What next for 24/25?

[Scrumhead]

Two losses isn’t what I was hoping for, but given how rare wins in NZ are, two narrow defeats and creditable performances is probably a decent outcome.

Positive debuts for Baxter and Sleightholme and our defensive system showing signs of developing in to a real weapon are the main positives to take away, along with a couple of decent showings for Smith against good opposition. I feel a little mean saying so, but it’s also a positive if Spencer has played his way out of the squad.

IMO, the starting XV picks itself for now. I would pick 14 of the side from the first test with Genge in for Marler. I know Will Stuart gets a lot of heat, but until a genuinely better option comes along, I think he is the best we have.

The back ups is where it gets a little more difficult …

Hooker

George is doing a good job as captain and remains our best hooker. However, I don’t think Dan is ready to be his successor and is better used as an impact sub (a role which suits him well IMO). We need to find our next starting 2. Langdon is the obvious choice, but I also like Seb Blake. For, permitting, I’d like to see both in the squad for the AIs. I know Oghre went on tour, but honestly I don’t see him as a being a genuine contender.

LCD is still conceivably young enough to be a short-medium term solution, but I think his injury record and patchy form suggests his time may have passed.

Prop

Loosehead is in a decent spot. Baxter looks like he will establish himself as Genge’s deputy. I thought he had an excellent tour and should be extremely proud of how he made the step-up to test rugby. Perhaps it’s also the cue for Marler to retire from test duty. With Rodd, Iyogun and Brantingham, we have a good stable of young looseheads coming through.

Tighthead remains an issue. As I mentioned above Stuart is no more than OK, but there just isn’t anyone obviously challenging for his spot. Heyes and Davison are no better and AOF is too young and not helped by the apparent confusion over which side he’s supposed to be playing. I have high hopes for Harper at Sale, but I think he would need a strong start to the season as first choice to be a proper contender. If Gloucester and Bath can give Fasogbon and Sela a similar ramp-up to he first team to Baxter, we could be in a much better spot later in the RWC cycle.

I’m pleased Cole got the caps record, but I feel like we need to move on now. Unless he’s starting, I don’t think he should have a place in the 23 and given that we need to build experience in the younger props, I’d be more inclined to bite the bullet.

Lock

Itoje and Martin pick themselves with Chessum as the back up. Coles (only as a lock) and Isiekwe are decent back ups. From a short term POV, that group doesn’t really need tinkering with and even from a medium term perspective, the only real reason to look beyond them is if others like Tuima or Tizard are making a stronger case for inclusion.

Flanker

Underhill should be one of the first names on the team sheet. We almost always look better with him on the pitch. CCS is raw, but his impact as a carrier and destructive tackler make him a great asset and he has the athleticism to keep developing as a lineout forward. There’s room for improvement in the back row unit, but these two should be retained as our first choice flankers IMO.

I know there are calls for Earl to play at 7 but as covered in the match thread, I just don’t think that’s the right move. Leave him at 8 where he’s been mostly very good.

Tom Curry simple shouldn’t have gone on tour. At his best, he’d absolutely be challenging for a starting spot (probably moving CCS to the bench) but he’s understandably nowhere near that right now. Hopefully he’ll be fit and firing come the AIs.

His brother heads up a list of good 7s, but realistically, I don’t see any of these truly shaking up the pecking order any time soon. Pepper looks the best longer term bet. I’m not totally convinced by the hype around Pollock.

6 is a bit more open. Ted Hill finished the season strongly and playing in tandem with Underhill helps his case, but the fact the successive coaches haven’t really fancied him at test level gives me cause for pause. He’s still more than young enough to put any doubts to bed though. I really like the look of Carnduff and whether he gets in to the mix for 24/25 or later really just depends on game time at Tigers.

Number 8

Earl had a poor tour. His decision making and basics weren’t at the level we’ve seen previously. However, he had set himself a high bar and I’d prefer to persevere with the back row we’ve seen over the past few games as I believe it’s our best, most balanced trio right now.

You all know by now I’m a big fan of Dombrandt. I’d really like to see him paired with CCS and Underhill, just to see if my theory that he’s been set up to fail in his England career so far actually holds water. I definitely see him as a better starter than replacement though so for me he’s in the starting XV or not in the 23.

Mercer … same kind of goes for Dombrandt really. With the right pairing on the flanks, he could be an asset. I think he’d probably be a bit more impactful off the bench though and I wouldn’t be averse to seeing him in the 20 shirt.

Barbeary will surely got a chance at some point and if he, Underhill and Hill are working well as a unit at Bath, I’d potentially transplant them all in for a game or two with Earl or CCS on the bench.

Tom Willis is very good and with Billy leaving Saracens he has the perfect chance to press his claim.

CCS could also be an option, but if he’s doing well at 6 and playing there for Quins, I see more of an upside in keeping him at 6.

In summary, lots of options, but Earl remains the best bet IMO.

[Scrumhead]

Scrum Half

Mitchell had a good tour and has now firmly established himself as first choice. Conversely, I hope Spencer’s abject showing (combined with age) has put him out of contention.

I was very surprised JvP was left out and he is the obvious choice to come back in to the squad (probably as 2nd choice).

I thought Randall was good against Japan and I was disappointed he didn’t get a run out yesterday. As a high tempo, sniping 9, I think he offers something a bit different and deserves to be in the mix with JvP.

Quirke is a funny one. A few years ago he looked like he was a potential answer to our scrum half conundrum, but injury and losing his place to Warr are major set backs. He has talent but he needs to stay fit and dislodge Warr to become a true contender IMO.

From a medium term POV, McParland looks like he has potential but too early to say.

Fly Half

Aside from his kicking in Dunedin, I thought Smith was mostly good, at times very good. I think we need to keep faith with him and give him a good run in the driving seat. Moving him to 15 in looser games is also a nice card to be able to play.

Fin Smith underwhelmed with the not insignificant caveat that he had the misfortune of being outside Spencer in the first test. He is a talent though and I think we need to continue investing in his development and giving him some starts next season.

Ford remains an excellent option to call upon. As a senior figure in the squad and as a mentor for the Smiths, he’s a huge asset IMO as well as still being an extremely good option on the park.

Beyond that, it gets a little sketchy … Atkinson needs to re-establish himself at Gloucester and it remains to be seen whether Anscombe’s arrival is going to help him or hinder him. I’m semi curious to see if Malins plays 10 for Bristol, but I’m not convinced he has the temperament to be a test fly half.

I’m definitely not an advocate of poaching, but if Fergus Burke goes well at Saracens, he could well spark an interesting race for his services. Preferably, Louie Johnson wins that battle and develops as a possible long term 10 option.

Centre

Ummm … the current pairing isn’t quite right but it really is the best we have.

Atkinson, Ojomoh, Kelly, same old names bandied about but no-one really laying down a marker. Shame Hartley did his ACL as he looked the most likely. Hopefully he recovers well and makes good on his potential.

Dingwall deserves to be in the squad, but I only see him starting if others are unavailable which isn’t the greatest endorsement.

Freeman could well be the best option at 13, particularly given we have a slew of good wingers.

Will Joseph should come back in to the mix now he's fit and if Northmore is going to play 12 for Quins post-Andre, he might well be an option. He's a very smart rugby player and underrated IMO - I think he has more of a point of difference than Dingwall, but that could be club bias.

Wing

The current pairing did very well on tour and there really is no real reason to change either at this stage, with the possible exception of moving a Freeman to 13. Sleightholme and Roebuck making really positive cameos was a big positive from the tour and both should get more opportunities in 24/25.

I still think Murley could come back in to the mix. His injury was really poorly timed to coincide with Sleightholme’s stellar season. He’ll certainly be there or thereabouts.

OHC is still on the periphery, but is now probably 6th choice. Ibitoye and a couple of other options are there if needed but given the age profile of our top 5 wingers, they’re probably unlikely to get a look in.

At this point, I think we can forget about any comebacks from Anthony Watson.

Fullback

Furbank has established himself as an important player. Easily first choice now. Having 3 good 10s with Smith having the capability to slot in at 15 also means that a second playmaker should be our go-to option now. Maybe that opens the door for the likes of Malins and de Glanville but both very much in the ‘back up’ category.

I feel a bit sorry for Steward, but unless he can improve his playmaking skills and defence, he might find himself on the outside looking in.

Carpenter looks like a good option who I’d be tempted to give a run at some stage.

Hodge could also be very interesting, but he needs to learn to be a better team player to be a genuine option IMO.

I know Tyrone Green is soon to be eligible, but aside from the fact that I don’t like poaching players, I just don’t think his game is suited to test rugby. He’s a brilliant broken field runner and dogged defender, but I think he’s too tactically naive and lacks the kicking game to be successful.

[TheNomad]

Good posts. I agree with a lot of that actually.

One player id add to the mix in the back row is Fisilau - I think he’s got real potential.

Will be interesting to see, at some point in the future, whether there’s an effort to reintegrate Arundell and J Willis. The latter would get in the side for sure. Arundell would be a good back three back up

[Scrumhead]

Definitely. Potentially Sinckler too if he can rediscover his form in France (personally I’m sceptical).

Marchant and Willis walk back in to the squad and possibly the starting XV.

Arundell is a strange one. I kind of forgot about him and TBH, I’m not totally certain he’d make my 23. If he did, it would be as an impact sub. The success of IFW and Freeman and the form of Sleightholme and Roebuck as means our wing berths are in nice shape. 15 is definitely less well stocked behind Furbank but I’d have similar reservations about Arundell than I do about Green. Basically, he’s a broken field runner not a playmaker.

Good shout on Fisilau. He’d actually be a nice option in the 20 shirt covering the whole back row. A little like Ludlam did. Although, in a similar way to Ludlam, I don’t think he has the point of difference to really challenge the starters.

[Oakboy]

All good stuff. I think SB needs to work on his bench make-up and it's strategic use. All the tour did in that direction was point to squad selection errors.

Chessum solves one issue, of course, as a far better back-up lock. Is he a good enough 4/5/6 option to give SB the nudge to look for a 7/8 bench option to keep the balance right? Having the capacity to leave back-rowers in their starting position and make one-for-one changes may be the difference in maintaining/increasing momentum rather than diminishing it as happened in the two NZ defeats.

A similar functionality situation applies to back three cover. SH, FH plus a genuine pacey wing/FB remains a decent option and it may be a way to build Freeman into the 13 shirt as well as avoid Marcus to FB moves. Juggling positions in the back line are OK by pre-match design but early injuries are best covered by one-for-one slot-ins.

Of course, much depends on centre development. I agree that Lawrence/Slade is the best we can do for now. It's easy to blame them for everything but they are/were integral to the introduction of a new defensive system. Credit to them for its effectiveness against NZ could be jacked up a bit if realism is in the mix. A new attack coach could be needed to get more out of them with the ball in hand. Do all our current attacking thoughts still involve kicking of one sort or another?

[FKAS]

All good stuff. I think SB needs to work on his bench make-up and it's strategic use. All the tour did in that direction was point to squad selection errors.

I don't think Borthwick made many mistakes in selections. The players he took are largely the ones we would have selected. The bench options didn't make the impact we wanted but that was probably as much an annoyance to Borthwick as it was to us.

I mean look at the bench:

Dan - pretty much everyone's pick as impact sub. Disappointing in the first test and managed about a minute before injury in the second.
Baxter - one of the finds of the tour. Rodd - good in the loose cack at scrum time as we expected.
Cole - solid but nothing more, exactly as expected.
Coles - despite Banquo's constant whining 26% of his starts so far in his career have been at 6. Logical replacement for the injured Chessum but he made no impact.
T Curry - made his return for Sale and made a big impact. On form and fully fit he's one of the best flankers in the NH so worth a gamble but it failed. You'd expect him to be a force by the AIs again and he'll at least know the new routines in attack and defence.
Spencer/Randall - both have flaws we knew before the tour, probably the one selection mistake by Salty Bathwater.
F Smith - as expected.
Sleightholme - big impact in the second test.

Changes for the AIs are likely to be the return of Genge, Chessum and JvP which helps a lot in terms of carrying and impact as it'll strengthen the broader squad and bench.

The question at 8 is a significant one as the industrious Earl struggled for impact. Dombrant wasn't fancied. There's a list of younger options with Fisilau, Barbeary and the heavily sponsored TWillis.

At fullback the Air Steward looked sluggish and short on match fitness which probably isn't surprising as he hadn't played since mid May. Bad time for a mediocre display though. There's some options around but unlike at 8 they aren't showing quite the form. Malins isn't an option for me but Carpenter could be. Hodge looks to fragile and de Granville will need to stay fit for an extended period.

Tighthead we're a bit stuck with Cole unless Heyes or Harper start the season very well. I suspect Silly Balloon will partner Cole with Genge again and Baxter with Stuart as Baxter takes the place of Marler in the set piece prop with mobile prop pairing. We need someone to really kick on here.

Blindside is maybe a problem. Chessum probably fixes this by retaking the 19 shirt. CCS seems a likely starter but isn't backed to do the full 80. Roots wasn't fancied, possibly not versatile enough. Ted Hill and Carnduff are possibles depending on form and playing time.

Scrum half should solve itself with the return of JvP. Hopefully Quirke actually stays fit and refinds his best form.

Finding some more suitable centres would also help. Dingwall has looked uncomfortable at 13 previously but it's probably where he needs to find his position if he wants a crack at starting for England as he has the skillset to replace Slade but isn't physical enough to do the Lawrence role at 12. Consistent form from some of the other options would be a big help (Atkinson, Kelly, Ojomoh, Northmore, Beard, Joseph - come on lads just one of you stay fit and kick on).

[FKAS]

Definitely. Potentially Sinckler too if he can rediscover his form in France (personally I’m sceptical).

Marchant and Willis walk back in to the squad and possibly the starting XV.

Arundell is a strange one.

Sinckler is abroad for the next 3 years. We're not ripping up the selection criteria for him.

Marchant and Willis both know they need to be back in the Prem. Marchant probably would still be in the Prem had Slippy Bath joint England earlier. Willis shows no interest in returning. Marchant would go straight in at 13, not sure Willis does though he'd be in the reckoning for 7. Underhill has been very good for us and neither work as a 6 for us currently.

Arundell doesn't seem to be making waves over in Paris. Possibly because he's electric in attack but doesn't seem fond of doing the dog work and getting his hands dirty. If you're going to play international rugby you need to make peace with chasing kicks and defending hard being substantial parts of your role.

[Banquo]

All good stuff. I think SB needs to work on his bench make-up and it's strategic use. All the tour did in that direction was point to squad selection errors.

Coles - despite Banquo's constant whining 26% of his starts so far in his career have been at 6. Logical replacement for the injured Chessum but he made no impact.

As a wind up merchant, you are pretty dreary. Though an admirable job as Borthwick's defence attorney.

[Puja]

Arundell doesn't seem to be making waves over in Paris. Possibly because he's electric in attack but doesn't seem fond of doing the dog work and getting his hands dirty. If you're going to play international rugby you need to make peace with chasing kicks and defending hard being substantial parts of your role.

Seems very harsh - he's still very young and inexperienced and I think too much pressure was put on him too early. He's started 80% of his games for Racing, scoring 10 tries in 19 games - that's not a disaster (especially given how average Racing were last season) and I expect him to learn and kick on more next season.

I am encouraged by the fact that JWillis, Arundell, and Marchant all have contracts ending in 2026 - clearly they've got an eye on returning to English clubs for the RWC and hopefully England will continue building and will be a significant draw by that point.


On the main subject of the post, I agree that centres are our problem, but 13 solves itself to some respect. If we can find a 12 of any level of competency, we can move Lawrence out to his actual position of 13 and lose a lot of the problems that come from trying to shoe-horn him in as a crash-ball 12. I don't know who that would be though - the traditional bandied names of Kelly, SAtkinson, Ojomoh are all very average players and they'd need a massive step-up in quality before I'd be excited about them. Hartley's badly injured and I don't know when he'll be back or what impact it's had on his development. Wimbush or Ma'asi-White? They've certainly got the build, but feels very hopeful to be pinning ambitions on either of them.

I may have taken too many knocks to the head in my playing career, but I'm quietly wondering whether p/d might not be onto something about retraining Steward as a 12. He doesn't fit into the way this England team are going at 15 and I'm not sure I see what he can do to change that - he's just not fast enough nor a good enough defender to deal with being the lone decision-maker that the rush-defence requires, but it's a hell of a waste of resources to completely discard him. Would need Leicester to completely buy into it though and he'd probably need a whole season at club level before he'd be worth using at international, so I don't know that I see it happening.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Well Mike Brown has agreed a 1yr extension

I don’t totally hate the idea, but it would take a lot of time and effort at club level without any guarantee that he could cut it as a test level centre so I doubt it will actually happen.

Definitely. Potentially Sinckler too if he can rediscover his form in France (personally I’m sceptical).

Marchant and Willis walk back in to the squad and possibly the starting XV.

Arundell is a strange one.

Sinckler is abroad for the next 3 years. We're not ripping up the selection criteria for him.

I didn’t even remotely suggest we should? I was responding to @TheNomad’s post about possible returnees ‘at some point in the future’.

[Scrumhead]

TBH, I would have a bit of an issue with players returning from overseas a year out from the World Cup with the assumption that they have a divine right to make the squad. We already saw that with Mercer and I wouldn’t like to see it become a pattern. I don’t like the idea of Premiership players putting in the hard yards for 3yrs only for someone absent by choice to come in and take their place 75% of the way through the cycle. It needs to be abundantly clear that they need to earn their way back into the squad.

[Banquo]

TBH, I would have a bit of an issue with players returning from overseas a year out from the World Cup with the assumption that they have a divine right to make the squad. We already saw that with Mercer and I wouldn’t like to see it become a pattern. I don’t like the idea of Premiership players putting in the hard yards for 3yrs only for someone absent by choice to come in and take their place 75% of the way through the cycle. It needs to be abundantly clear that they need to earn their way back into the squad.

Tricky one, esp with the cull that’s about to happen in the prem. The money being offered abroad must be hard to turn down in what can be a precarious career. No easy answer here.

[Scrumhead]

TBH, I would have a bit of an issue with players returning from overseas a year out from the World Cup with the assumption that they have a divine right to make the squad. We already saw that with Mercer and I wouldn’t like to see it become a pattern. I don’t like the idea of Premiership players putting in the hard yards for 3yrs only for someone absent by choice to come in and take their place 75% of the way through the cycle. It needs to be abundantly clear that they need to earn their way back into the squad.

Tricky one, esp with the cull that’s about to happen in the prem. The money being offered abroad must be hard to turn down in what can be a precarious career. No easy answer here.

It is. However, I think it comes down to communication. As long as the players know that they need to work their way back in, it’s fine.

[Puja]

TBH, I would have a bit of an issue with players returning from overseas a year out from the World Cup with the assumption that they have a divine right to make the squad. We already saw that with Mercer and I wouldn’t like to see it become a pattern. I don’t like the idea of Premiership players putting in the hard yards for 3yrs only for someone absent by choice to come in and take their place 75% of the way through the cycle. It needs to be abundantly clear that they need to earn their way back into the squad.

I think anyone that comes in with the assumption of a divine right probably won't end up playing well enough to get in (although would probably get a Burgess/SArmitage/SSimmonds/Cipriani style puff from the press). Can't imagine that'd be the case of Marchant or JWillis and I'd be surprised if it was Arundell.

Puja

[FKAS]

Definitely. Potentially Sinckler too if he can rediscover his form in France (personally I’m sceptical).

Marchant and Willis walk back in to the squad and possibly the starting XV.

Arundell is a strange one.

Sinckler is abroad for the next 3 years. We're not ripping up the selection criteria for him.

I didn’t even remotely suggest we should? I was responding to @TheNomad’s post about possible returnees ‘at some point in the future’.

Apologies, I'm conditioned what with the rugby media insisting we need to end the ban on overseas players.

[Puja]

Sinckler is abroad for the next 3 years. We're not ripping up the selection criteria for him.

I didn’t even remotely suggest we should? I was responding to @TheNomad’s post about possible returnees ‘at some point in the future’.

Apologies, I'm conditioned what with the rugby media insisting we need to end the ban on overseas players.

Apologising when you're wrong? On the internet? Outrageous.

Puja

[FKAS]

I didn’t even remotely suggest we should? I was responding to @TheNomad’s post about possible returnees ‘at some point in the future’.

Apologies, I'm conditioned what with the rugby media insisting we need to end the ban on overseas players.

Apologising when you're wrong? On the internet? Outrageous.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

TBH, I would have a bit of an issue with players returning from overseas a year out from the World Cup with the assumption that they have a divine right to make the squad. We already saw that with Mercer and I wouldn’t like to see it become a pattern. I don’t like the idea of Premiership players putting in the hard yards for 3yrs only for someone absent by choice to come in and take their place 75% of the way through the cycle. It needs to be abundantly clear that they need to earn their way back into the squad.

I think anyone that comes in with the assumption of a divine right probably won't end up playing well enough to get in (although would probably get a Burgess/SArmitage/SSimmonds/Cipriani style puff from the press). Can't imagine that'd be the case of Marchant or JWillis and I'd be surprised if it was Arundell.

Puja

Well the most recent example is Mercer and that’s pretty much exactly how it went down … if I’m being kind to Mercer, perhaps Eddie made promises that Borthwick didn’t feel the need to keep but from what we know, the messaging seemed to be way off.

Willis and Marchant seem to be different (less egotistical) characters, but rightly or wrongly, I do feel like Arundell has shown some signs of misplaced entitlement. Perhaps that’s unfair?

[Puja]

Well the most recent example is Mercer and that’s pretty much exactly how it went down … if I’m being kind to Mercer, perhaps Eddie made promises that Borthwick didn’t feel the need to keep but from what we know, the messaging seemed to be way off.

Willis and Marchant seem to be different (less egotistical) characters, but rightly or wrongly, I do feel like Arundell has shown some signs of misplaced entitlement. Perhaps that’s unfair?

I think it's very hard to judge from public pronouncements, especially when you read two newspapers' different takes on the same interview. The headline can be wildly misleading, quotes chopped up and moved around and placed around text that appears to imply they're saying something that they explicitly did not.

I'm not saying Mercer didn't come back expecting to be entitled to a space in the England squad, but I am saying that's an interpretation that generates controversy and gets people to buy papers and click on articles. Same with Arundell, who they have built up as the Boy Wonder, and will hurl down just as readily.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I think the biggest downside to the Mercer saga is his creation of the precedent 'good in France does not mean much'. Maybe, Tom Willis picked up injury at the wrong time so judging him by the same parameters is unfair.

However, does an English individual gain or lose by playing the French way? Could it be that far from three years in France followed by a year in our club set-up working as an international ticket, players need to think of two seasons minimum back in English rugby to readjust?

We need more evidence of course and we need to consider a player's overall rugby intelligence. Some might adjust better than others.

[francoisfou]

The Top14 is unquestionably (in my opinion) of a higher standard than the Premiership, so if a player like Mercer excelled in this tough competition then one would rightly assume that he has what it takes to shine in the Premiership. Did Eddie dangle a juicy carrot in front of Mercer’s nose? We may never know. Was going to Gloucester the right choice? Would he have fared better elsewhere. Again, we don’t know. I watched some of his games with Montpellier and he was exceptionally good but I haven’t seen him play in any games for Gloucester. Is he still in Stevie Blunder’s plans? Sadly, it would appear not and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he went back to the Top14. A shame as I believe that he could have been England’s regular 8.

[fivepointer]

Personnel wise THP and inside centre are the areas that we are obviously struggling in.

Borthwick has to make a call about Heyes. If he thinks hes up to it give him some game time. If not, its time to move on to someone else. Who could that someone else be? Frankly no one is shouting pick me right now. Harper has his moments but hasnt stringed together enough top level performances. Iosefa-Scott is a possibility. He was going pretty well until injury ended his season. AOF is definitely not an international THP so options are few. Its very early for Fasogbon or Sela. Balmain and Davidson are too old. Painter isnt mobile enough. Pity we didnt do enough to get Collier in the side. Our best scrummager repeatedly ignored by coaches and now off to France.

At centre I'd retain Dingwall and bring in Seb Atkinson. Of those on the fringe he looks to have the most developed game. Time to take a punt.

[Scrumhead]

Here’s the depth chart/pecking order as I’d like to see it:

1. Genge / Marler* / Baxter / Rodd / Obano
2. George / Langdon / Dan / Blake / Oghre
3. Cole* / Stuart / Heyes / Harper / Davison
4. Itoje / Chessum / Coles
5. Martin / Isiekwe / Tuima
6. Cunningham-South / Hill / Roots
7. Underhill / T. Curry / B. Curry / (J. Willis)
8. Earl / Dombrandt / Mercer / Barbeary / T. Willis
9. Mitchell / van Poortvliet / Randall / Quirke
10. M. Smith / Ford / F. Smith
11. Freeman / Sleightholme / Murley
12. Lawrence / Dingwall / Hartley / Atkinson / Kelly
13. Slade / Northmore / Joseph / (Marchant)
14. Feyi-Waboso / Roebuck
15. Furbank / Carpenter / Steward / Malins

*Subject to potential international retirement

The encouraging thing is that everyone there with the exception of Blake, Harper and Joseph have already been in Borthwick’s squads.

There are also quite a few I left out who are conceivably 5th/6th choice like Iyogun.

One player I am curious to look out for this season is Jack Kenningham. He’s sort of been forgotten but is very good player. He’s apparently bulked-up and if he can keep his insane work rate, tackle count and lineout work, he’s an interesting player. I think he’s better than Roots. They have a different style but would perform a similar role. His obstacle is having CCS and Evans to compete with.

[Oakboy]

I'd have Fisilau near the top of the 8 rankings and I'd leave Dombrandt and Mercer out.

[Scrumhead]

Why so high?

I like Fisilau but as I said in a post yesterday, I see him as the new Lewis Ludlam - a very solid all rounder, but no point of difference to pick him ahead of others. Could be a handy sub covering the whole back row, but for now, no more than that.

I’m not even sure he’s an 8. He’s not an ‘Exeter 8’ to the extent Simmonds was but they still set their back row up differently to everyone else with the 6, 7 and 8 roles all jumbled up.