NZ v England round 1

[Banquo]

Just to mention, Itoje was excellent today, more of that please. Martin seemed quiet by comparison. I’m sure he’ll be a force in a week, looking forward to seeing it.

Standard Itoje tbh.

[Beasties]

Just to mention, Itoje was excellent today, more of that please. Martin seemed quiet by comparison. I’m sure he’ll be a force in a week, looking forward to seeing it.

Martin carried a lot. Often when England had slow ball and needed someone to just get up to or a metre over the gainline in traffic so we could recycle. The Kiwi commentators on the stream I watched appreciated him.

I didn’t say he was poor, more that he normally influences things a bit more.

[Beasties]

Just to mention, Itoje was excellent today, more of that please. Martin seemed quiet by comparison. I’m sure he’ll be a force in a week, looking forward to seeing it.

Standard Itoje tbh.

Seems a bit pointless ever mentioning his performance then. Apols.

[FKAS]

Just to mention, Itoje was excellent today, more of that please. Martin seemed quiet by comparison. I’m sure he’ll be a force in a week, looking forward to seeing it.

Martin carried a lot. Often when England had slow ball and needed someone to just get up to or a metre over the gainline in traffic so we could recycle. The Kiwi commentators on the stream I watched appreciated him.

That's what Hartley used to do game-after-game, together with first-up tackling!

Hartley was a very good hooker, his only issue was his discipline. He wasn't the brightest spark.

You need someone in the pack that's big, physical and nasty that will just do the unglamorous stuff. Martin offers that and quite a bit of mobility. Itoje's form was largely maligned as not being quite as effective a year ago with him hitting lots of rucks. Now he's having tremendous games with stand out moments. The combination at lock is probably helping that.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I thought Martin was pretty good. Some horribly physical work in the rucks and did his bit in the set piece. I’d agree he allows Itoje a bit more freedom to do his thing.

[Scrumhead]

Meaningless now but did anybody catch JB’s clearout on Smith immediately after the Perenara neck roll? Looked very suspicious and they managed to not show it while replaying TJP’s clearout.

Yes. I watched the game with my father in law and we both thought that was missed.

I didn’t see the point of contact but he flew in head first at speed. Looked bad in real time.

I wouldn’t be totally surprised if he’s cited for that.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah, may have been perfectly legit and just a power imbalance, but Smith went flying and didn’t look too comfortable afterwards.

[Beasties]

On the subs. I thought they were made too early.

CCS seemed to be going well and the front rowers hardly looked spent. Mitchell was going well and could have stayed on a bit longer. I would have kept M Smith on and the late inclusion of Sleightholme did nothing but give him a cap.

Cole made the scrum worse. Dan buzzed around to little effect. Spencer just gummed up our attack. F Smith was OK and Curry didnt look at all sharp, which was to be expected.

I dont think we'll see many changes next week. In the main we put in a very commendable effort but in games like these small margins make a difference and we largely lost the key moments in the last 30 minutes.

You don’t expect Cole to weaken the scrum, it’s usually Stuart who isn’t quite solid. Defo the other way round today though. Scrum battle evens in the first half once you take into account that DeGroot should’ve been pinged at least twice before he eventually was for standing up. Baxter was present in the first half. Two prop changes for NZ and Cole on and our scrum got mullered twice and under pressure otherwise. Hadn’t noted Newell and Tu’ungafasi as being awesome scrummagers before. Hmmm.

Baxter was obliterated for one of those scrums. Young lad on debut suddenly had to play a lot of the game including against a fresh and more experienced (and bigger) tighthead. Not a massive surprise he got caught out a couple of times. Generally we did quite well, the ABs weren't big on supporting their weight and were no doubt delighted when sir insisted we raise the height of the scrum to find more stability as scrummaging low is Baxter's advantage over those AB monsters.

Cole isn't the monster at scrum time he used to be either. Generally keeps things solid, England do need to replace him probably by the 6N.

Which scrum did Baxter get obliterated at? 3 scrums in the 2nd half. First one De Groot stood up yet again but got pinged. 2nd one Cole went backwards at a rate of knots, Baxter merely stood still while everyone else moved to the side and forwards. 3rd one NZ ran round the corner. He was to blame for none of those.

[SixAndAHalf]

Encouraging performance however also a great opportunity missed. Feel like NZ will get stronger when adding Roigard, Mo’unga and Jordan to their line up.

The jury is still out on MSmith for me (not solelt kicking related). I think Id like to see FSmith start on the weekend and definitely see Ford as our 10 to the world cup. I also think MSmith would work better coming on alongside a more conservative 9 like Spencer / JvP.

Props are a huge area of concern for me. Baxter I thought did well considering he played 60 odd mins on debut so LHP may be ok but Cole / Stuart are not top international standard (but are the best we have). I can’t see any THP coming through in the next few years (the current u20 are too young) which is a worry.

[SixAndAHalf]

One THP option is the man in the studio- Sinckler. I hope France is the (re)making of him.

[Danno]

Just to mention, Itoje was excellent today, more of that please. Martin seemed quiet by comparison. I’m sure he’ll be a force in a week, looking forward to seeing it.

Martin carried a lot. Often when England had slow ball and needed someone to just get up to or a metre over the gainline in traffic so we could recycle. The Kiwi commentators on the stream I watched appreciated him.

Stream deets for next week please

[FKAS]

You don’t expect Cole to weaken the scrum, it’s usually Stuart who isn’t quite solid. Defo the other way round today though. Scrum battle evens in the first half once you take into account that DeGroot should’ve been pinged at least twice before he eventually was for standing up. Baxter was present in the first half. Two prop changes for NZ and Cole on and our scrum got mullered twice and under pressure otherwise. Hadn’t noted Newell and Tu’ungafasi as being awesome scrummagers before. Hmmm.

Baxter was obliterated for one of those scrums. Young lad on debut suddenly had to play a lot of the game including against a fresh and more experienced (and bigger) tighthead. Not a massive surprise he got caught out a couple of times. Generally we did quite well, the ABs weren't big on supporting their weight and were no doubt delighted when sir insisted we raise the height of the scrum to find more stability as scrummaging low is Baxter's advantage over those AB monsters.

Cole isn't the monster at scrum time he used to be either. Generally keeps things solid, England do need to replace him probably by the 6N.

Which scrum did Baxter get obliterated at? 3 scrums in the 2nd half. First one De Groot stood up yet again but got pinged. 2nd one Cole went backwards at a rate of knots, Baxter merely stood still while everyone else moved to the side and forwards. 3rd one NZ ran round the corner. He was to blame for none of those.

The one you're blaming Cole for. The AB tighthead goes straight through the gap between Baxter and George. Baxter is then a complete passenger as Cole and George get left to face the AB scrum with an expected result. I doubt the AB tighthead's angle was particularly good but he kept it straight enough to avoid sanction.

[FKAS]

Just to mention, Itoje was excellent today, more of that please. Martin seemed quiet by comparison. I’m sure he’ll be a force in a week, looking forward to seeing it.

Martin carried a lot. Often when England had slow ball and needed someone to just get up to or a metre over the gainline in traffic so we could recycle. The Kiwi commentators on the stream I watched appreciated him.

Stream deets for next week please

Mentioned earlier on here. Rugby Stream.me

There was some annoying pop ups but once you've got through those the stream worked.

[FKAS]

One THP option is the man in the studio- Sinckler. I hope France is the (re)making of him.

Hopefully but doesn't benefit England really. He might be back for the next world cup but not much before. We'll need tighthead options before then. Fingers crossed that Harper and Heyes kick on and get more starts.

[Banquo]

Just to mention, Itoje was excellent today, more of that please. Martin seemed quiet by comparison. I’m sure he’ll be a force in a week, looking forward to seeing it.

Standard Itoje tbh.

Seems a bit pointless ever mentioning his performance then. Apols.

I was just making the point that he nearly always puts in an excellent shift, 80 mins week in week out. Not having a pop- it was your more of that please I was responding to- as said, he does what is required/tasked.

[Banquo]

Martin carried a lot. Often when England had slow ball and needed someone to just get up to or a metre over the gainline in traffic so we could recycle. The Kiwi commentators on the stream I watched appreciated him.

That's what Hartley used to do game-after-game, together with first-up tackling!

Hartley was a very good hooker, his only issue was his discipline. He wasn't the brightest spark.

You need someone in the pack that's big, physical and nasty that will just do the unglamorous stuff. Martin offers that and quite a bit of mobility. Itoje's form was largely maligned as not being quite as effective a year ago with him hitting lots of rucks. Now he's having tremendous games with stand out moments. The combination at lock is probably helping that.

I guess if hitting rucks is not being effective . But quite.

[Banquo]

Encouraging performance however also a great opportunity missed. Feel like NZ will get stronger when adding Roigard, Mo’unga and Jordan to their line up.

The jury is still out on MSmith for me (not solelt kicking related). I think Id like to see FSmith start on the weekend and definitely see Ford as our 10 to the world cup. I also think MSmith would work better coming on alongside a more conservative 9 like Spencer / JvP.

Props are a huge area of concern for me. Baxter I thought did well considering he played 60 odd mins on debut so LHP may be ok but Cole / Stuart are not top international standard (but are the best we have). I can’t see any THP coming through in the next few years (the current u20 are too young) which is a worry.

Why M Smith outside a conservative 9 ( not that JVP is naturally conservative imo). Quick ball is what he thrives on, also play broken with a threat inside.

[Which Tyler]

Stream deets for next week please

Mentioned earlier on here. Rugby Stream.me

There was some annoying pop ups but once you've got through those the stream worked.

Also to add - don't use Firefox for this.
Rugbystream and viprow are two of my go-to.s, but the last year or so Firefox has been refusing to support them for some reason.
Worked fine once I though to try on chrome, I've been told Brave is the best browser for streaming (haven't tried yet).

[Oakboy]

Encouraging performance however also a great opportunity missed. Feel like NZ will get stronger when adding Roigard, Mo’unga and Jordan to their line up.

The jury is still out on MSmith for me (not solelt kicking related). I think Id like to see FSmith start on the weekend and definitely see Ford as our 10 to the world cup. I also think MSmith would work better coming on alongside a more conservative 9 like Spencer / JvP.

Props are a huge area of concern for me. Baxter I thought did well considering he played 60 odd mins on debut so LHP may be ok but Cole / Stuart are not top international standard (but are the best we have). I can’t see any THP coming through in the next few years (the current u20 are too young) which is a worry.

Why M Smith outside a conservative 9 ( not that JVP is naturally conservative imo). Quick ball is what he thrives on, also play broken with a threat inside.

I have read reports mentioning NZ hurting teams because they can play so quickly. Hoping to slow them down or kicking more (especially late in the game) seems the wrong response if we are to beat them. We need to match them for speed of thought and action. Marcus is essential in that aim and the quicker he gets the ball the better. I'm not a Randall fan but he is a better bench option than Spencer with speed of delivery in mind. Marcus is far and away our best carrying FH. His eye for a break keeps the opposition defence tight and creates space outside. It is time to back him not doubt him.

[Banquo]

Encouraging performance however also a great opportunity missed. Feel like NZ will get stronger when adding Roigard, Mo’unga and Jordan to their line up.

The jury is still out on MSmith for me (not solelt kicking related). I think Id like to see FSmith start on the weekend and definitely see Ford as our 10 to the world cup. I also think MSmith would work better coming on alongside a more conservative 9 like Spencer / JvP.

Props are a huge area of concern for me. Baxter I thought did well considering he played 60 odd mins on debut so LHP may be ok but Cole / Stuart are not top international standard (but are the best we have). I can’t see any THP coming through in the next few years (the current u20 are too young) which is a worry.

Why M Smith outside a conservative 9 ( not that JVP is naturally conservative imo). Quick ball is what he thrives on, also play broken with a threat inside.

I have read reports mentioning NZ hurting teams because they can play so quickly. Hoping to slow them down or kicking more (especially late in the game) seems the wrong response if we are to beat them. We need to match them for speed of thought and action. Marcus is essential in that aim and the quicker he gets the ball the better. I'm not a Randall fan but he is a better bench option than Spencer with speed of delivery in mind. Marcus is far and away our best carrying FH. His eye for a break keeps the opposition defence tight and creates space outside. It is time to back him not doubt him.

.....not many, if any sides, match NZ in speed and action (our rugby pyramid isn't yet good enough for that; skills levels under pressure still lacking, decision making more so), but you have to have the ability to shift gears and plans, and as Timbo pointed out out, we (nearly) have the mobility to play with more pace and width (though again exposed at breakdowns wider from the initial play). Marcus cost us the game imo with his misses, but sh*t happens. I'm more worried about his ability to run a cohesive backline tbh- he's a nightmare to play outside unless you are really used to reading his body language I'd think. Very talented, and his defensive shift and backfield play was very solid. I would give him another go.

[Oakboy]

With NZ getting the upper hand at the breakdown yesterday and allowing for them probably getting better there next week, how can we improve? I thought CCS was our best back rower but he was taken off early. I'm more concerned about the competitive edge of the other two - not that they are bad players but that they came second to their opposite numbers. Was it Earl's first bad game in the 8 shirt?

[Banquo]

With NZ getting the upper hand at the breakdown yesterday and allowing for them probably getting better there next week, how can we improve? I thought CCS was our best back rower but he was taken off early. I'm more concerned about the competitive edge of the other two - not that they are bad players but that they came second to their opposite numbers. Was it Earl's first bad game in the 8 shirt?

Breakdown is much more than the backrow though. Its whoever is nearest making the right decisions, plus runners not getting isolated, staying on their feet long enough..etc.

[Puja]

I thought Underhill was superb actually. Very strong in the breakdown and incredible in defence - his tackling was momentum-changing on several occasions. Earl was exceptionally average, but I'm willing to give him a bad game given his credit in the bank and the fact that I think the step up to a higher level gave him a shock which he'll hopefully be better for next week.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Underhill was very good.

Dont think Earl was quite at his best but he made some telling contributions.

CCS is an obvious keeper who will wear the 6 shirt for a long time assuming he stays fit. Subbed at 51 minutes which was way too early.

[Timbo]

I thought the breakdown was pretty competitive with not a huge amount in it. You always remember your own team failing to get quick ball or being turned over, but we were actually credited with 6 ruck turnovers. After the first quarter we also managed to slow the AB ball up considerably. Their phase play really didn’t make a dent for the last 50 odd minutes.

As for Earl, it was a bad miss for their second try, but his workrate was insane. Can’t be calling it a bad game when he knits so much of our play together on both sides of the ball. 19 tackles and 24 carries, had by far the highest Actions per Minute ratio in the match.