NZ vs England - round 2

[Banquo]

Worked annoyingly well at the weekend though didn't it.

Robertson likes his set piece. Lineout, rolling maul and scrum were all go to areas of strength for his Crusaders.

if as as mikey says, not that impactful- can't say I noticed the switch in honesty.
All coaches should like a set piece tbh, if they don't, they are mad.

All coaches want a set piece that's reliably solid. Some coaches want a set piece that's a weapon. Borthwick and Robertson both want it as a weapon.

I think they'd all want it as a weapon if they could. Could being the operative word.

[FKAS]

if as as mikey says, not that impactful- can't say I noticed the switch in honesty.
All coaches should like a set piece tbh, if they don't, they are mad.

All coaches want a set piece that's reliably solid. Some coaches want a set piece that's a weapon. Borthwick and Robertson both want it as a weapon.

I think they'd all want it as a weapon if they could. Could being the operative word.

Quite. Some emphasise it more than others.

[Banquo]

Borthwick has specifically referenced speed to the breakdown since the match. Maybe he realises he needs to compromise at the lineout if he’s wedded to the expansive attack. Lawes was a bit of cheat code in his last two international seasons. CCS could get to that level quickish but after him that style of no6 is either non existent or sat home/on a beach clearly out of the picture.

I'd say it's more speed of thought and decision-making, rather than speed of foot - CCS has the distinct advantage over other times we've tried to have a tall 6 in that he is actually a back row who can play lock, rather than just a mobile lock, so he's got the instincts already.



Puja

Been banging on about this for years, but also execution at speed/fatigued/under pressure. And foot speed tbh

And on the instincts- yes, but they need honing and hard work at this level...... and a complete uplift for the whole team.

[Banquo]

All coaches want a set piece that's reliably solid. Some coaches want a set piece that's a weapon. Borthwick and Robertson both want it as a weapon.

I think they'd all want it as a weapon if they could. Could being the operative word.

Quite. Some emphasise it more than others.

Because they can, normally.

[Mellsblue]

Borthwick has specifically referenced speed to the breakdown since the match. Maybe he realises he needs to compromise at the lineout if he’s wedded to the expansive attack. Lawes was a bit of cheat code in his last two international seasons. CCS could get to that level quickish but after him that style of no6 is either non existent or sat home/on a beach clearly out of the picture.

I'd say it's more speed of thought and decision-making, rather than speed of foot - CCS has the distinct advantage over other times we've tried to have a tall 6 in that he is actually a back row who can play lock, rather than just a mobile lock, so he's got the instincts already.

Sometimes though, it's just a case that you have to accept turnovers will occasionally happen when you play expansively against a very good team. One of the ones I saw in the m-b-m, Mitchell gets tackled and Underhill looks for the pop pass offload off the deck that could've kept an overlap alive - in that second of delay, Codie Taylor pulls off a ridiculous steal of the ball. Yes, Underhill could've secured the ball and, with hindsight, should've done, but that doesn't mean I don't want him calling for that offload 10 times out of 10 in that exact situation. Gotta take risks if we want to score tries.

Puja

Well, quite re the first para. Nobody would ever describe Lawes as fast but he lost a few kg and got used to playing 6 full time, and he became a world class blindside.

Nobody is talking perfection just improvement and, I’m suggesting, a change in emphasis from Stupendous Backplay.

[Puja]

Teams're out:

New Zealand: Perofeta; Reece, Ioane, J Barrett, Tele'a; McKenzie, Christie; De Groot, Taylor, Lomax, S Barrett (capt), Tuipulotu, Finau, Papali'i, Savea.

Replacements: Aumua, Tu'ungafasi, Newell, Vaa'i, Jacobson, Ratima, Lienert-Brown, B Barrett.

England: Furbank; Feyi-Waboso, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman; M Smith, Mitchell; Baxter, George (capt), Stuart, Itoje, Martin, Cunningham-South, Underhill, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Rodd, Cole, Coles, Curry, Spencer, F Smith, Sleightholme.

[Puja]

Massively disappointed to see Spencer still there. IBWT, to a certain extent, but he just seems to be an utter handbrake on the game.

Great opportunity for Baxter and I'm pleased Stuart's kept his place - he had a better game than most people thought and, if we've got in Berry's ear about De Groot's scrummaging, I'm confident that he'll do a good job.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. Although I’d hope it doesn’t need a word in Berry’s ear. De Groot popped up on almost every scrum. I’m amazed it only got pinged once.

Spencer VERY lucky to retain his place. Given there isn’t a 3rd test to think about, I hope we keep Mitchell on for as long as possible.

[Oakboy]

Agreed. Although I’d hope it doesn’t need a word in Berry’s ear. De Groot popped up on almost every scrum. I’m amazed it only got pinged once.

Spencer VERY lucky to retain his place. Given there isn’t a 3rd test to think about, I hope we keep Mitchell on for as long as possible.

Agreed. IF, big IF, Marcus is replaced by Fin, he must come on while Mitchell is still there. Fin's attributes are negated by Spencer box-kicking everything slowly. I want to see Fin bringing the outside backs into the game. I also don't want him standing so deep he has to kick. I'd still love to know what instructions SB gave to the 21/22 when they came on.

[Which Tyler]

I just don't get it with Spencer (a bit like Alex Goode, I guess) so good at club level, so shit at international.
At least with Goode you knew it was the weakness he could get away with at club, being exposed at international, but Spencer seems to play completely differently. I can only think it's paralysis by over-thinking / over-worrying.
Either way, this should be his last cap.

[Beasties]

I just don't get it with Spencer (a bit like Alex Goode, I guess) so good at club level, so shit at international.
At least with Goode you knew it was the weakness he could get away with at club, being exposed at international, but Spencer seems to play completely differently. I can only think it's paralysis by over-thinking / over-worrying.
Either way, this should be his last cap.

This. He’s surely had enough caps now to realise that his play at club level got him picked so why doesn’t he play like that when in an Eng shirt? Could be instructions, but could also be confusion over instructions. Either way, can we have JvP back please, and Quirke.

[fivepointer]

Someone - Wiggy, perhaps? - needs to take Ben aside and say "Mate, just play your game". There's a good player there but he looks like he's scared to do anything that isnt exactly on script.

Making one change is fair enough. The players mostly did very well last week and a week together wont have done them any harm.

Bench does need to show up, though.

[Mellsblue]

Spencer may have been playing to instruction. It wouldn’t be the first time in the IBWT regime that we’ve inexplicably slowed the game down when behind in the last 20mins.

[Oakboy]

Spencer may have been playing to instruction.

I'd guess that's what happened. If not, and he went off-script to such a damaging effect, what's he doing there again ahead of Randall?

[Puja]

Agreed. Although I’d hope it doesn’t need a word in Berry’s ear. De Groot popped up on almost every scrum. I’m amazed it only got pinged once.

You've seen Berry ref before, right? Let's not assume he knows things.

Puja

[FKAS]

Agreed. Although I’d hope it doesn’t need a word in Berry’s ear. De Groot popped up on almost every scrum. I’m amazed it only got pinged once.

You've seen Berry ref before, right? Let's not assume he knows things.

Puja

The Times reporting we've sought clarification over interpretation following de Groot's "extreme" scrummaging.

[Danno]

Agreed. Although I’d hope it doesn’t need a word in Berry’s ear. De Groot popped up on almost every scrum. I’m amazed it only got pinged once.

You've seen Berry ref before, right? Let's not assume he knows things.

Puja

The Times reporting we've sought clarification over interpretation following de Groot's "extreme" scrummaging.

I'd call it extreme "scrummaging" given how little interest he had in being in there

[Danno]

Furbank out crocked, Steward in.



Hope he finds that attacking game.

[twitchy]

That's... not ideal.

[Mellsblue]

Ffs

[FKAS]

Furbank was very effective against the ABs in the first test. Definitely not ideal to lose him for the second test. Big chance for Freddie to show that there's more to his game and that he can offer a cohesive counter attacking threat and not just a Mike Brown V2.

If the ABs do go to the more kick heavy game plan we saw from them in the second half then Freddie will help defuse that though there is the concern we'll end up in a kicking exchange if he can't bring the counter attack game plan to life.

[Mikey Brown]

I’ve been very impressed with Furbank, I thought he was another Goode and wasn’t sure he’d be able to step up, but I’m not exactly gutted to have Steward in place. He’s not go the vision/handling of Furbank but I think people have gone a bit OTT on his (lack of) attacking play.

I feel like a lot of his games have been during a pretty duff period of attack (or even attempting to attack) by both England and Leicester.

Was Furbank coming in during the 6 nations the catalyst for England or was that just a selection that lined up with a general change of ethos?

I’m sure he’ll be grand.

[fivepointer]

Not ideal to lose Furbank but at least Steward is an accomplished, experienced player who should slot straight in.

[Scrumhead]

I’ve been very impressed with Furbank, I thought he was another Goode and wasn’t sure he’d be able to step up, but I’m not exactly gutted to have Steward in place. He’s not go the vision/handling of Furbank but I think people have gone a bit OTT on his (lack of) attacking play.

I feel like a lot of his games have been during a pretty duff period of attack (or even attempting to attack) by both England and Leicester.

Was Furbank coming in during the 6 nations the catalyst for England or was that just a selection that lined up with a general change of ethos?

I’m sure he’ll be grand.

100% agree. Re. your question, my take is that it’s closer to the latter. However, Furbank’s skill set aligns better to the type of game we’re developing.

Steward is surely looking at this as a chance to get his place back. I’d hope he is coming in with a real point to prove.

I don’t love this idea, but if it’s really not working we could bring Fin Smith on at 10 and shift Marcus to 15.

[Adam_P]

I’ve been very impressed with Furbank, I thought he was another Goode and wasn’t sure he’d be able to step up, but I’m not exactly gutted to have Steward in place. He’s not go the vision/handling of Furbank but I think people have gone a bit OTT on his (lack of) attacking play.

I feel like a lot of his games have been during a pretty duff period of attack (or even attempting to attack) by both England and Leicester.

Was Furbank coming in during the 6 nations the catalyst for England or was that just a selection that lined up with a general change of ethos?

I’m sure he’ll be grand.

I don’t love this idea, but if it’s really not working we could bring Fin Smith on at 10 and shift Marcus to 15.

Freeman to 15 and Sleightholme to wing is surely preferable to Smith at 15?