Snap General Election called

[Banquo]

Except for false claims
Of £350m a week

so no false claims by Labour or the libral demcrats ? . i was mildly joking.

Nothing quite as blatant by anyone as that total bollocks.

lying be lying whatever the scale.

[Banquo]

Also the high likelihood of a landslide would put some people off voting. Must have contributed a bit to the lower turnout.

aye, as said above

[Mikey Brown]

A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

[Banquo]

A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

well if everyone said that, we are truly fucked. Kind of a catch 22 innit....and how much time are we really talking about giving up?

[Mikey Brown]

Of course, yeah, I’m just saying it’s not a question with such a simple answer.

For me it took an extra 5 minutes out of my day. I’m very fortunate. I’m not trekking hours back and forth from a minimum wage job (or two) or dragging a bunch of kids around (or trying to find someone to take care of them on the cheap) in order to change the tally by 1.

Obviously in the real world most politicians aren’t going to use their time and resources on people that don’t care, but it works both ways.

[Stom]

TBF, there were a good number of constituencies where the incumbent won by a substantial amount. In Twickenham, for example, where the Lib Dem MP won 30,000 votes and the Tory 8,000. With the hassle of setting up postal or proxy votes, it was pointless for me, as it was a foregone conclusion.

There is also a massive voter apathy as no party is interested in people.

[Stom]

Of course, yeah, I’m just saying it’s not a question with such a simple answer.

For me it took an extra 5 minutes out of my day. I’m very fortunate. I’m not trekking hours back and forth from a minimum wage job (or two) or dragging a bunch of kids around (or trying to find someone to take care of them on the cheap) in order to change the tally by 1.

Obviously in the real world most politicians aren’t going to use their time and resources on people that don’t care, but it works both ways.

Well, as that's their job...

[Son of Mathonwy]

Although we're probably all happy to see the backs of the tories. There's potentially a lack of democratic legitimacy here.

No one should get a majority on a third of the votes, let alone a massive majority. Starmer was very lucky to win on that share. He needs to do a great job now because his luck will probably not hold (ie the right wing vote will not be split) next time and his ability to brush off PR crises is not the best.

If the Labour 5 year plan looks like it's failing with a year to go he might be wise to introduce PR.

[Sandydragon]

A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

And if they don’t vote the they will continue to get the short end of a shitty stick. Old people tend to vote more, so politicians pander to them. It’s really that simple.

[cashead]

Each vote not cast is a vote for whomever wins.

Said it before, and I'll say it again.

Well, if one is not happy about the government they ended up with, then perhaps, one could have mustered up enough fucks on the relevant day to go out and vote.

You end up with the government you didn't vote for, and unlike those who did vote, you don't get to complain either.

[Mikey Brown]

A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

And if they don’t vote the they will continue to get the short end of a shitty stick. Old people tend to vote more, so politicians pander to them. It’s really that simple.

Well yeah. Obviously. My question was why anyone seems to be surprised about low voter turnout. People don’t feel they’ve missed out if they never felt there was anything to be gained.

[Puja]

A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

And if they don’t vote the they will continue to get the short end of a shitty stick. Old people tend to vote more, so politicians pander to them. It’s really that simple.

But young people did vote in large numbers in 2017 and 2019. From their perspective, it got them nowhere, and the guy who came in to replace the one they voted for, took away all of the policies and positions that attracted them, and scoured the party clear of any hint of those policies and positions coming back in future. I don't disagree with your "don't vote, don't complain" position in the slightest, but I also do get why quite a few feel like they're not going to get listened to even when they do vote.

Puja

[Stom]

A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

And if they don’t vote the they will continue to get the short end of a shitty stick. Old people tend to vote more, so politicians pander to them. It’s really that simple.

But young people did vote in large numbers in 2017 and 2019. From their perspective, it got them nowhere, and the guy who came in to replace the one they voted for, took away all of the policies and positions that attracted them, and scoured the party clear of any hint of those policies and positions coming back in future. I don't disagree with your "don't vote, don't complain" position in the slightest, but I also do get why quite a few feel like they're not going to get listened to even when they do vote.

Puja

Exactly. When the vote is for someone who represents their views vs someone who does not, it’s easy. When it’s between two people who seemingly do not care about you at all…

[Which Tyler]

I've never really agreed with the argument that if you don't vote, then you obviously don't care, and you can't complain.
I don't think I've ever not voted, but I've done a couple of spoiled ballots (write-in for "none of the above").

Feeling disenfranchised and having a vote that makes to difference to anything isn't a good feeling. I completely understand being young, naîve and idealistic, and refusing to give your approval to someone you don't approve of.
If the menu is "thin gruel", "poison" or "crushed glass" deciding to have the gruel is valid - so is deciding not to eat.

I'm older now, I'm more tempered by cynicism, and I'm better versed in UK politics, I'd always have the gruel in that analogy. 30 years ago, I refused to participate in a broken system and give it my tacit approval by doing so (and further, uselessly registered my disapproval of the broken system, in full knowledge that my "protest" was both impotent and silent).

[Son of Mathonwy]

I've never really agreed with the argument that if you don't vote, then you obviously don't care, and you can't complain.
I don't think I've ever not voted, but I've done a couple of spoiled ballots (write-in for "none of the above").

Feeling disenfranchised and having a vote that makes to difference to anything isn't a good feeling. I completely understand being young, naîve and idealistic, and refusing to give your approval to someone you don't approve of.
If the menu is "thin gruel", "poison" or "crushed glass" deciding to have the gruel is valid - so is deciding not to eat.

I'm older now, I'm more tempered by cynicism, and I'm better versed in UK politics, I'd always have the gruel in that analogy. 30 years ago, I refused to participate in a broken system and give it my tacit approval by doing so (and further, uselessly registered my disapproval of the broken system, in full knowledge that my "protest" was both impotent and silent).

I don't feel a strong duty to vote no matter what (although I can see the 'hard-won freedoms' argument). It depends what's on offer. If there is little difference between the options then a non vote or even better a spoiled ballot is a valid choice. However, there was a fair range on offer this time. Even though most votes in our vaguely democratic system are wasted it still makes sense to vote for that small party which reflects your views (as we have seen, fringe parties can become non-fringe) or, in a marginal seat, a tactical vote for a less bad party.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I wonder if Labour will actually give 16-17 year olds the vote. They would end up boosting the Green vote, or (maybe?) even the Farage vote. For Corbyn it was a no-brainer; for Starmer it might not be a clear-cut thing.

[Which Tyler]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... rch-finds-

Largest UK public sector trial of four-day week sees huge benefits, research finds

Exclusive: South Cambridgeshire experiment led to fewer refuse collectors quitting and faster planning decisions

...

The multi-year study of the trial involving about 450 desk staff plus refuse collectors found:

Staff turnover fell by 39%, helping save £371,500 in a year, mostly on agency staff costs.

Regular household planning applications were decided about a week and a half earlier.

Approximately 15% more major planning application decisions were completed within the correct timescale, compared with before.

The time taken to process changes to housing benefit and council tax benefit claims fell.

On the downside, rent collection for council housing worsened slightly, although this was attributed to the cost of living crisis. The speed with which empty council houses were relet fell slightly, from 28 to 30 days on average. The results were adjusted for the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic.

...

ARTICLE CONTINUES

Of course, telegraph and mail are completely ignoring this, in favour of the failed Asda trial (4x 11-hour days resulting in burnout; therefore a 4-day week is ideological claptrap that doesn't stand up to scrutiny (if you deliberately sabotage the trial))

[Which Tyler]

I don't feel a strong duty to vote no matter what (although I can see the 'hard-won freedoms' argument). It depends what's on offer. If there is little difference between the options then a non vote or even better a spoiled ballot is a valid choice. However, there was a fair range on offer this time. Even though most votes in our vaguely democratic system are wasted it still makes sense to vote for that small party which reflects your views (as we have seen, fringe parties can become non-fringe) or, in a marginal seat, a tactical vote for a less bad party.

This time, yes, there's a huge difference between the 2 main parties, and notable differences between the smaller ones. But it's not always the case. It's also not always the case that there ARE minor parties standing in your constituency.

I'll just an example from my life.
1997, the Blair landslide.
Idealistic young me didn't want to vote labour, because it felt like a cult of personality, and young-me didn't particularly mind John Major (especially after the horrors of Thatcher) but dislike the tories, whilst LibDems were how my parents voted, and therefore to be rebelled against.
Where I lived, my voting options were Labour, Conservative, LibDem, UKIP or Referendum (UKIP on steroids).
I wasn't going to endorse any of the 3 parties, and I most certainly wasn't going to vote for one of the minor parties available to me.
In the 1997 labour landslide, where I lived, the conservative got double the votes of the LibDem, who in turn got double the votes of labour, who in turn got double the votes of the 2 wierdos. My vote wasn't going to change anything, and it was tough for young-me to pick between 3 varieties of thin gruel.

Idealistic me wasn't prepared to give any of them his vote. Old me absolutely defends the right of young-me to complain about the result of that election, despite having registered a spoiled ballot (and despite being pleased that Blair inevitably won).

[Puja]

On the politics of today, I am really impressed by Starmer bringing James Timpson in as prisons minister. Timpsons' has always walked the walk on employing ex-offenders and has a history of campaigning for rehabilitation rather than institutionalisation. How much he'll be able to get done, I don't know, but it's nice to have a minister selected who has practical knowledge and expertise, as well as a very laudable starting position of "mass criminalisation is failing the country and its citizens" rather than "we need to build more prisons to lock up all these scumbags" that we've become used to.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

On the politics of today, I am really impressed by Starmer bringing James Timpson in as prisons minister. Timpsons' has always walked the walk on employing ex-offenders and has a history of campaigning for rehabilitation rather than institutionalisation. How much he'll be able to get done, I don't know, but it's nice to have a minister selected who has practical knowledge and expertise, as well as a very laudable starting position of "mass criminalisation is failing the country and its citizens" rather than "we need to build more prisons to lock up all these scumbags" that we've become used to.

Puja

Yeah, I'd never heard of him before but someone who believes in rehabilitation is a welcome change.

[Stom]

To be honest, the entire day has been a real breath of fresh air. Everyone singing from the same sheet, everyone talking the talk, the whole thing seems really thought through.

Yes, that should be the bare minimum, but the past years have been so poor…

[Puja]

On the politics of today, I am really impressed by Starmer bringing James Timpson in as prisons minister. Timpsons' has always walked the walk on employing ex-offenders and has a history of campaigning for rehabilitation rather than institutionalisation. How much he'll be able to get done, I don't know, but it's nice to have a minister selected who has practical knowledge and expertise, as well as a very laudable starting position of "mass criminalisation is failing the country and its citizens" rather than "we need to build more prisons to lock up all these scumbags" that we've become used to.

Puja

Yeah, I'd never heard of him before but someone who believes in rehabilitation is a welcome change.

Timpsons have always been incredible - they offer a free dry-cleaning service to anyone who's unemployed/homeless and needs a clean outfit for a job interview, as well as funding 48 hour suit hire in places, and they make a point to employ ex-offenders and hire from job fayres in prisons, as well as actually look after their staff's mental health, rather than just give lip service to it, they pay the National Living Wage and profit share with employees, they have a ridiculous list of benefits for employees - they've just brilliant. They will always have my business whenever I have something needs doing that they do.

I mean, look at this! https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/working ... /benefits/

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

On the politics of today, I am really impressed by Starmer bringing James Timpson in as prisons minister. Timpsons' has always walked the walk on employing ex-offenders and has a history of campaigning for rehabilitation rather than institutionalisation. How much he'll be able to get done, I don't know, but it's nice to have a minister selected who has practical knowledge and expertise, as well as a very laudable starting position of "mass criminalisation is failing the country and its citizens" rather than "we need to build more prisons to lock up all these scumbags" that we've become used to.

Puja

Yeah, I'd never heard of him before but someone who believes in rehabilitation is a welcome change.

Timpsons have always been incredible - they offer a free dry-cleaning service to anyone who's unemployed/homeless and needs a clean outfit for a job interview, as well as funding 48 hour suit hire in places, and they make a point to employ ex-offenders and hire from job fayres in prisons, as well as actually look after their staff's mental health, rather than just give lip service to it, they pay the National Living Wage and profit share with employees, they have a ridiculous list of benefits for employees - they've just brilliant. They will always have my business whenever I have something needs doing that they do.

I mean, look at this! https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/working ... /benefits/

Puja

Heroic!!

[Banquo]

To be honest, the entire day has been a real breath of fresh air. Everyone singing from the same sheet, everyone talking the talk, the whole thing seems really thought through.

Yes, that should be the bare minimum, but the past years have been so poor…

agreed- they do actually seem to have planned extremely well. Cunning to hide their hand in reality.

[Which Tyler]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/09/home-office-flying-of-pride-flag-was-monstrous-thing-says-suella-braverman

I agree with Braverman - in as much as there was something monstrous in the Home Office. I disagree that the monstrous thing was the pride flag.


Wasn't it, like, four days ago, that she apologising for this shite?