NZ v England round 1

[Banquo]

Left Hill at home. Big mistake

Ted, Jonny or Jimmy?

The chinster

Hard nosed hard chinned, great negotiator

[Scrumhead]

Left Hill at home. Big mistake

Bit of an overstatement for a guy with about an hour’s worth of test rugby experience. However, I would have taken Hill.

CCS looks like he will become a fixture at 6 but Hill would be a good deputy with a similar-ish style.

[Mellsblue]

Left Hill at home. Big mistake

But you’re happy with the right hill? How big is your garden?

[FKAS]

I feel for Coles. It hasn’t come together for him on any of his England appearances so far, but I just don’t know if he’s a 6. Is give him another shot (as a lock) ahead of Isiekwe.

Now I know Banquo is insistent he's not a 6, he probably isn't a convincing one yet but I think it could be his best route at international level. Maybe even Saints thinking it's his future at club level. One lock (Moon) and two backrows (Lawes, Ludlam) out but two locks in (Hunter-Hill and Smith) but only one backrow (Kemeny) in. Could see more of Coles at 6, could not. We'll see.

Problem for Coles is that Martin and Itoje are substantially better players and able to play for 80mins. Come the Autumn Ollie Chessum returns who's comfortably better at lock and a handy option at 6. I'm not sure Coles will get many chances to get game time at lock outside of next summer's Lions Tour.

On paper the backrow at the end also sort of made sense but didn't quite work. Big and mobile hybrid at 6, natural openside at 7 and the starting 8.

Coles can also go 80 if that helps, his engine and mobility are notable strengths as a lock. I agree though, that he's fourth choice lock at best, ignoring left/right considerations.

It didn`t work because as before, Coles struggles at 6 at this level (and not much time there this season), Curry clearly ring rusty, and Earls looking a bit shagged out and inaccurate. Breadown (and scrum) under pressure all game.

Don't think Coles being able to go 80 really helps unless there's another injury this tour or multiple injuries before the 6N as he's unlikely to start at lock for it to come into play. Not unless he can seriously increase his physicality.

[Banquo]

only the third time weve played enzid in 5 years. Odd.

[Puja]

Left Hill at home. Big mistake

Ted, Jonny or Jimmy?

The chinster

Weird Hill to die on, but okay.

Puja

[Banquo]

Now I know Banquo is insistent he's not a 6, he probably isn't a convincing one yet but I think it could be his best route at international level. Maybe even Saints thinking it's his future at club level. One lock (Moon) and two backrows (Lawes, Ludlam) out but two locks in (Hunter-Hill and Smith) but only one backrow (Kemeny) in. Could see more of Coles at 6, could not. We'll see.

Problem for Coles is that Martin and Itoje are substantially better players and able to play for 80mins. Come the Autumn Ollie Chessum returns who's comfortably better at lock and a handy option at 6. I'm not sure Coles will get many chances to get game time at lock outside of next summer's Lions Tour.

On paper the backrow at the end also sort of made sense but didn't quite work. Big and mobile hybrid at 6, natural openside at 7 and the starting 8.

Coles can also go 80 if that helps, his engine and mobility are notable strengths as a lock. I agree though, that he's fourth choice lock at best, ignoring left/right considerations.

It didn`t work because as before, Coles struggles at 6 at this level (and not much time there this season), Curry clearly ring rusty, and Earls looking a bit shagged out and inaccurate. Breadown (and scrum) under pressure all game.

Don't think Coles being able to go 80 really helps unless there's another injury this tour or multiple injuries before the 6N as he's unlikely to start at lock for it to come into play. Not unless he can seriously increase his physicality.

You were the one making the point on 80 min players not me, and you still need a lock on the bench in case of injury (mind at intl level, keeping both locks on for 80 is likely to see one or both drop in performance). I've said my piece agreeing with you on Coles that's he's 4th choice lock at best, but that doesn't mean he's a 6 either, where physicality generally has a role. He has beefed up, but its not just about that, obvs

[FKAS]

Coles can also go 80 if that helps, his engine and mobility are notable strengths as a lock. I agree though, that he's fourth choice lock at best, ignoring left/right considerations.

It didn`t work because as before, Coles struggles at 6 at this level (and not much time there this season), Curry clearly ring rusty, and Earls looking a bit shagged out and inaccurate. Breadown (and scrum) under pressure all game.

Don't think Coles being able to go 80 really helps unless there's another injury this tour or multiple injuries before the 6N as he's unlikely to start at lock for it to come into play. Not unless he can seriously increase his physicality.

You were the one making the point on 80 min players not me, and you still need a lock on the bench in case of injury (mind at intl level, keeping both locks on for 80 is likely to see one or both drop in performance). I've said my piece agreeing with you on Coles that's he's 4th choice lock at best, but that doesn't mean he's a 6 either, where physicality generally has a role. He has beefed up, but its not just about that, obvs

Yeah the point was the starting locks can go 80 mins so chances will be limited for others including the sub named in the 23. Hence a hybrid option is likely to be preferred and so being able to play both positions well is going to be a benefit.

[Timbo]

Always multifaceted ofcourse, so undoubtedly a tad harsh, but Spencer really gummed things up in that last 20. Feel like the team were hobbled at the knees through his underperformance. Hard to judge some of the impact of the bench when nearly all our possession in the last quarter was spent setting up box kicks. 4 phases at one point moving from the centre of the field to the right and Spencer still took the kick in a suboptimal position.

Overall lots to be encouraged by. Definitely the most athletic England 23 we’ve had in a long, long time. CCS, Martin & IFW have supercharged the team in that respect. Defence improved as the game went on. Furbank, Mitchell & Itoje probably our 3 best performers. Underhill his usual savage defensive self too.

[Banquo]

Don't think Coles being able to go 80 really helps unless there's another injury this tour or multiple injuries before the 6N as he's unlikely to start at lock for it to come into play. Not unless he can seriously increase his physicality.

You were the one making the point on 80 min players not me, and you still need a lock on the bench in case of injury (mind at intl level, keeping both locks on for 80 is likely to see one or both drop in performance). I've said my piece agreeing with you on Coles that's he's 4th choice lock at best, but that doesn't mean he's a 6 either, where physicality generally has a role. He has beefed up, but its not just about that, obvs

Yeah the point was the starting locks can go 80 mins so chances will be limited for others including the sub named in the 23. Hence a hybrid option is likely to be preferred and so being able to play both positions well is going to be a benefit.

only imo if test quality in both rows as you say. Coles isnt too far off at lock, but 6....

[Banquo]

Always multifaceted ofcourse, so undoubtedly a tad harsh, but Spencer really gummed things up in that last 20. Feel like the team were hobbled at the knees through his underperformance. Hard to judge some of the impact of the bench when nearly all our possession in the last quarter was spent setting up box kicks. 4 phases at one point moving from the centre of the field to the right and Spencer still took the kick in a suboptimal position.

Overall lots to be encouraged by. Definitely the most athletic England 23 we’ve had in a long, long time. CCS, Martin & IFW have supercharged the team in that respect. Defence improved as the game went on. Furbank, Mitchell & Itoje probably our 3 best performers. Underhill his usual savage defensive self too.

yep.... but I'm still bothered by our first up and wide defence, scramble excellent tho. Despite mobilty, breakdown decision making needs work

Ball in hand we looked very good til we lost CCS carrying. Nice movement off the ball, enabled by quicker ball. Encouraging, but you have to take chances.

[Banquo]

any stats anywhere? espn hasnt any

[Banquo]

in the boks match, Pollard firing out some great flat passes

[p/d]

Left Hill at home. Big mistake

Bit of an overstatement for a guy with about an hour’s worth of test rugby experience. However, I would have taken Hill.

CCS looks like he will become a fixture at 6 but Hill would be a good deputy with a similar-ish style.

Maybe. But Hill has that ‘something’ so lack of test rugby wouldn’t worry me. Coles I just don’t get.

Agree ref CCS. But having being saying that since he pulled on the jersey.

[Banquo]

Left Hill at home. Big mistake

Bit of an overstatement for a guy with about an hour’s worth of test rugby experience. However, I would have taken Hill.

CCS looks like he will become a fixture at 6 but Hill would be a good deputy with a similar-ish style.

. Coles I just don’t get.

good club lock, not an intl 6 as it stands

[p/d]

Leicester have ruined Pollard

[FKAS]

Leicester have ruined Pollard

His spell under Wigglesworth for the short period post Borthwick (he barely played under Borthwick due to injury) he played a lot of attacking rugby. Last season was a shit show and the poor sod probably hated it. With an actual attack coach and a more experienced head coach we should see more of him in ball in hand. The Boks haven't always encouraged him to attack either.

[p/d]

Leicester have ruined Pollard

His spell under Wigglesworth for the short period post Borthwick (he barely played under Borthwick due to injury) he played a lot of attacking rugby. Last season was a shit show and the poor sod probably hated it. With an actual attack coach and a more experienced head coach we should see more of him in ball in hand. The Boks haven't always encouraged him to attack either.

I was jesting….but you knew that right?

Kicking aside he was actually quite tidy

[p/d]

Bit of an overstatement for a guy with about an hour’s worth of test rugby experience. However, I would have taken Hill.

CCS looks like he will become a fixture at 6 but Hill would be a good deputy with a similar-ish style.

. Coles I just don’t get.

good club lock, not an intl 6 as it stands

Just a leggy blonde

[FKAS]

Leicester have ruined Pollard

His spell under Wigglesworth for the short period post Borthwick (he barely played under Borthwick due to injury) he played a lot of attacking rugby. Last season was a shit show and the poor sod probably hated it. With an actual attack coach and a more experienced head coach we should see more of him in ball in hand. The Boks haven't always encouraged him to attack either.

I was jesting….but you knew that right?

Kicking aside he was actually quite tidy

Didn't see the game but I wasn't disagreeing.

[Beasties]

On the subs. I thought they were made too early.

CCS seemed to be going well and the front rowers hardly looked spent. Mitchell was going well and could have stayed on a bit longer. I would have kept M Smith on and the late inclusion of Sleightholme did nothing but give him a cap.

Cole made the scrum worse. Dan buzzed around to little effect. Spencer just gummed up our attack. F Smith was OK and Curry didnt look at all sharp, which was to be expected.

I dont think we'll see many changes next week. In the main we put in a very commendable effort but in games like these small margins make a difference and we largely lost the key moments in the last 30 minutes.

You don’t expect Cole to weaken the scrum, it’s usually Stuart who isn’t quite solid. Defo the other way round today though. Scrum battle evens in the first half once you take into account that DeGroot should’ve been pinged at least twice before he eventually was for standing up. Baxter was present in the first half. Two prop changes for NZ and Cole on and our scrum got mullered twice and under pressure otherwise. Hadn’t noted Newell and Tu’ungafasi as being awesome scrummagers before. Hmmm.

[Beasties]

Just to mention, Itoje was excellent today, more of that please. Martin seemed quiet by comparison. I’m sure he’ll be a force in a week, looking forward to seeing it.

[FKAS]

On the subs. I thought they were made too early.

CCS seemed to be going well and the front rowers hardly looked spent. Mitchell was going well and could have stayed on a bit longer. I would have kept M Smith on and the late inclusion of Sleightholme did nothing but give him a cap.

Cole made the scrum worse. Dan buzzed around to little effect. Spencer just gummed up our attack. F Smith was OK and Curry didnt look at all sharp, which was to be expected.

I dont think we'll see many changes next week. In the main we put in a very commendable effort but in games like these small margins make a difference and we largely lost the key moments in the last 30 minutes.

You don’t expect Cole to weaken the scrum, it’s usually Stuart who isn’t quite solid. Defo the other way round today though. Scrum battle evens in the first half once you take into account that DeGroot should’ve been pinged at least twice before he eventually was for standing up. Baxter was present in the first half. Two prop changes for NZ and Cole on and our scrum got mullered twice and under pressure otherwise. Hadn’t noted Newell and Tu’ungafasi as being awesome scrummagers before. Hmmm.

Baxter was obliterated for one of those scrums. Young lad on debut suddenly had to play a lot of the game including against a fresh and more experienced (and bigger) tighthead. Not a massive surprise he got caught out a couple of times. Generally we did quite well, the ABs weren't big on supporting their weight and were no doubt delighted when sir insisted we raise the height of the scrum to find more stability as scrummaging low is Baxter's advantage over those AB monsters.

Cole isn't the monster at scrum time he used to be either. Generally keeps things solid, England do need to replace him probably by the 6N.

[FKAS]

Just to mention, Itoje was excellent today, more of that please. Martin seemed quiet by comparison. I’m sure he’ll be a force in a week, looking forward to seeing it.

Martin carried a lot. Often when England had slow ball and needed someone to just get up to or a metre over the gainline in traffic so we could recycle. The Kiwi commentators on the stream I watched appreciated him.

[Oakboy]

Just to mention, Itoje was excellent today, more of that please. Martin seemed quiet by comparison. I’m sure he’ll be a force in a week, looking forward to seeing it.

Martin carried a lot. Often when England had slow ball and needed someone to just get up to or a metre over the gainline in traffic so we could recycle. The Kiwi commentators on the stream I watched appreciated him.

That's what Hartley used to do game-after-game, together with first-up tackling!