Euros Finals 24 - Germany

[Galfon]

Probably Southgate's last chance to win something, but would be suprised if his team has the nous or toughness to navigate the latter stages.A few brave calls on selection.
Can see a bit of over reliance on Bellingham early on.

[Donny osmond]

All available evidence so far points to Scotland being the 2nd best team in this competition. Bring it hame lads!

[Mellsblue]

All available evidence so far points to Scotland being the 2nd best team in this competition. Bring it hame lads!

[Stom]

Who would have thought that having it so only 8 teams got knocked out would lead to the most boring round of football matches in history...

This Euros has been awful so far. Spain played some good stuff for one game. Ditto Germany. Austria have looked good. The rest? Awful.

[Stom]

lol. So we're awful, but everything is clearing up for us to get to the final, still...

LOL.

[Buggaluggs]

I watch more rugby than football, so maybe I'm just naive about tactics. But don't some teams do well trying to kick it towards the goal once in a while?

[Stom]

I watch more rugby than football, so maybe I'm just naive about tactics. But don't some teams do well trying to kick it towards the goal once in a while?

England needed a Brentford player on the pitch to actually turn up

[Galfon]

I watch more rugby than football, so maybe I'm just naive about tactics. But don't some teams do well trying to kick it towards the goal once in a while?

Spain and Germany worked this out a while ago and look more than useful.Keeps the beer flowing if nothing else.
Unlikely to see the Swiss roll in the QF's..

[Puja]

[morepork]

Oopsies.

[Galfon]

Euros lexiconfusion:

-high press..
-low block ..
-transition..
-snickometer.
-free at the back - back line of more than 2, but less than 4.
-frust in midfield - positive central player
-fret up front - dangerous attacker.
-bellinum - bellingham
-burminum - birmingham

[Puja]

Watching England play in the football is oddly reminiscent of watch Ben Spencer throw away the rugby earlier - really feels like they're doing an excellent job of defending a lead that no-one's told them they don't actually have.

Puja

[Banquo]

Watching England play in the football is oddly reminiscent of watch Ben Spencer throw away the rugby earlier - really feels like they're doing an excellent job of defending a lead that no-one's told them they don't actually have.

Puja

yus. For a side whose strengths are allegedly in midfield and attack, we don't do much going forward.

[Galfon]

Sir Ollie of Watkinshire ?..his game is based on running and shooting, takes a pass from Palmer whose game tends to involve alot of direct running and shooting...good options for GS tbf ; not sure if it would merit a public holiday should they find a way to beat the tournament's best team on Sun.

[Puja]

Quite evenly balanced so far, which is a good performance from England.

Puja

[Stom]

Quite evenly balanced so far, which is a good performance from England.

Puja

My prediction of drying paint was close, but no cigar.

[Banquo]

Quite evenly balanced so far, which is a good performance from England.

Puja

Spain hammered us in reality. Midfield couldn’t cope.

[Stom]

Quite evenly balanced so far, which is a good performance from England.

Puja

Spain hammered us in reality. Midfield couldn’t cope.

Wasn’t really the midfield’s fault, though: it was our tactical naivety and inability to break through their press. Coupled with the awful kicking from Pickford and the selection of an obviously unfit Kane.

We just could not break through their press, and once we got through one line…we passed it back to start again, ffs. No speed of thought, no flexibility.

We’d shown some signs of tactical flexibility against the Dutch, but then we do the same thing instantly yesterday, despite Spain being a completely different team.

Truth is, this coaching team cannot take this group of players any further. We lose EVERY game against a better ranked team. And this England team is the best/the most balanced we’ve ever seen.

[Puja]

Quite evenly balanced so far, which is a good performance from England.

Puja

Spain hammered us in reality. Midfield couldn’t cope.

Second half was an absolute step-change and Spain just turned on the quality.

Puja

[Puja]

Truth is, this coaching team cannot take this group of players any further. We lose EVERY game against a better ranked team. And this England team is the best/the most balanced we’ve ever seen.

I agree in general, but I think a lot of England fans have forgotten where they've come from when it comes to criticism of Southgate. World Cup semi and quarter and 2 x Euro finals - wasn't so long before that we were struggling to get out of our group. I think a really top-class coach could potentially take us to the next level, but it's hard to tell who's got the chops at international level, and we're never quite as good as we think we are...

Puja

[Banquo]

Quite evenly balanced so far, which is a good performance from England.

Puja

Spain hammered us in reality. Midfield couldn’t cope.

Wasn’t really the midfield’s fault, though: it was our tactical naivety and inability to break through their press. Coupled with the awful kicking from Pickford and the selection of an obviously unfit Kane.

We just could not break through their press, and once we got through one line…we passed it back to start again, ffs. No speed of thought, no flexibility.

We’d shown some signs of tactical flexibility against the Dutch, but then we do the same thing instantly yesterday, despite Spain being a completely different team.

Truth is, this coaching team cannot take this group of players any further. We lose EVERY game against a better ranked team. And this England team is the best/the most balanced we’ve ever seen.

It was the midfield that couldn’t retain the ball because of the press, the movement and touch wasn’t there. And I think they knew it before they started with Pickford wanging it forward early.

Is it balanced? Is is the best ‘team’? We’ve certainly got good players who played well in Rice, Stones, Saka, and Manoo (ish)… but the stars Bellingham, Foden, Kane were pretty mediocre to poor generally.
It seems footie fans always say… great generation of players..it must be the manager. In which case we’ve appointed duff managers since Ramsey… or…maybe our best team/players just aren’t good enough v the top sides?


I personally think the squad was a bit overrated- not real balance frankly, and for sure an element of conservatism for Southgate. But you saw how Spain ripped us apart when we lost the ball going forward….

[Banquo]

Truth is, this coaching team cannot take this group of players any further. We lose EVERY game against a better ranked team. And this England team is the best/the most balanced we’ve ever seen.

I agree in general, but I think a lot of England fans have forgotten where they've come from when it comes to criticism of Southgate. World Cup semi and quarter and 2 x Euro finals - wasn't so long before that we were struggling to get out of our group. I think a really top-class coach could potentially take us to the next level, but it's hard to tell who's got the chops at international level, and we're never quite as good as we think we are...

Puja

This, people forget what a great turnaround Southgate has lead .

[Stom]

Truth is, this coaching team cannot take this group of players any further. We lose EVERY game against a better ranked team. And this England team is the best/the most balanced we’ve ever seen.

I agree in general, but I think a lot of England fans have forgotten where they've come from when it comes to criticism of Southgate. World Cup semi and quarter and 2 x Euro finals - wasn't so long before that we were struggling to get out of our group. I think a really top-class coach could potentially take us to the next level, but it's hard to tell who's got the chops at international level, and we're never quite as good as we think we are...

Puja

THey did do well over the past years. But there comes a time when you say it's time to let Stuart Lancaster go. Oh, sorry.

[Stom]

Spain hammered us in reality. Midfield couldn’t cope.

Wasn’t really the midfield’s fault, though: it was our tactical naivety and inability to break through their press. Coupled with the awful kicking from Pickford and the selection of an obviously unfit Kane.

We just could not break through their press, and once we got through one line…we passed it back to start again, ffs. No speed of thought, no flexibility.

We’d shown some signs of tactical flexibility against the Dutch, but then we do the same thing instantly yesterday, despite Spain being a completely different team.

Truth is, this coaching team cannot take this group of players any further. We lose EVERY game against a better ranked team. And this England team is the best/the most balanced we’ve ever seen.

It was the midfield that couldn’t retain the ball because of the press, the movement and touch wasn’t there. And I think they knew it before they started with Pickford wanging it forward early.

Is it balanced? Is is the best ‘team’? We’ve certainly got good players who played well in Rice, Stones, Saka, and Manoo (ish)… but the stars Bellingham, Foden, Kane were pretty mediocre to poor generally.
It seems footie fans always say… great generation of players..it must be the manager. In which case we’ve appointed duff managers since Ramsey… or…maybe our best team/players just aren’t good enough v the top sides?


I personally think the squad was a bit overrated- not real balance frankly, and for sure an element of conservatism for Southgate. But you saw how Spain ripped us apart when we lost the ball going forward….

We have players who would get into many of the best teams in the world in key positions. Walker has been one of the best RB/inverted fullbacks in the world for a few seasons now, and I don't think many club teams would turn him down. Stones is exceptional and we've found a very good player alongside him in Guehi. We have creative players, tricky players, ball carriers, and press-breakers in the midfield, and we have possibly the best striker in the world up front (when fit), backed up by a player who will fetch north of £50m this summer and who turned around the game against Slovakia when he came on (Toney).

I feel like we don't just have 8 good players, which we've had many times, we have about 16 good players. And if we're being honest, we only really lack a top holding midfielder and a fit left back (Shaw still not fully fit, Rico Henry poorly timed injury...).

On to the tactics and the midfield...

The reason we could not break the press was because there was no rotation. That's a tactical decision. Other teams break the press by rotating players around to pull the opposition out of position. But you rarely see any movement for England except Foden dropping back to play 8 and Kane dropping back to play 10. This isn't on individuals, this is a tactical decision to limit threat.

But that doesn't work because we push our LB up high to try and create space for Bellingham and Foden. Fine, that's OK, except that we had Mainoo acting as an 8, not a double pivot. So when they broke, Rice was often covering twice the space, and Mainoo was nowhere to be seen.

Rice is not good as the lone pivot, as Arsenal discovered.

Now, what could we have done differently?

Well, Spain pressed high. They knew they could leave Rice and Mainoo "unmarked", as they could cut off passing lanes. But we had 2 obvious out balls, as we had physical advantages on both wings. Long, early balls to Saka or Bellingham would see a high chance of us coming out on top against the diving midget or Carvajal (OK, the latter is more difficult, as he's probably the best RB in the world, but Bellingham is definitely better physically, taller, and stronger). And because Shaw was pushing up high, and Foden was there close, we could crowd around to win the second ball, leaving Spain's high press up the pitch and us having a man over against their defence.

But Pickford couldn't hit a cow's arse yesterday (not Southgate's fault), and we used that tactic far less times than we should have.

If we'd shown any change tactically, it would have led to Spain making a change. But we didn't, so they were free to set the tone. And that's England in a nutshell under Southgate: we're very reactive.

I don't think we've appointed a load of duds. I DO think we appointed a load of duds since Sven...Schteve, a disinterested Capello, Hodgson, and pint of wine...wonderful choices there...

One appointment I would both love and hate would be Thomas Frank. But luckily that's not going to happen.

[Banquo]

Wasn’t really the midfield’s fault, though: it was our tactical naivety and inability to break through their press. Coupled with the awful kicking from Pickford and the selection of an obviously unfit Kane.

We just could not break through their press, and once we got through one line…we passed it back to start again, ffs. No speed of thought, no flexibility.

We’d shown some signs of tactical flexibility against the Dutch, but then we do the same thing instantly yesterday, despite Spain being a completely different team.

Truth is, this coaching team cannot take this group of players any further. We lose EVERY game against a better ranked team. And this England team is the best/the most balanced we’ve ever seen.

It was the midfield that couldn’t retain the ball because of the press, the movement and touch wasn’t there. And I think they knew it before they started with Pickford wanging it forward early.

Is it balanced? Is is the best ‘team’? We’ve certainly got good players who played well in Rice, Stones, Saka, and Manoo (ish)… but the stars Bellingham, Foden, Kane were pretty mediocre to poor generally.
It seems footie fans always say… great generation of players..it must be the manager. In which case we’ve appointed duff managers since Ramsey… or…maybe our best team/players just aren’t good enough v the top sides?


I personally think the squad was a bit overrated- not real balance frankly, and for sure an element of conservatism for Southgate. But you saw how Spain ripped us apart when we lost the ball going forward….

We have players who would get into many of the best teams in the world in key positions. Walker has been one of the best RB/inverted fullbacks in the world for a few seasons now, and I don't think many club teams would turn him down. Stones is exceptional and we've found a very good player alongside him in Guehi. We have creative players, tricky players, ball carriers, and press-breakers in the midfield, and we have possibly the best striker in the world up front (when fit), backed up by a player who will fetch north of £50m this summer and who turned around the game against Slovakia when he came on (Toney).

I feel like we don't just have 8 good players, which we've had many times, we have about 16 good players. And if we're being honest, we only really lack a top holding midfielder and a fit left back (Shaw still not fully fit, Rico Henry poorly timed injury...).

On to the tactics and the midfield...

The reason we could not break the press was because there was no rotation. That's a tactical decision. Other teams break the press by rotating players around to pull the opposition out of position. But you rarely see any movement for England except Foden dropping back to play 8 and Kane dropping back to play 10. This isn't on individuals, this is a tactical decision to limit threat.

But that doesn't work because we push our LB up high to try and create space for Bellingham and Foden. Fine, that's OK, except that we had Mainoo acting as an 8, not a double pivot. So when they broke, Rice was often covering twice the space, and Mainoo was nowhere to be seen.

Rice is not good as the lone pivot, as Arsenal discovered.

Now, what could we have done differently?

Well, Spain pressed high. They knew they could leave Rice and Mainoo "unmarked", as they could cut off passing lanes. But we had 2 obvious out balls, as we had physical advantages on both wings. Long, early balls to Saka or Bellingham would see a high chance of us coming out on top against the diving midget or Carvajal (OK, the latter is more difficult, as he's probably the best RB in the world, but Bellingham is definitely better physically, taller, and stronger). And because Shaw was pushing up high, and Foden was there close, we could crowd around to win the second ball, leaving Spain's high press up the pitch and us having a man over against their defence.

But Pickford couldn't hit a cow's arse yesterday (not Southgate's fault), and we used that tactic far less times than we should have.

If we'd shown any change tactically, it would have led to Spain making a change. But we didn't, so they were free to set the tone. And that's England in a nutshell under Southgate: we're very reactive.

I don't think we've appointed a load of duds. I DO think we appointed a load of duds since Sven...Schteve, a disinterested Capello, Hodgson, and pint of wine...wonderful choices there...

One appointment I would both love and hate would be Thomas Frank. But luckily that's not going to happen.

Crikey, thanks for all that, some makes sense (to me, as demonstrated, no expert). But I felt our midfield seemd outclued- as you seem to say I reckon the big mistake was trying to play all of Manoo, Bellingham and Foden ...ie leaving Rice to do all the sweeping up. As they couldn't adapt, the selection was probably wrong, but I still think Bellingham and Foden in particular froze, needed too many touches and that was a big part of the problem....as Neville said, we couldn't keep the ball. Wrong players maybe. So I guess we agree, except I'd have expected Bellingham and Foden to be able to adapt. Whichever way you look at it, we were hammered in midfield- as I said, no good movement (rotation), poor touch; they seemed to be switching positions a lot in the middle to me, but pretty aimlessly.

Only lacking two players is quite an only, and that's only if I accept your word on the others- Walker to me looked exposed on the turn, bit of ball watching; and the skilled ball players seemed to need too much time (but then they'd like get more if the holding midfielder was there). I think we have a lot of very good players who effectively overlap in terms of playing style.

I still think we overrate our players tbh. Southgate has to be given a huge amount of credit for culture change and having comfortably the best record before or since Ramsey.