Summer Touring Squad Announced

[Oakboy]

For me, it's the Saints line-up of F Smith, Dingwall and Freeman at 10/12/13 or it's M Smith, Lawrence, Slade. I much prefer the latter combination with Freeman on the wing (IFW, Furbank completing the back three and Mitchell at 9). Effectively, it's Marcus for Ford which gives a new dynamic.

[FKAS]

For me, it's the Saints line-up of F Smith, Dingwall and Freeman at 10/12/13 or it's M Smith, Lawrence, Slade. I much prefer the latter combination with Freeman on the wing (IFW, Furbank completing the back three and Mitchell at 9). Effectively, it's Marcus for Ford which gives a new dynamic.

No, give the backline some consistency and cohesion. Well outside of Mitchell who looks like a short break could do him some good.

9. Spencer
10. Smith (whichever one)
11. IFW
12. Lawrence
13. Slade
14. Freeman
15. Furbank

Experiment a bit with the bench options but having only recently settled into a working attack and now having to change the 10 give the new 10 the first choice backline.

I like Dingwall but I don't think he's got the physicality to tour against New Zealand.

[Timbo]

Strongly disagree on BCurry - his form for Sale has been excellent and he's thoroughly deserving of his place on tour.

I would tend to agree with you on TCurry and the worth of using him on a summer tour. My only thinking is that Scratchy Backrub is of the opinion that NZ are potentially vulnerable right now with changes of personnel, injuries, and being caught cold in their first game, and it's probably our best ever opportunity to get a series win there. If that's the case, it's maybe important enough to be worth taking TCurry.

Puja

All fair comment but B Curry has been around for as long as his brother without commanding a place in the 23. His form for his club does not alter that. Some players step up with gusto. He has only whimpered so far. That's not just my opinion, it's selection history over a period. Soapy Balls must reckon he can still come good, I suppose, but at best for a 6 or 7 shirt, he is behind every other back-rower in the squad, based on past selections. Taking him just seems odd.

I agree. BCurry has before looked good and led Sale well but shown little of the same for England.

He has barely played for England. 1 start and about 160 minutes in total.

I feel like the fact he’s taken a more conventional route and timeline to test rugby than his brother is used against him. Because his performances to the eye and all the stats point to a player that could be a very good international 7. There are no attributes that are immediately obviously lacking imo.

[Beasties]

No JVP is the most annoying thing. I feel left out as I haven’t yet boarded the Hill bus that you all seem to have bought a ticket for. So I’m not disappointed being the upside. I’d have liked TWillie to have gone but I’m not devastated. Underhill on Saturday’s form and it doesn’t matter who’s alongside frankly.

Midfield a bit underwhelming but I think that’s just where we are right now. I’m just looking forward to seeing Freeman, IFW and Furbank cut loose.

[p/d]

Langdon better be injured!!

No Pepper!!!! Aagghh

Bloody average looking midfield.

I’m already missing Daly

Pepper's a good prospect, but surely he's not worth an Aagghh over not touring? A distance behind the other options at 7, surely?

Not sure about your opinion of the midfield as well - it's the same one that did a very decent job vs Ireland and France, and, while it's not perfect, I hardly see Daly solving any of its inadequacies.

Puja

I like a touring team to have a genuine wildcard, hence Pepper.

The Daly comment really was very much tongue in cheek.

The back 3 options has a really good feel about it.

[morepork]

It's just average or old halfbacks all around isn't it? Aside from France.

[Adam_P]

Not sure I'd use the word 'average' to describe Marcus Smith.

[Stom]

It's just average or old halfbacks all around isn't it? Aside from France.

Mitchell is pretty good, imo

[Stom]

Not sure I'd use the word 'average' to describe Marcus Smith.

He’s a Kiwi, he means scrum half

[Adam_P]

Not sure I'd use the word 'average' to describe Marcus Smith.

He’s a Kiwi, he means scrum half

Maybe it's another string he can add to his bow. First 10, then 15 and now 9

[Spiffy]

No JVP is the most annoying thing. I feel left out as I haven’t yet boarded the Hill bus that you all seem to have bought a ticket for. So I’m not disappointed being the upside. I’d have liked TWillie to have gone but I’m not devastated. Underhill on Saturday’s form and it doesn’t matter who’s alongside frankly.

Midfield a bit underwhelming but I think that’s just where we are right now. I’m just looking forward to seeing Freeman, IFW and Furbank cut loose.

The back three might find it difficult to cut loose outside an underwhelming midfield.

[Danno]

No JVP is the most annoying thing. I feel left out as I haven’t yet boarded the Hill bus that you all seem to have bought a ticket for. So I’m not disappointed being the upside. I’d have liked TWillie to have gone but I’m not devastated. Underhill on Saturday’s form and it doesn’t matter who’s alongside frankly.

Midfield a bit underwhelming but I think that’s just where we are right now. I’m just looking forward to seeing Freeman, IFW and Furbank cut loose.

The back three might find it difficult to cut loose outside an underwhelming midfield.

Twas ever thus. (Thus being 20 years now).

I spose Barrit and Tuilagi whelmed a bit. And whoever was playing 12 alongside JJ in 2014-15, that pairing occasionally whelmed.

[Puja]

No JVP is the most annoying thing. I feel left out as I haven’t yet boarded the Hill bus that you all seem to have bought a ticket for. So I’m not disappointed being the upside. I’d have liked TWillie to have gone but I’m not devastated. Underhill on Saturday’s form and it doesn’t matter who’s alongside frankly.

Midfield a bit underwhelming but I think that’s just where we are right now. I’m just looking forward to seeing Freeman, IFW and Furbank cut loose.

The back three might find it difficult to cut loose outside an underwhelming midfield.

I wasn't a fan of a Lawrence/Slade pairing when they were selected, but the way they played against Ireland and France was anything but underwhelming. I'm surprised that we've apparently turned against it?

Puja

[Spiffy]

No JVP is the most annoying thing. I feel left out as I haven’t yet boarded the Hill bus that you all seem to have bought a ticket for. So I’m not disappointed being the upside. I’d have liked TWillie to have gone but I’m not devastated. Underhill on Saturday’s form and it doesn’t matter who’s alongside frankly.

Midfield a bit underwhelming but I think that’s just where we are right now. I’m just looking forward to seeing Freeman, IFW and Furbank cut loose.

The back three might find it difficult to cut loose outside an underwhelming midfield.

I wasn't a fan of a Lawrence/Slade pairing when they were selected, but the way they played against Ireland and France was anything but underwhelming. I'm surprised that we've apparently turned against it?

Puja

Yes. They are not bad . Simply using Beasties own term "underwhelming" to respond to him and make the point. I'd still like to see more of what Freeman could do at 13 for a bit of midfield gas/power, which would allow another flyer on the wing.A back division containing Furbank/IFW/Sleightholme/Freeman would look pretty pacy and with some strike power.

[FKAS]

The back three might find it difficult to cut loose outside an underwhelming midfield.

I wasn't a fan of a Lawrence/Slade pairing when they were selected, but the way they played against Ireland and France was anything but underwhelming. I'm surprised that we've apparently turned against it?

Puja

Yes. They are not bad . Simply using Beasties own term "underwhelming" to respond to him and make the point. I'd still like to see more of what Freeman could do at 13 for a bit of midfield gas/power, which would allow another flyer on the wing.A back division containing Furbank/IFW/Sleightholme/Freeman would look pretty pacy and with some strike power.

It would but it would be asking a lot of Freeman who's played a whole 11 games at outside centre and none before this season, to lead the blitz defence. He's a very good defender on the wing, positionally in particular but outside centre is a tough position to defend and whilst he was able to use his pace to recover at club level that won't be so much of an option at international level.

Plus Henry Slade has been in the form of his life this season.

[Oakboy]

We have yet to see Marcus play with Mitchell, Lawrence, Slade, Freeman, IFW and Furbank. I think he is capable of sparking that combination into an outstanding attacking force. He is a doughty defender so nothing will be lost there. I hope Soapy Balls picks that line-up for all three tests and concentrates on finding the right forward combinations. I think those backs can win matches against anybody if they get enough decent ball - as always.

For all the praise of Underhill in a club game, I remain concerned about the breakdown. Can Underhill, Curry and Earl dominate the NZ back row? Can we win scrums with the props available? To do so, we presumably start George at hooker, accepting his current irrelevance in the loose. Can Itoje and Martin win decent line-out ball without a jumper from the back-row? Can CSS step up to a level where he starts ahead of one of the 'popular three'? Might we see Ewels brought in alongside Itoje with Martin at 6?

I might be excited by the backs. I'm apprehensive about the pack.

[TheNomad]

I wasn't a fan of a Lawrence/Slade pairing when they were selected, but the way they played against Ireland and France was anything but underwhelming. I'm surprised that we've apparently turned against it?

Puja

Yes. They are not bad . Simply using Beasties own term "underwhelming" to respond to him and make the point. I'd still like to see more of what Freeman could do at 13 for a bit of midfield gas/power, which would allow another flyer on the wing.A back division containing Furbank/IFW/Sleightholme/Freeman would look pretty pacy and with some strike power.

It would but it would be asking a lot of Freeman who's played a whole 11 games at outside centre and none before this season, to lead the blitz defence. He's a very good defender on the wing, positionally in particular but outside centre is a tough position to defend and whilst he was able to use his pace to recover at club level that won't be so much of an option at international level.

Plus Henry Slade has been in the form of his life this season.

Agreed on most of that.

I think there are combinations of backs that could be as interesting (and hopefully effective) as we've seen for some time:

Half backs:

I think a combo of either the following would work rather well:
Spencer - M.Smith; or
Mitchell - F.Smith

Then I'd persist with Lawrence and Slade at centre - Slade's not getting any younger but you can't argue with his form this year, and they were pretty effective in the 6Ns

Wing is an easy one for me, being IFW and Freeman

Furback should start at FB, but the options are good too.

I think there's a good blend there

[Mikey Brown]

I can't see SB going for three 7s in the back row. I'd imagine CCS or Roots will be at 6 who are good line-out jumpers anyway. Almost everyone seems in agreement on this but I'm not quite sure what you're seeing differently. Ewels is probably useful in the squad as a lineout nerd, even if he doesn't play. I really hope we don't see Martin shifted to 6.

I'm not sure I get your point about Underhill. He has been playing well for England since the RWC, not just having one good club game out of nowhere.

Prop is a bit of a concern, true. Obano/Genge out, Stuart not starting for Bath, Sinkler off and long out of form, Heyes yet to really kick on. Marler, George, Cole is a hilariously un-dynamic front row, but should be solid in the scrum. Baxter is looking fantastic at the moment but wouldn't want to heap too much pressure on him yet.

[Puja]

I can't see SB going for three 7s in the back row. I'd imagine CCS or Roots will be at 6 who are good line-out jumpers anyway. Almost everyone seems in agreement on this but I'm not quite sure what you're seeing differently. Ewels is probably useful in the squad as a lineout nerd, even if he doesn't play. I really hope we don't see Martin shifted to 6.

I'm not sure I get your point about Underhill. He has been playing well for England since the RWC, not just having one good club game out of nowhere.

Prop is a bit of a concern, true. Obano/Genge out, Stuart not starting for Bath, Sinkler off and long out of form, Heyes yet to really kick on. Marler, George, Cole is a hilariously un-dynamic front row, but should be solid in the scrum. Baxter is looking fantastic at the moment but wouldn't want to heap too much pressure on him yet.

Agreed on the three 7s, although I would love to see it - all three can jump adequately and Short Ballcatching is more than able to work with a variety of backrow jumpers instead of one dominant one. However, CCS is surely going to play 6, given the selections at the end of the 6N.

I will say again that it does seem odd to be assuming Marler is first choice ahead of Baxter for England, considering he isn't for Harlequins.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I mean Marler is a current England player. Baxter is not. Maybe Borthwick will be bold and throw him in to start. I don't know.

I can't say I read much in to Baxter starting ahead of Marler for Quins recently. He is obviously the future and prop is a bit different as nearly every team adopts a 50/30 (ish) split unless their bench option is useless.

Having the youngster start and be able to swap them out if the old head if needed is a pretty valid tactic, but with Genge and Mako gone it seems fair to call Marler the incumbent until he's displaced. Trying to retain a bit of dynamism by not having Marler and Cole on the pitch at once is possibly a good move too, and given the options at tighthead Cole starting is probably more of a priority.

[Puja]

I mean Marler is a current England player. Baxter is not. Maybe Borthwick will be bold and throw him in to start. I don't know.

I can't say I read much in to Baxter starting ahead of Marler for Quins recently. He is obviously the future and prop is a bit different as nearly every team adopts a 50/30 (ish) split unless their bench option is useless.

Having the youngster start and be able to swap them out if the old head if needed is a pretty valid tactic, but with Genge and Mako gone it seems fair to call Marler the incumbent until he's displaced. Trying to retain a bit of dynamism by not having Marler and Cole on the pitch at once is possibly a good move too, and given the options at tighthead Cole starting is probably more of a priority.

He has started 9 out of the last 13 games of Quins's season though, including all three European knock-outs. That's not a situation where the young and old head are regularly rotated - it's one where Baxter has become unequivocally first choice.

I do see your argument on Marler's experience and proven international class. I'm glad that the Japan game exists - it will give us a chance to chuck Baxter in and get his first cap through in a less pressurised environment, rather than just chucking him in cold against NZ.

Puja

[TheNomad]

I wonder how this pack would get on?

Fin Baxter
Theo Dan
Will Stuart
Maro Itoje
George Martin
Chandler Cunningham-South
Ben Curry
Ben Earl

Clearly too 'green' to start away in NZ (en masse, anyway) but I'd kind of like to see it

[Mikey Brown]

I mean Marler is a current England player. Baxter is not. Maybe Borthwick will be bold and throw him in to start. I don't know.

I can't say I read much in to Baxter starting ahead of Marler for Quins recently. He is obviously the future and prop is a bit different as nearly every team adopts a 50/30 (ish) split unless their bench option is useless.

Having the youngster start and be able to swap them out if the old head if needed is a pretty valid tactic, but with Genge and Mako gone it seems fair to call Marler the incumbent until he's displaced. Trying to retain a bit of dynamism by not having Marler and Cole on the pitch at once is possibly a good move too, and given the options at tighthead Cole starting is probably more of a priority.

He has started 9 out of the last 13 games of Quins's season though, including all three European knock-outs. That's not a situation where the young and old head are regularly rotated - it's one where Baxter has become unequivocally first choice.

I do see your argument on Marler's experience and proven international class. I'm glad that the Japan game exists - it will give us a chance to chuck Baxter in and get his first cap through in a less pressurised environment, rather than just chucking him in cold against NZ.

Puja

Oh yeah I wasn't disputing the numbers, I more just meant I feel like it matters less at prop? I'm quite a big fan of Franco Smith's trick of "starting your bench" giving them 30, then allowing 16, 17, 18 to get 10 minutes in before a half-time rest, but that's a bit of a tangent.

We know what Marler offers and we know he can do it at the top level. Ideally he wouldn't be having to run about for 50+ minutes at international level anymore but need Baxter or Rodd to step up as a starter.

I wouldn't mind seeing Nomad's pack against Japan. Give Baxter and Rodd a chance to show they should take the 1 shirt.

[Puja]

I wonder how this pack would get on?

Fin Baxter
Theo Dan
Will Stuart
Maro Itoje
George Martin
Chandler Cunningham-South
Ben Curry
Ben Earl

Clearly too 'green' to start away in NZ (en masse, anyway) but I'd kind of like to see it

I'd be very interested in seeing that start against Japan, with the only exception being Coles for Itoje, as we want to keep his involvements down to the two NZ tests only. The only thing would be that I'd want a 6:2 bench in that situation, as I'd want both TCurry and Underhill to have gametime off the bench - Underhill is my likely starting 7 against NZ, so I'd want him to have some warm-up and TCurry's presence on tour is meaningless if he doesn't play against Japan, as I'm not happy with him being involved against NZ off the back of only half a game of rugby in a season.

Puja

[Banquo]

I wasn't a fan of a Lawrence/Slade pairing when they were selected, but the way they played against Ireland and France was anything but underwhelming. I'm surprised that we've apparently turned against it?

Puja

Yes. They are not bad . Simply using Beasties own term "underwhelming" to respond to him and make the point. I'd still like to see more of what Freeman could do at 13 for a bit of midfield gas/power, which would allow another flyer on the wing.A back division containing Furbank/IFW/Sleightholme/Freeman would look pretty pacy and with some strike power.

Plus Henry Slade has been in the form of his life this season.

Same club form as normal tbh. Excellent club player. I suppose you must like his physicality