Puja wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 2:24 am
Apparently there will be a training squad named on Sunday from the players not involved in the play-offs. Various rumours of names include James Harper and Ibitoye. Will be interesting to see who's invited - even if it's not that informative about the actual tour squad, it'll give an idea of who's in the wider mix (plus Soapy Bubblebath's got form of being swayed by a player doing well at training, so any long-shots who get to train will have the chance to break in if they impress).
Puja
Harper will be involved in the play-offs though?
Tighthead is going to limited to Cole and Heyes. Not sure who else would be in the picture with Stuart and Davidson in the play-offs too.
Could be some interesting names in the frame for other positions.
Good point, well made. I saw a sentence in an article about Harper being considered by England for the tour and conflated that with the training squad in my head.
Iosefa-Scott would presumably be in the mix for the training squad, given he was in the A-team XXIII, but I don't know if he'll ever make any real dent on the international scene. I'd be tempted, if I were Studious Boxbuilder, to bring in Sela and/or Fasogbon to the training squad - they also wouldn't tour this summer, but it feels like it would be more relevant to England's future to do that than to invite a journeyman to make up the numbers.
Wouldn't be bad with four teams worth of talent still to come in.
Wouldn't bother with Walker myself. He's been poor for Quins of late and his inaccurate lineouts were a major part of why they lost their recent games - I'd be happier with Oghre. Aside from that, your squad looks sound enough.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 12:04 pm
Okay. You caught me exaggerating with the Baabaas thing, fair enough.
I'm not claiming they are just winging it the entire time or don't have any systems in place, but I don't think the very deliberate plan to break the game up and counter attack fits with people's idea of 'game management' or the 10 'taking control of a game'.
I don't know what point you're making with Quins underwhelming win/loss ratio. Is that Smith's fault? For what it's worth I think Care has been playing like a drain for large portions of it.
Just a point about how the style he's employing isn't bearing fruit and that using more of his skills and going to the game management but he doesn't enjoy might help him and the team. I do agree Danny Care still be first choice surely must be coming to an end, especially with Porter on the books, he's a good 9.
Lol. Smith has no influence over our hooker missing his marks, our locks failing to get involved well enough, or our injuries decimating pretty much the entire team.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 12:04 pm
Okay. You caught me exaggerating with the Baabaas thing, fair enough.
I'm not claiming they are just winging it the entire time or don't have any systems in place, but I don't think the very deliberate plan to break the game up and counter attack fits with people's idea of 'game management' or the 10 'taking control of a game'.
I don't know what point you're making with Quins underwhelming win/loss ratio. Is that Smith's fault? For what it's worth I think Care has been playing like a drain for large portions of it.
Just a point about how the style he's employing isn't bearing fruit and that using more of his skills and going to the game management but he doesn't enjoy might help him and the team. I do agree Danny Care still be first choice surely must be coming to an end, especially with Porter on the books, he's a good 9.
Lol. Smith has no influence over our hooker missing his marks, our locks failing to get involved well enough, or our injuries decimating pretty much the entire team.
Wouldn't be bad with four teams worth of talent still to come in.
Wouldn't bother with Walker myself. He's been poor for Quins of late and his inaccurate lineouts were a major part of why they lost their recent games - I'd be happier with Oghre. Aside from that, your squad looks sound enough.
Puja
To be fair there's quite a few hookers we could take. Oghre, Riley or as a left fielder then Max Norey finished the season well for Chiefs.
Wouldn't be bad with four teams worth of talent still to come in.
I know this is a purely hypothetical squad, but the rumour is that Kelly is moving to Munster with the intention of becoming Irish again. Not sure who to bring in at 12 instead though? Given it’s just a training squad, I’d probably go with Williams from Bristol.
Other than that, I’d swap Riley in for Walker and Northmore in for Beard. Painter over Iosefa-Scott too.
Wouldn't be bad with four teams worth of talent still to come in.
I know this is a purely hypothetical squad, but the rumour is that Kelly is moving to Munster with the intention of becoming Irish again. Not sure who to bring in at 12 instead though? Given it’s just a training squad, I’d probably go with Williams from Bristol.
Other than that, I’d swap Riley in for Walker and Northmore in for Beard. Painter over Iosefa-Scott too.
McKellar flat denied it at the fans forum. Kelly is under contract for next season and the club want him to stay. Munster are getting cash for Frisch when he heads to France but they have financial issues so that's likely to be banked and Tom Farrell who's been announced as leaving Connacht the likely incoming centre. Kelly also refound some form towards the end of season and finished with some good displays. Borthwick was a fan and before injury wanted Kelly in his first 6N squad. Unfortunately Kelly's form post injury was gash before the aforementioned late season revival.
Painter's form fell away over the course of the season though to be fair Ioseffa-Scott has had injury issues so it's a bit of a meh selection. Fasogbon could maybe come in to get a taste of senior squad before going to the JWC I suppose.
I was a big fan of Riley at under 20s level and his first few games for Quins it looked like he was primed to burst on to the scene but he's been pretty quiet. The other young Quin Jibulu is one I'd like to see get more game time.
The England coaching staff seem to rate Beard which is why I had him in. His pace, positional versatility and age profile make him a more likely squad pick considering there's established international centres to come back in.
Wouldn't be bad with four teams worth of talent still to come in.
I know this is a purely hypothetical squad, but the rumour is that Kelly is moving to Munster with the intention of becoming Irish again. Not sure who to bring in at 12 instead though? Given it’s just a training squad, I’d probably go with Williams from Bristol.
Other than that, I’d swap Riley in for Walker and Northmore in for Beard. Painter over Iosefa-Scott too.
McKellar flat denied it at the fans forum. Kelly is under contract for next season and the club want him to stay. Munster are getting cash for Frisch when he heads to France but they have financial issues so that's likely to be banked and Tom Farrell who's been announced as leaving Connacht the likely incoming centre. Kelly also refound some form towards the end of season and finished with some good displays. Borthwick was a fan and before injury wanted Kelly in his first 6N squad. Unfortunately Kelly's form post injury was gash before the aforementioned late season revival.
Painter's form fell away over the course of the season though to be fair Ioseffa-Scott has had injury issues so it's a bit of a meh selection. Fasogbon could maybe come in to get a taste of senior squad before going to the JWC I suppose.
I was a big fan of Riley at under 20s level and his first few games for Quins it looked like he was primed to burst on to the scene but he's been pretty quiet. The other young Quin Jibulu is one I'd like to see get more game time.
The England coaching staff seem to rate Beard which is why I had him in. His pace, positional versatility and age profile make him a more likely squad pick considering there's established international centres to come back in.
Northmore is simply a better player, though. I think he deserves an England chance, he's good enough.
He hits those late angles through the line better than probably anybody in the Premiership, it’s a real USP, but there’s a reasonable argument Beard has the potential as a more rounded player.
With the intensity he puts in to every contact, tackle, ruck, as well as his pace and positional flexibility I can see him as a Borthwick sort of pick.
A bit of a stretch but you might compare Northmore to Dombrandt and Beard to Earl in that sense. I’d be very interested to see how it went if England gave Northmore a go though.
From a Quins POV, Beard is frustrating. He has potential but he also makes a lot of mistakes and it’s noticeable how much better we look with Northmore or Joseph at 13.
He’s only made the number of appearances he has because those two have spent a good chunk of time out injured. He’s winning a fitness battle not a selection battle.
Yes, a good watch but Biggar seemed to be assuming that it would be Smith and Smith at 10/22 with no question of Ford being in the mix still. All his Ford comments appeared to relate to the past.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 10:11 am
Yes, a good watch but Biggar seemed to be assuming that it would be Smith and Smith at 10/22 with no question of Ford being in the mix still. All his Ford comments appeared to relate to the past.
TBF, the title of the piece is "Who Should be England’s Next Fly Half " not "Who is England's Current Fly Half"
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 10:11 am
Yes, a good watch but Biggar seemed to be assuming that it would be Smith and Smith at 10/22 with no question of Ford being in the mix still. All his Ford comments appeared to relate to the past.
TBF, the title of the piece is "Who Should be England’s Next Fly Half " not "Who is England's Current Fly Half"
So, it might be the RWC after next? I just assumed that it meant FH for the immediate future (or next game).
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 5:28 pm
A] Ford is the man in possession, and is absolutely playing well enough (club and international) to keep the shirt.
B] The man needs a break - I'd be very tempted to send him to the beach for the summer. If he doesn't get a rest this summer, he never will. He's essentially played 10 years of rugby, straight, without a summer off (excepting injury rehab work), and the only proper pre-seasons he's had, have been RWC warm-up camps. He has a history of playing through niggles, both minor (as everyone else) and big enough to affect his form to an obvious degree.
We won't learn anything new by playing him against Japan or the ABs, even though he gives us a better chance of winning those, and he ought to be central in terms of forwards planning / onfield coaching. We could gain a huge amount by having him spend a couple of months NOT thinking about rugby.
To be controversial I'd say the same about a number of our more experienced players (particularly the front row). If there's ever a time to take an inexperienced side on a tour it's the year after a world cup where the top boys have been going for 50+ weeks without a real break. We have strength in depth and should be testing that to give the fringe players the opportunity - the only place it would leave us significantly weaker is prop, where we really only have 12 months or so to replace Maler/Cole anyway
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 5:28 pm
A] Ford is the man in possession, and is absolutely playing well enough (club and international) to keep the shirt.
B] The man needs a break - I'd be very tempted to send him to the beach for the summer. If he doesn't get a rest this summer, he never will. He's essentially played 10 years of rugby, straight, without a summer off (excepting injury rehab work), and the only proper pre-seasons he's had, have been RWC warm-up camps. He has a history of playing through niggles, both minor (as everyone else) and big enough to affect his form to an obvious degree.
We won't learn anything new by playing him against Japan or the ABs, even though he gives us a better chance of winning those, and he ought to be central in terms of forwards planning / onfield coaching. We could gain a huge amount by having him spend a couple of months NOT thinking about rugby.
To be controversial I'd say the same about a number of our more experienced players (particularly the front row). If there's ever a time to take an inexperienced side on a tour it's the year after a world cup where the top boys have been going for 50+ weeks without a real break. We have strength in depth and should be testing that to give the fringe players the opportunity - the only place it would leave us significantly weaker is prop, where we really only have 12 months or so to replace Maler/Cole anyway
I see the logic, but we don't want to be taking a weakened side to New Zealand. Firstly, because they are in transition and I reckon a performance like we turned in against France or Ireland will see us win one of the tests, which is not something to be sniffed at, considering we've only done it twice in history. The second reason is because they are New Zealand and, if we turn up with a development side, they could get absolutely pumped and that's hardly good for development, confidence, or the growing authority of the Borthwick regime.
Borthwick will select his best squad. He might put in one or two new faces for Japan, but realistically NZ away is a major challenge and we dont want to play them severely under strength.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 12:31 pm
Borthwick will select his best squad. He might put in one or two new faces for Japan, but realistically NZ away is a major challenge and we dont want to play them severely under strength.
Borthwick will be more than aware he's only just started winning a proportion of the fan base that very much doubted him over. He'll be keen to provide more optimism and and generate more momentum this summer.
Next summer when the Lions Tour is on he'll have the perfect opportunity to rotate the squad and try a number of new options.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 12:31 pm
Borthwick will select his best squad. He might put in one or two new faces for Japan, but realistically NZ away is a major challenge and we dont want to play them severely under strength.
Can't disagree. Are you assuming the same playing style? With the existing methods and players we are 3rd best (or worse). Can we improve as a team without changing style and can that happen without new faces? I find it hard to think of a better opportunity than this three match series to up our game. Might we see some brave selection - the most mobile tight five forwards, for example?
fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 12:31 pm
Borthwick will select his best squad. He might put in one or two new faces for Japan, but realistically NZ away is a major challenge and we dont want to play them severely under strength.
Can't disagree. Are you assuming the same playing style? With the existing methods and players we are 3rd best (or worse). Can we improve as a team without changing style and can that happen without new faces? I find it hard to think of a better opportunity than this three match series to up our game. Might we see some brave selection - the most mobile tight five forwards, for example?
Can't disagree. Are you assuming the same playing style? With the existing methods and players we are 3rd best (or worse). Can we improve as a team without changing style and can that happen without new faces? I find it hard to think of a better opportunity than this three match series to up our game. Might we see some brave selection - the most mobile tight five forwards, for example?
Who would these most mobile tight five be?
Good question. Itoje, obviously. His partner in the 2nd row is difficult. Not George at 2 - several alternatives. Baxter and ? at prop.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 12:31 pm
Borthwick will select his best squad. He might put in one or two new faces for Japan, but realistically NZ away is a major challenge and we dont want to play them severely under strength.
Can't disagree. Are you assuming the same playing style? With the existing methods and players we are 3rd best (or worse). Can we improve as a team without changing style and can that happen without new faces? I find it hard to think of a better opportunity than this three match series to up our game. Might we see some brave selection - the most mobile tight five forwards, for example?
You aren't happy with the style shown at the end of the 6N?
Can't disagree. Are you assuming the same playing style? With the existing methods and players we are 3rd best (or worse). Can we improve as a team without changing style and can that happen without new faces? I find it hard to think of a better opportunity than this three match series to up our game. Might we see some brave selection - the most mobile tight five forwards, for example?
Who would these most mobile tight five be?
Good question. Itoje, obviously. His partner in the 2nd row is difficult. Not George at 2 - several alternatives. Baxter and ? at prop.
Is it? George Martin was mobile enough to play in the backrow regularly up to just over a year ago and why wouldn't you want 19 stone or mobile second row alongside Itoje.
So, it might be the RWC after next? I just assumed that it meant FH for the immediate future (or next game).