NZ vs England - round 2

[Puja]

Marler confirmed as out of the Test, so Manny Iyogun called up as back-up. Gods save us if Baxter goes down injured this week!

Puja

[FKAS]

I mean we're probably screwed at scrum time and it'll be a case of survival. Baxter did well to survive as well as he did yesterday. It's picking two of three young looseheads and hoping they can scrum low enough to negate the AB size advantage. Hopefully we're in the ear of officials during the week about the ABs not supporting their weight with their feet to far back. They got away with a couple of those yesterday and doubled out on their luck when sir insisted we raise the scrum height for stability.

[Puja]

I mean we're probably screwed at scrum time and it'll be a case of survival. Baxter did well to survive as well as he did yesterday. It's picking two of three young looseheads and hoping they can scrum low enough to negate the AB size advantage. Hopefully we're in the ear of officials during the week about the ABs not supporting their weight with their feet to far back. They got away with a couple of those yesterday and doubled out on their luck when sir insisted we raise the scrum height for stability.

I mean, Baxter is verging on being better than Marler for Quins, so I'm fine with him starting. Rodd's more of a worry, but he has survived against a South African scrum with a much weaker pack than he'll have on Saturday, so he's definitely capable of doing it.

Puja

[FKAS]

I mean we're probably screwed at scrum time and it'll be a case of survival. Baxter did well to survive as well as he did yesterday. It's picking two of three young looseheads and hoping they can scrum low enough to negate the AB size advantage. Hopefully we're in the ear of officials during the week about the ABs not supporting their weight with their feet to far back. They got away with a couple of those yesterday and doubled out on their luck when sir insisted we raise the scrum height for stability.

I mean, Baxter is verging on being better than Marler for Quins, so I'm fine with him starting. Rodd's more of a worry, but he has survived against a South African scrum with a much weaker pack than he'll have on Saturday, so he's definitely capable of doing it.

Puja

There's a difference between club level and international level. I fully expect Baxter to be a very good international loosehead within a pretty short period of time. Going to be some learning experiences on the way though, Marler has been around the block a couple of times and knows all the tricks and skullduggery. At international level sometimes experience matters.

Might be a tough day at the office for him again but he did a fair job playing a lot of minutes in the first test. Hopefully he'll be able to concentrate his effort into less minutes for the second test. He'll certainly learn a few things along the way.

Ioygen is very raw but he's also very powerful and compact. Might be worth a gamble off the bench.

[fivepointer]

Such a pity Val R-R had a season wrecked by injury and Obano is banned.

Iyogun has come on leaps and bounds. Its asking an awful lot for him to step up, though.

Baxter did well after a couple of difficult early scrums. He's a quick learner and i've got as lot of confidence in him.

[morepork]

I really hope you don't revert to playing not to lose and keep playing with intent.

[Danno]

I really hope you don't revert to playing not to lose and keep playing with intent.

The lads had enough of that in the 6n and laid down the law. Hopefully they'll stick to that attitude.

[Mikey Brown]

Obama must regret that high tackle so much. His team lose the final and he misses out on the perfect chance to get a run at the England 1 shirt.

I can’t say I’d figured Lyogun was on the radar but I don’t know who else would get the shot.

Watching the highlights back Baxter does appear in support at a few very key attacking rucks just in time. A pretty good shift for a first start, but an obvious step up and a lot to learn still in the scrum.

[Danno]

#thanks Obama

[Puja]

Obama must regret that high tackle so much. His team lose the final and he misses out on the perfect chance to get a run at the England 1 shirt.

I can’t say I’d figured Lyogun was on the radar but I don’t know who else would get the shot.

Watching the highlights back Baxter does appear in support at a few very key attacking rucks just in time. A pretty good shift for a first start, but an obvious step up and a lot to learn still in the scrum.

Brantingham would've been my choice to be next up, but his cause has definitely suffered from Diamond being a petty git and not playing him after he agreed to join Saracens. Hard to call up someone who hasn't played since March.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Agreed on Brantingham > Iyogun.

Hopefully the move to Saracens will work out well and he becomes a strong option at loosehead.

Re. this week’s lineup, I’d simply swap Baxter in for Marler, start Cole alongside him and leave the other 13 as they were.

I think it has to be Rodd on the bench as Iyogun hasn’t even been in training squads so will be unfamiliar with the defensive set up etc. It’s just too much to expect him to fly around the world and play in a test match 5 days later.

Other than that, I’d swap out Spencer for Randall and that’s it. Coles didn’t impress but I’m not sure bringing Isiekwe in is much of an improvement.

[Puja]

Agreed on Brantingham > Iyogun.

Hopefully the move to Saracens will work out well and he becomes a strong option at loosehead.

Re. this week’s lineup, I’d simply swap Baxter in for Marler, start Cole alongside him and leave the other 13 as they were.

I think it has to be Rodd on the bench as Iyogun hasn’t even been in training squads so will be unfamiliar with the defensive set up etc. It’s just too much to expect him to fly around the world and play in a test match 5 days later.

Other than that, I’d swap out Spencer for Randall and that’s it. Coles didn’t impress but I’m not sure bringing Isiekwe in is much of an improvement.

Agreed on your XXIII, although it's a touch harsh on Stuart, who I thought had a decent game in the round. Spencer should not be anywhere near the England shirt ever again - that's two caps in a row where he's been brought on and then killed the last 10-15 minutes, while we were behind, with slow play and incredibly ineffective kicking that hands possession to the opposition. Defending a lead that no-one's told him we don't actually have.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Yes, it’s harsh on Stuart but less about him and more about the loss of Marler (and Genge).

Cole is better starting than finishing IMO and has the vast experience to balance out the fact that Baxter has only 62mins under his belt.

It also seems as though Borthwick is balancing his front row to have one prop primarily there for the scrum with the other there for their play in the loose. With Marler out, the obvious choice for scrummaging prop is Cole.

Baxter is good in the loose, but I wouldn’t be totally surprised to see Rodd start with Cole to have the Baxter/Stuart combo on the bench.

[Banquo]

Agreed on Brantingham > Iyogun.

Hopefully the move to Saracens will work out well and he becomes a strong option at loosehead.

Re. this week’s lineup, I’d simply swap Baxter in for Marler, start Cole alongside him and leave the other 13 as they were.

I think it has to be Rodd on the bench as Iyogun hasn’t even been in training squads so will be unfamiliar with the defensive set up etc. It’s just too much to expect him to fly around the world and play in a test match 5 days later.

Other than that, I’d swap out Spencer for Randall and that’s it. Coles didn’t impress but I’m not sure bringing Isiekwe in is much of an improvement.

Not sure why he (or Eddie) thought playing Coles at 6 is/was a great idea. He's ok there for Saints, just, though hasn't been there much for a year or so. He's a very good mobile lock, who hits good lines and has a great motor.

[FKAS]

Agreed on Brantingham > Iyogun.

Hopefully the move to Saracens will work out well and he becomes a strong option at loosehead.

Re. this week’s lineup, I’d simply swap Baxter in for Marler, start Cole alongside him and leave the other 13 as they were.

I think it has to be Rodd on the bench as Iyogun hasn’t even been in training squads so will be unfamiliar with the defensive set up etc. It’s just too much to expect him to fly around the world and play in a test match 5 days later.

Other than that, I’d swap out Spencer for Randall and that’s it. Coles didn’t impress but I’m not sure bringing Isiekwe in is much of an improvement.

Not sure why he (or Eddie) thought playing Coles at 6 is/was a great idea. He's ok there for Saints, just, though hasn't been there much for a year or so. He's a very good mobile lock, who hits good lines and has a great motor.

Twenty appearances at blindside including four for Saints this season, the last being in the East Mids Derby in April. It's not an unusual position for him to cover. He's made 58 starts at lock for comparison.

He's not good enough to displace either lock who can normally keep up their efforts for the full 80 whereas the backrow tends to tire under Borthwick's demanding defence routine. Hence h can come on for CCS and the lineout can still function, we really needed three jumpers as well as Robertson likes the set piece and the ABs regularly contested.

[Banquo]

Agreed on Brantingham > Iyogun.

Hopefully the move to Saracens will work out well and he becomes a strong option at loosehead.

Re. this week’s lineup, I’d simply swap Baxter in for Marler, start Cole alongside him and leave the other 13 as they were.

I think it has to be Rodd on the bench as Iyogun hasn’t even been in training squads so will be unfamiliar with the defensive set up etc. It’s just too much to expect him to fly around the world and play in a test match 5 days later.

Other than that, I’d swap out Spencer for Randall and that’s it. Coles didn’t impress but I’m not sure bringing Isiekwe in is much of an improvement.

Not sure why he (or Eddie) thought playing Coles at 6 is/was a great idea. He's ok there for Saints, just, though hasn't been there much for a year or so. He's a very good mobile lock, who hits good lines and has a great motor.

Twenty appearances at blindside including four for Saints this season, the last being in the East Mids Derby in April. It's not an unusual position for him to cover. He's made 58 starts at lock for comparison.

He's not good enough to displace either lock who can normally keep up their efforts for the full 80 whereas the backrow tends to tire under Borthwick's demanding defence routine. Hence h can come on for CCS and the lineout can still function, we really needed three jumpers as well as Robertson likes the set piece and the ABs regularly contested.

My point being he's not played much at blindside in the last 18 months for Saints, and there's a good reason for it. I understand the rationale for having someone like him to come on, I'm just suggesting the reasons why he might be deemed 'disappointing' when coming on at 6 (he was massively exposed there under Eddie), as both you and Scrumhead have alluded to; its lovely that the lineout continued to function, but you lose in the loose. I don't want to have the same debate with you again, as I have said I don't think he's better than Itoje or Martin.

[Scrumhead]

I was disappointed because I like Coles and I think he should be our 4th choice lock (behind Itoje, Martin and Chessum). Regardless of where he packed down, he didn’t do anything well with the lowlight being the needless no arms tackle.

[Stom]

We’re always going to lose out with a lock at 6. And can we trust a 6 at lock if there’s an injury? Since Lawes I’m not sure. But, hey, maybe we should give it a go. We have 3 players who can play lock to some extent in CCS, Ted, and Dombrandt. Do we pick one of them on the bench covering lock?

CCS surely not (for now, at least)

[Banquo]

I was disappointed because I like Coles and I think he should be our 4th choice lock (behind Itoje, Martin and Chessum). Regardless of where he packed down, he didn’t do anything well with the lowlight being the needless no arms tackle.

as I said I agree on him being 4th choice lock. I don't think it helped sticking him at 6, that's all, though plenty of players also did needless stuff

[Banquo]

We’re always going to lose out with a lock at 6. And can we trust a 6 at lock if there’s an injury? Since Lawes I’m not sure. But, hey, maybe we should give it a go. We have 3 players who can play lock to some extent in CCS, Ted, and Dombrandt. Do we pick one of them on the bench covering lock?

CCS surely not (for now, at least)

its just as much an issue having a 6 cover lock as the other way round tbh. Unless you can do both roles well internationally its flawed imo.

[Scrumhead]

I know you did. I was clarifying what disappointed me about Cole’s’ cameo.

We’re always going to lose out with a lock at 6. And can we trust a 6 at lock if there’s an injury? Since Lawes I’m not sure. But, hey, maybe we should give it a go. We have 3 players who can play lock to some extent in CCS, Ted, and Dombrandt. Do we pick one of them on the bench covering lock?

CCS surely not (for now, at least)

If Carnduff keeps developing as he has so far, he could be the guy to fill that role.

[Banquo]

I know you did. I was clarifying what disappointed me about Cole’s’ cameo.

We’re always going to lose out with a lock at 6. And can we trust a 6 at lock if there’s an injury? Since Lawes I’m not sure. But, hey, maybe we should give it a go. We have 3 players who can play lock to some extent in CCS, Ted, and Dombrandt. Do we pick one of them on the bench covering lock?

CCS surely not (for now, at least)

If Carnduff keeps developing as he has so far, he could be the guy to fill that role.

I think the context is a factor.
And I'm not sure he 'didn't do anything well'- he took a lineout well iirc . The noted thing was very poor, fortunately McKenzie let him off (iirc).
I also like him as 4th choice lock, and I'm a bit biased cos Mrs B taught him and he's a top lad. But I'm not blind to his 'development opportunities'.

[p/d]

Rodd should be a straight swap for Marler. I would also start Cole and keep Baxter/Stuart on bench

Then hope George hits his jumpers ….. I know. It wasn’t his fault

[Puja]

Rodd should be a straight swap for Marler. I would also start Cole and keep Baxter/Stuart on bench

Then hope George hits his jumpers ….. I know. It wasn’t his fault

Why would you not start Baxter, given how well he did for 60 minutes last week?

Puja

[Banquo]

Rodd should be a straight swap for Marler. I would also start Cole and keep Baxter/Stuart on bench

Then hope George hits his jumpers ….. I know. It wasn’t his fault

them lineouts have become complicated since front middle back (or JFM ::).