin Smith, who is like a younger Ford, is going to be mid twenties and into his prime. Whilst he could make the next world cup, I suspect he won't with the two Smiths plus the possibility of other young guns coming through (Orlando Bailey would be my guess).
FKAS wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 6:42 pm
I'd agree Ford knows that he's unlikely to make the next world cup and that his chances with England will run out sooner rather than later. It's his last chance to tour NZ and with the All Blacks in transition potentially a chance to claim a famous victory.
Ford had the summer off before Tigers won the league. That was partly injury related but he was fully rehabbed in time to have a full pre season. Unless Farrell has given him the nod about Lions selection and suggested a summer off I can't see him opting for it. Garland's refusal to pick him on prior tours will be playing on his mind. It's his last chance to tour with the Lions next summer also.
I'm not sold on Marcus Smith's form. Quins look incredible in attack but rarely control a game. I think Borthwick is more than a little open to having an attacking 10 but game management is likely to be non-negotiable. Smith isn't playing badly by any stretch of the imagination but is he showing enough? I suspect he'll get the chance Vs Japan to try and convince the England set up he's ready.
I’m not sure I agree with the opening statement there. Ford will be 34 at the time of the 2027 RWC. Unless he starts becoming more injury prone over the next few seasons, I don’t think that’s too old for a 10 with his style of play.
The ‘game management’ piece often gets repeated about Marcus Smith. Personally, I think it’s a bit of a lazy characterisation that only has some element of truth. Quins play in a specific style which rarely asks him to adopt a more conservative and controlled approach. It doesn’t mean he can’t do it and on the occasions where that is the game plan, he is very capable of executing. I’m not suggesting it’s his primary skill, but I do get irked when I see the same narrative repeated.
I think Marcus should be the starting FH. IMO, he can do everything the other two do - regardless of which skill aspects are each individual's claimed specialities. The deciding factor for me is simply the raw pace in his legs. If he is used properly at international level he offers an option that the other two cannot provide. To claim that Ford or FS get the shirt because of other perceived marginal advantages discards the supreme game-changing threat that can be the difference between defeat and victory.
As ever with selection, going to 'who the opposition least want to face' is the crunch and I think it is MS.
SB is set to stick with Ford, I'd guess. If I was MS I'd refuse any ideas of him being at 15 and concentrate on getting the 22 shirt. I suspect his best route to the 10 shirt is to come off the bench and change a game.
FKAS wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 6:42 pm
I'd agree Ford knows that he's unlikely to make the next world cup and that his chances with England will run out sooner rather than later. It's his last chance to tour NZ and with the All Blacks in transition potentially a chance to claim a famous victory.
Ford had the summer off before Tigers won the league. That was partly injury related but he was fully rehabbed in time to have a full pre season. Unless Farrell has given him the nod about Lions selection and suggested a summer off I can't see him opting for it. Garland's refusal to pick him on prior tours will be playing on his mind. It's his last chance to tour with the Lions next summer also.
I'm not sold on Marcus Smith's form. Quins look incredible in attack but rarely control a game. I think Borthwick is more than a little open to having an attacking 10 but game management is likely to be non-negotiable. Smith isn't playing badly by any stretch of the imagination but is he showing enough? I suspect he'll get the chance Vs Japan to try and convince the England set up he's ready.
I’m not sure I agree with the opening statement there. Ford will be 34 at the time of the 2027 RWC. Unless he starts becoming more injury prone over the next few seasons, I don’t think that’s too old for a 10 with his style of play.
The ‘game management’ piece often gets repeated about Marcus Smith. Personally, I think it’s a bit of a lazy characterisation that only has some element of truth. Quins play in a specific style which rarely asks him to adopt a more conservative and controlled approach. It doesn’t mean he can’t do it and on the occasions where that is the game plan, he is very capable of executing. I’m not suggesting it’s his primary skill, but I do get irked when I see the same narrative repeated.
To be honest I think the Quins style of play is often rolled out as an excuse for Smith not exerting more control over games or trying to force play when it's not quite on (same with Danny Care). He is entirely capable of playing territory and allowing Quins to play further up the field but seems unable to do so consistently. Given Quins drop Smith into the backfield with Green when the opposition look to clear their lines providing possibly the most lethal counter attack threat in the league in it's clearly part of their plan. We know Quins kick on the front foot as Nick Evans is more than slightly savvy when it comes to a kicking game plan.
Ford has also had two or three achilles injuries now. He's lost some pace because of it. By the next world cup Fin Smith, who is like a younger Ford, is going to be mid twenties and into his prime. Whilst he could make the next world cup, I suspect he won't with the two Smiths plus the possibility of other young guns coming through (Orlando Bailey would be my guess).
I wouldn't be against Quins exerting a bit more control on games at times, but if you listen to basically any of the coaches talking about strategy it's pretty much to create chaos as often as possible. It's a bit like trying to judge England players on the near-meaningless Barbarians game every year.
I'm torn on Ford. He is certainly a couple of steps slower than he was, and while running isn't the core of his game it does start to show if we don't have any sort of running threat in that channel.
I’m not sure I agree with the opening statement there. Ford will be 34 at the time of the 2027 RWC. Unless he starts becoming more injury prone over the next few seasons, I don’t think that’s too old for a 10 with his style of play.
The ‘game management’ piece often gets repeated about Marcus Smith. Personally, I think it’s a bit of a lazy characterisation that only has some element of truth. Quins play in a specific style which rarely asks him to adopt a more conservative and controlled approach. It doesn’t mean he can’t do it and on the occasions where that is the game plan, he is very capable of executing. I’m not suggesting it’s his primary skill, but I do get irked when I see the same narrative repeated.
To be honest I think the Quins style of play is often rolled out as an excuse for Smith not exerting more control over games or trying to force play when it's not quite on (same with Danny Care). He is entirely capable of playing territory and allowing Quins to play further up the field but seems unable to do so consistently. Given Quins drop Smith into the backfield with Green when the opposition look to clear their lines providing possibly the most lethal counter attack threat in the league in it's clearly part of their plan. We know Quins kick on the front foot as Nick Evans is more than slightly savvy when it comes to a kicking game plan.
Ford has also had two or three achilles injuries now. He's lost some pace because of it. By the next world cup Fin Smith, who is like a younger Ford, is going to be mid twenties and into his prime. Whilst he could make the next world cup, I suspect he won't with the two Smiths plus the possibility of other young guns coming through (Orlando Bailey would be my guess).
I wouldn't be against Quins exerting a bit more control on games at times, but if you listen to basically any of the coaches talking about strategy it's pretty much to create chaos as often as possible. It's a bit like trying to judge England players on the near-meaningless Barbarians game every year.
Not really. The Baabaas is a one off game where the squad is thrown together with little prep time. Quins is a club side that has had roughly the same core squad for a number of years and a fairly consistent coaching setup. They finished the season with the same win/loss record as the dumpster fire that was Leicester Tigers in 2023/24.
Playing at pace and with a degree of freedom is great, creating the illusion of chaos is a great attacking weapon but no professional team plays off the cuff carnage. The systems will be there. We know that Nick Evans likes to kick on the front foot etc. Courtney Lawes made a point on a podcast the other week that Saints supposed structureless attack is the opposite and individual experimentation is frowned upon. Everything comes from the systems and structure because that's where the support lines and next phase all flow from.
Okay. You caught me exaggerating with the Baabaas thing, fair enough.
I'm not claiming they are just winging it the entire time or don't have any systems in place, but I don't think the very deliberate plan to break the game up and counter attack fits with people's idea of 'game management' or the 10 'taking control of a game'.
I don't know what point you're making with Quins underwhelming win/loss ratio. Is that Smith's fault? For what it's worth I think Care has been playing like a drain for large portions of it.
Age old debate of game changer v game manager. Really depends on rest of the side tbh and thus how you want to play. Not sure I’d build a game plan around Marcus at intl level.
I don't think anyone can deny that Ford is better at managing the game than MSmith.
But Marcus isn't terrible at it, he's just better at other things.
It really depends on exactly how we're going to play and when. Smith's kicking can be very good, but he does lack a bit of length and he does sometimes screw things up just randomly.
The question is: does his upside outweigh those feck ups?
Puja wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 2:24 am
Apparently there will be a training squad named on Sunday from the players not involved in the play-offs. Various rumours of names include James Harper and Ibitoye. Will be interesting to see who's invited - even if it's not that informative about the actual tour squad, it'll give an idea of who's in the wider mix (plus Soapy Bubblebath's got form of being swayed by a player doing well at training, so any long-shots who get to train will have the chance to break in if they impress).
Puja
Harper will be involved in the play-offs though?
Tighthead is going to limited to Cole and Heyes. Not sure who else would be in the picture with Stuart and Davidson in the play-offs too.
Could be some interesting names in the frame for other positions.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 12:04 pm
Okay. You caught me exaggerating with the Baabaas thing, fair enough.
I'm not claiming they are just winging it the entire time or don't have any systems in place, but I don't think the very deliberate plan to break the game up and counter attack fits with people's idea of 'game management' or the 10 'taking control of a game'.
I don't know what point you're making with Quins underwhelming win/loss ratio. Is that Smith's fault? For what it's worth I think Care has been playing like a drain for large portions of it.
Just a point about how the style he's employing isn't bearing fruit and that using more of his skills and going to the game management but he doesn't enjoy might help him and the team. I do agree Danny Care still be first choice surely must be coming to an end, especially with Porter on the books, he's a good 9.
