NZ v England round 1

[Oakboy]

Come on Oakboy, it feels like George is becoming a bit of a hobby horse when he's doing nothing wrong and, as highlighted, is doing a hell of a lot right. Dan still has his bloopers to iron out and for good or ill we haven't taken Langdon, Blamire or Moore on tour.

OK, I accept that to an extent but I hope there is a plan to move on. Remember, George was not 1st choice when LCD was fit so we have gone backwards to an extent. Another factor - and it is a hobby horse - is that I don't want our captain to be replaced after 60 every game. A captain should be there for 80 - a good case for Itoje or Earl (preferably the former).

[Danno]

Come on Oakboy, it feels like George is becoming a bit of a hobby horse when he's doing nothing wrong and, as highlighted, is doing a hell of a lot right. Dan still has his bloopers to iron out and for good or ill we haven't taken Langdon, Blamire or Moore on tour.

OK, I accept that to an extent but I hope there is a plan to move on. Remember, George was not 1st choice when LCD was fit so we have gone backwards to an extent. Another factor - and it is a hobby horse - is that I don't want our captain to be replaced after 60 every game. A captain should be there for 80 - a good case for Itoje or Earl (preferably the former).

Yeah agreed with all of that, and it would be nice if we could have say, 1 vice captain instead of about 6 while we're at it

[Mikey Brown]

Come on Oakboy, it feels like George is becoming a bit of a hobby horse when he's doing nothing wrong and, as highlighted, is doing a hell of a lot right. Dan still has his bloopers to iron out and for good or ill we haven't taken Langdon, Blamire or Moore on tour.

OK, I accept that to an extent but I hope there is a plan to move on. Remember, George was not 1st choice when LCD was fit so we have gone backwards to an extent. Another factor - and it is a hobby horse - is that I don't want our captain to be replaced after 60 every game. A captain should be there for 80 - a good case for Itoje or Earl (preferably the former).

Yeah agreed with all of that, and it would be nice if we could have say, 1 vice captain instead of about 6 while we're at it

Yeah the fact George goes off and we repeatedly see that Itoje is in fact vice captain does make it seem a bit pointless.

[Danno]

*like*

[Beasties]

Also, a note to say how pleased I am to have Amashukeli reffing this game. I regard him as the best ref in the world currently and it's going to be great having quality in charge.

Puja

Absolutely.

[Scrumhead]

Come on Oakboy, it feels like George is becoming a bit of a hobby horse when he's doing nothing wrong and, as highlighted, is doing a hell of a lot right. Dan still has his bloopers to iron out and for good or ill we haven't taken Langdon, Blamire or Moore on tour.

OK, I accept that to an extent but I hope there is a plan to move on. Remember, George was not 1st choice when LCD was fit so we have gone backwards to an extent. Another factor - and it is a hobby horse - is that I don't want our captain to be replaced after 60 every game. A captain should be there for 80 - a good case for Itoje or Earl (preferably the former).

This was a very brief period in time. Partly because of LCD’s injury record but mostly because of George’s consistency in comparison to LCD blowing hot and cold in between injuries.

Re. the captain going off at 60mins, that’s not really unusual. Kolisi and O’Mahony are regularly subbed at a similar point and the attritional nature of playing in the front row means that any captain who is a hooker or prop is always likely to come off relatively early. Genge has been mooted as a captaincy option but he’d be in the same situation. Moreover, if George was doing the full 80 people would be complaining about him not coming off.

Dan is not ready to start. Langdon really needs to be looked at more closely but at this moment in time George is not the problem you are making him out to be.

[Oakboy]

Come on Oakboy, it feels like George is becoming a bit of a hobby horse when he's doing nothing wrong and, as highlighted, is doing a hell of a lot right. Dan still has his bloopers to iron out and for good or ill we haven't taken Langdon, Blamire or Moore on tour.

OK, I accept that to an extent but I hope there is a plan to move on. Remember, George was not 1st choice when LCD was fit so we have gone backwards to an extent. Another factor - and it is a hobby horse - is that I don't want our captain to be replaced after 60 every game. A captain should be there for 80 - a good case for Itoje or Earl (preferably the former).

This was a very brief period in time. Partly because of LCD’s injury record but mostly because of George’s consistency in comparison to LCD blowing hot and cold in between injuries.

Re. the captain going off at 60mins, that’s not really unusual. Kolisi and O’Mahony are regularly subbed at a similar point and the attritional nature of playing in the front row means that any captain who is a hooker or prop is always likely to come off relatively early. Genge has been mooted as a captaincy option but he’d be in the same situation. Moreover, if George was doing the full 80 people would be complaining about him not coming off.

Dan is not ready to start. Langdon really needs to be looked at more closely but at this moment in time George is not the problem you are making him out to be.

I accept that George might be our best hooker currently. The question remains, 'How long will he remain so and what are we doing to move on?' IMO, that is a valid point AT this stage in the 4 year RWC cycle. Or, are you suggesting he will stil be at 2 in 2027?

I would never choose a captain from the front row in the current game environment.

[fivepointer]

George was a good choice as captain and currently merits starting. I have reservations about his play. Not what he does - he is very consistent and reliable - but rather what he doesnt. He aint exactly a dynamo in the loose and i think modern hookers need to have a real presence outside the set piece.
Right now he is the starter and will probably remain so for the next year. Dan needs to cut out the errors and Langdon definitely needs to be brought into the squad.

[Puja]

OK, I accept that to an extent but I hope there is a plan to move on. Remember, George was not 1st choice when LCD was fit so we have gone backwards to an extent. Another factor - and it is a hobby horse - is that I don't want our captain to be replaced after 60 every game. A captain should be there for 80 - a good case for Itoje or Earl (preferably the former).

This was a very brief period in time. Partly because of LCD’s injury record but mostly because of George’s consistency in comparison to LCD blowing hot and cold in between injuries.

Re. the captain going off at 60mins, that’s not really unusual. Kolisi and O’Mahony are regularly subbed at a similar point and the attritional nature of playing in the front row means that any captain who is a hooker or prop is always likely to come off relatively early. Genge has been mooted as a captaincy option but he’d be in the same situation. Moreover, if George was doing the full 80 people would be complaining about him not coming off.

Dan is not ready to start. Langdon really needs to be looked at more closely but at this moment in time George is not the problem you are making him out to be.

I accept that George might be our best hooker currently. The question remains, 'How long will he remain so and what are we doing to move on?' IMO, that is a valid point AT this stage in the 4 year RWC cycle. Or, are you suggesting he will stil be at 2 in 2027?

I would never choose a captain from the front row in the current game environment.

We are giving Dan time off the bench in big games and telling him, "There is the standard; if you want his shirt, you need to improve so you're demanding it at both club and country." I'd fsr rather we make Dan work for it than gift it to him.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

This was a very brief period in time. Partly because of LCD’s injury record but mostly because of George’s consistency in comparison to LCD blowing hot and cold in between injuries.

Re. the captain going off at 60mins, that’s not really unusual. Kolisi and O’Mahony are regularly subbed at a similar point and the attritional nature of playing in the front row means that any captain who is a hooker or prop is always likely to come off relatively early. Genge has been mooted as a captaincy option but he’d be in the same situation. Moreover, if George was doing the full 80 people would be complaining about him not coming off.

Dan is not ready to start. Langdon really needs to be looked at more closely but at this moment in time George is not the problem you are making him out to be.

I accept that George might be our best hooker currently. The question remains, 'How long will he remain so and what are we doing to move on?' IMO, that is a valid point AT this stage in the 4 year RWC cycle. Or, are you suggesting he will stil be at 2 in 2027?

I would never choose a captain from the front row in the current game environment.

We are giving Dan time off the bench in big games and telling him, "There is the standard; if you want his shirt, you need to improve so you're demanding it at both club and country." I'd fsr rather we make Dan work for it than gift it to him.

Puja

I think Dan is being handled well but that may just be it’s him or A. N. Other getting pins and needles whilst being paid to watch a test match. Langdon has come from nowhere this season and is injured - I’m not sure what else Selectoral Bromides could’ve done other than curse his and Langdon’s luck (albeit I thought Langdon looked short of the necessary physicality in the final).

[p/d]

I’d be starting Dan. Not sure George looked anywhere near being our best 2 during the 6n.

Langdon was outstanding out in France and hasn’t taken his foot off the pedal since joining Saints.

Most disappointing is Frost not progressing

[Banquo]

Come on Oakboy, it feels like George is becoming a bit of a hobby horse when he's doing nothing wrong and, as highlighted, is doing a hell of a lot right. Dan still has his bloopers to iron out and for good or ill we haven't taken Langdon, Blamire or Moore on tour.

Yep highlights reel do not an international team make. We are often so adrift on basics its actually good to have someone who does them well- your good at bits and pieces players enable the big plays, and its what coaches (should) look for first.

[Scrumhead]

Langdon hasn’t ‘come from nowhere’. He’s been a very good hooker for about 5yrs at Sale, Worcester and now Saints. The main difference we’re seeing now is the benefit of him being the clear first choice in a good side.

IMO, he offers a very good balance of good set-piece work and dynamism. Essentially a hybrid of George and Dan.

Until Dan is able to sort out the nuts and bolts of his game, he is best suited to being an impact sub. Personally, I’d be looking at Langdon (or maybe Blake) replacing George with Dan staying in the 16 shirt.

[Oakboy]

Come on Oakboy, it feels like George is becoming a bit of a hobby horse when he's doing nothing wrong and, as highlighted, is doing a hell of a lot right. Dan still has his bloopers to iron out and for good or ill we haven't taken Langdon, Blamire or Moore on tour.

Yep highlights reel do not an international team make. We are often so adrift on basics its actually good to have someone who does them well- your good at bits and pieces players enable the big plays, and its what coaches (should) look for first.

It's all about a balance, though, isn't it? Fifteen 'Jamie George' types would not make much of a team either. It would be safe and tidy if it ever got the ball in the first place, I suppose.

[Puja]

Come on Oakboy, it feels like George is becoming a bit of a hobby horse when he's doing nothing wrong and, as highlighted, is doing a hell of a lot right. Dan still has his bloopers to iron out and for good or ill we haven't taken Langdon, Blamire or Moore on tour.

Yep highlights reel do not an international team make. We are often so adrift on basics its actually good to have someone who does them well- your good at bits and pieces players enable the big plays, and its what coaches (should) look for first.

It's all about a balance, though, isn't it? Fifteen 'Jamie George' types would not make much of a team either. It would be safe and tidy if it ever got the ball in the first place, I suppose.

Reminiscent of the John Wells coached England forwards, who could spend three dozen phases in the opposition 22, carefully managing the ball, never in danger of losing it, but also never in danger of scaring the opposition defence.

Pujz

[Banquo]

Come on Oakboy, it feels like George is becoming a bit of a hobby horse when he's doing nothing wrong and, as highlighted, is doing a hell of a lot right. Dan still has his bloopers to iron out and for good or ill we haven't taken Langdon, Blamire or Moore on tour.

Yep highlights reel do not an international team make. We are often so adrift on basics its actually good to have someone who does them well- your good at bits and pieces players enable the big plays, and its what coaches (should) look for first.

It's all about a balance, though, isn't it? Fifteen 'Jamie George' types would not make much of a team either. It would be safe and tidy if it ever got the ball in the first place, I suppose.

....hence, `enable the big plays`

[Mellsblue]

Langdon hasn’t ‘come from nowhere’. He’s been a very good hooker for about 5yrs at Sale, Worcester and now Saints. The main difference we’re seeing now is the benefit of him being the clear first choice in a good side.

IMO, he offers a very good balance of good set-piece work and dynamism. Essentially a hybrid of George and Dan.

Until Dan is able to sort out the nuts and bolts of his game, he is best suited to being an impact sub. Personally, I’d be looking at Langdon (or maybe Blake) replacing George with Dan staying in the 16 shirt.

I didn’t think this was his first pro season of rugby! Rather, that he hasn’t been in contention for Borthwick’s England, which is the context of the debate, until this season.

[FKAS]

Langdon hasn’t ‘come from nowhere’. He’s been a very good hooker for about 5yrs at Sale, Worcester and now Saints. The main difference we’re seeing now is the benefit of him being the clear first choice in a good side.

IMO, he offers a very good balance of good set-piece work and dynamism. Essentially a hybrid of George and Dan.

Until Dan is able to sort out the nuts and bolts of his game, he is best suited to being an impact sub. Personally, I’d be looking at Langdon (or maybe Blake) replacing George with Dan staying in the 16 shirt.

I didn’t think this was his first pro season of rugby! Rather, that he hasn’t been in contention for Borthwick’s England, which is the context of the debate, until this season.

To be fair Borthwick was unlikely to pick him whilst he was in France with Montpellier so this season was the first real opportunity. Langdon was particularly unlucky with Wuss going bankrupt. He got a couple of caps during the last Lions Tour for England then moved from Sale for more regular game time only for Wuss to go under, ends up at Montpellier. At Saints he's been a revelation, definitely the best form of his career so far.

I rate Blake very highly. Very raw still but lads that size just don't tend to be that mobile and his lineout work is solid. England do have options at hooker.

[Puja]

1. Ethan de Groot

2. Codie Taylor

3. Tyrel Lomax

4. Scott Barrett (captain)

5. Patrick Tuipulotu

6. Samipeni Finau

7. Dalton Papali'i

8. Ardie Savea

9. TJ Perenara

10. Damian McKenzie

11. Mark Tele'a

12. Jordie Barrett

13. Rieko Ioane

14. Sevu Reece

15. Stephen Perofeta

Reserves:
16. Asafo Aumua

17. Ofa Tu'ungafasi

18. Fletcher Newell

19. Tupou Vaa'i

20. Luke Jacobsen

21. Finlay Christie

22. Anton Lienert-Brown

23. Beauden Barrett

[Puja]

Pretty safe to say that's not the side most pundits were expecting.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Which selections outside of Perofeta ahead of Beauden Barret? I feel like that one had been coming for a while anyway based on Blues performances.

[FKAS]

I'd have gone Caleb Clarke over Sevu Reece as well but Robertson does know him from his Crusader days.

I saw a few pundits touting Proctor at 13 and keeping the 'Canes midfield together.

[Mikey Brown]

Sounds like he’s been injured based on NZ Reddit. They also seem incredibly confident and are awaiting Baxter getting demolished when he comes on.

I kind of thought they’d moved on from Reece to be honest. Not sure Robertson is showing a lot of Crusaders bias though, there’s only a handful of them there.

[Puja]

Which selections outside of Perofeta ahead of Beauden Barret? I feel like that one had been coming for a while anyway based on Blues performances.

Blackadder at 6 was widely expected, with Jacobson not making the sqaud. Finau is the form choice, unfortunately.

Puja

[Cameo]

Which selections outside of Perofeta ahead of Beauden Barret? I feel like that one had been coming for a while anyway based on Blues performances.

Blackadder at 6 was widely expected, with Jacobson not making the sqaud. Finau is the form choice, unfortunately.

Puja

Blackadder is a weird one. Half the country and most of the pundits think he is indispensible. The other half see a hard worker but don't understand what all the fuss is about. I'm on the fence but think Finau is the more exciting selection.

Reece has been having an unbelievable year in a struggling team. They have definitely picked two wingers who like making things happening themselves and looking for work.

Think most people expected Barrett until Jordan is back, but Perofeta is the more exciting choice.

Patrick Tiupoloto is interesting. Had to start on form, the question is whether he is an experienced stopgap or whether he could be about to come into his own at international level. Absolute talisman for the Blues.