What next for 24/25?

[Banquo]

Post Scotland, where he was quite poor after returning from injury, Lawrence has been solid-good in each of his last 5 tests. Bit rusty against Japan. Definitely some work-ons, but he plays like an effective modern day hard running/3rd flanker type 12. Certainly listening to the Kiwi pundits & analysis they were impressed with him.

I’m surprised. His skill levels aren’t what a kiwi would accept generally. That role would seem the natural one for him at 12, and one that would suit this England ( and frankly many teams) but he looks pretty uncomfortable there to me.

He's not a 12. He's got the frame to do a crash ball into traffic, but he hasn't got the ball retention skills or tight carrying style to make it work consistently. The best use we've got out of him there has been from pretending he's going on the crash and passing the ball behind him, aided by NZ failing to do their homework and believing every time that he was going to get the ball because he looked big and scary.

To my mind, he's actually a better winger than he is a 12 - his best skills are based around using his pace to attack gaps and power through arm tackles.

Puja

Never seen him on the wing in senior rugby tbh.

[Puja]

I’m surprised. His skill levels aren’t what a kiwi would accept generally. That role would seem the natural one for him at 12, and one that would suit this England ( and frankly many teams) but he looks pretty uncomfortable there to me.

He's not a 12. He's got the frame to do a crash ball into traffic, but he hasn't got the ball retention skills or tight carrying style to make it work consistently. The best use we've got out of him there has been from pretending he's going on the crash and passing the ball behind him, aided by NZ failing to do their homework and believing every time that he was going to get the ball because he looked big and scary.

To my mind, he's actually a better winger than he is a 12 - his best skills are based around using his pace to attack gaps and power through arm tackles.

Puja

Never seen him on the wing in senior rugby tbh.

Sorry, poorly worded - not really suggesting him as a winger, more that his skills and style of play are better suited to that than 12.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Wasn't his first cap on the wing?
Or possibly a 3rd minute reshuffle.

Not that I'd want him there, but I see what Puja means

[Oakboy]

Lawrence is decent. He’s not helped by having to play a different role for England to the one he plays with Bath.

He is better at 13. However, that’s mostly from an attacking POV and also playing in an entirely different set up. Given how key the 13 role is in England’s defensive system, I think moving him would be setting him up to fail. He’s less exposed at 12 so that’s where I’d prefer to leave him. Even more so if he’s playing with an inexperienced partner in midfield.

Agreed. Lawrence is an example of what I was spouting about on the other thread. He's good - decent to use your word. But, he's not outstanding (yet?). If a better prospect comes on the scene it would be tough for him in some ways but there is no doubt that two top standard centres would transform the team. For now, SB must see him as a work in progress. There's more to come but he could well be overtaken.

Kin ell, been crying out for a top centre pairing for decades. Even a couple of complimentary players with rounded skill sets would be nice.

What do you think of Freeman at 13 in the current defence system?

[Banquo]

Agreed. Lawrence is an example of what I was spouting about on the other thread. He's good - decent to use your word. But, he's not outstanding (yet?). If a better prospect comes on the scene it would be tough for him in some ways but there is no doubt that two top standard centres would transform the team. For now, SB must see him as a work in progress. There's more to come but he could well be overtaken.

Kin ell, been crying out for a top centre pairing for decades. Even a couple of complimentary players with rounded skill sets would be nice.

What do you think of Freeman at 13 in the current defence system?

Good question- you need to be pretty agile and clear /quick thinking alongside the familiarity of reading plays. He definitely needs to play a lot more at club level there, ideally in a similar system. My uninformed - as in not seen him defend in that system- would be that he’s quite a big lad and maybe would get his feet planted til he got used to the job.

[FKAS]

I think Lawrence has looked ok at 12 so far. Defensively he's made his hits and in attack he can exploit a well timed pop to burst through half a gap. He's not in the Aki etc style of 12 that'll just bash a gap if there isn't one but whilst we've got good passing flyhalfs that shouldn't be so much of an issue.

Freeman is pretty nimble on his feet for a big lad. Anticipating when to race out of the line and when to stay connected will be the big ask. For Slade's errors in games he's not made many errors in regard to that. If you get it wrong it's pretty obvious.

[Banquo]

I think Lawrence has looked ok at 12 so far. Defensively he's made his hits and in attack he can exploit a well timed pop to burst through half a gap. He's not in the Aki etc style of 12 that'll just bash a gap if there isn't one but whilst we've got good passing flyhalfs that shouldn't be so much of an issue.

Freeman is pretty nimble on his feet for a big lad. Anticipating when to race out of the line and when to stay connected will be the big ask. For Slade's errors in games he's not made many errors in regard to that. If you get it wrong it's pretty obvious.

His hands have looked poor imo.


Nimble ‘for a big lad’ is the key bit.

[FKAS]

I think Lawrence has looked ok at 12 so far. Defensively he's made his hits and in attack he can exploit a well timed pop to burst through half a gap. He's not in the Aki etc style of 12 that'll just bash a gap if there isn't one but whilst we've got good passing flyhalfs that shouldn't be so much of an issue.

Freeman is pretty nimble on his feet for a big lad. Anticipating when to race out of the line and when to stay connected will be the big ask. For Slade's errors in games he's not made many errors in regard to that. If you get it wrong it's pretty obvious.

His hands have looked poor imo.


Nimble ‘for a big lad’ is the key bit.

Re Freeman I think Austin talked about it in a game where he played 13 for Saints that his recovery and ability to cover across when our it position was excellent. Obviously be harder at international level.

Yeah agree re Lawrence. If he could hold onto the ball better he'd be twice the threat he currently is.

[LongForgotten]

Walters is leaving for Ireland! Bollocks.

[Danno]

Just saw that. What are we playing at??

[Timbo]

S&C must be pretty generic across the top rugby nations. Can’t be that hard to find a good replacement. The Springboks hired the Sarries S&C guy to replace Walters & they’ve carried on just fine.

[Mellsblue]

Who is the Walters chap? Why has he never been mentioned on this board before? etc etc

[FKAS]

Walters is leaving for Ireland! Bollocks.

Ah bollocks. That's a loss, he's supposed to be a big figure off the field as well as being very good at his job. How the hell have we let the Irish poach him?!?

[FKAS]

Apparently his partner is Irish and that's partly behind wanting to relocate.

[Timbo]

Apparently his partner is Irish and that's partly behind wanting to relocate.

I think it’s also the extra 2 weeks holiday he’ll now get every World Cup year.

[Puja]

Apparently his partner is Irish and that's partly behind wanting to relocate.

I think it’s also the extra 2 weeks holiday he’ll now get every World Cup year.

That got a chuckle - very nice indeed.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Walters is leaving for Ireland! Bollocks.

. . . he's supposed to be a big figure off the field . . . .

I read something similar but being a cynic it came across (from player quotes) as a bit too cosy. Maybe, I'm old-fashioned (scrub the 'maybe'), but aren't fitness coaches supposed to be whip-crackers? There is certainly room for improvement in stamina over 80 minutes for quite a few players.

[Banquo]

Apparently his partner is Irish and that's partly behind wanting to relocate.

I think it’s also the extra 2 weeks holiday he’ll now get every World Cup year.

[FKAS]

Walters is leaving for Ireland! Bollocks.

. . . he's supposed to be a big figure off the field . . . .

I read something similar but being a cynic it came across (from player quotes) as a bit too cosy. Maybe, I'm old-fashioned (scrub the 'maybe'), but aren't fitness coaches supposed to be whip-crackers? There is certainly room for improvement in stamina over 80 minutes for quite a few players.

I dunno we don't really fade in matches.

I remember Freddie Burns telling stories of his time at Tigers and talking about Walters as being a bit of an eccentric. Turned up to his first day at Tigers wearing his world cup winners medal as he knew he could use it to wind up Borthwick and some of the England players. Used to heckle the briefings if he thought they were going on to long. That and he'd flog the players who'd take it because they'd be laughing with him in between the hurting.

[Danno]

. . . he's supposed to be a big figure off the field . . . .

I read something similar but being a cynic it came across (from player quotes) as a bit too cosy. Maybe, I'm old-fashioned (scrub the 'maybe'), but aren't fitness coaches supposed to be whip-crackers? There is certainly room for improvement in stamina over 80 minutes for quite a few players.

I dunno we don't really fade in matches.

That's certainly a take. Can't really bring to mind a match where we finished stronger at the end than the start in a couple years. And the general trend is probably more like 7-8 years. A lot of that is down to personnel so I'm not having a go, but it just doesn't ring true for me. Our bench has been wank for ages now.

[FKAS]

I read something similar but being a cynic it came across (from player quotes) as a bit too cosy. Maybe, I'm old-fashioned (scrub the 'maybe'), but aren't fitness coaches supposed to be whip-crackers? There is certainly room for improvement in stamina over 80 minutes for quite a few players.

I dunno we don't really fade in matches.

That's certainly a take. Can't really bring to mind a match where we finished stronger at the end than the start in a couple years. And the general trend is probably more like 7-8 years. A lot of that is down to personnel so I'm not having a go, but it just doesn't ring true for me. Our bench has been wank for ages now.

Ireland in the 6N?

The bench options have been a limiting factor.

Give the aggressive nature of our blitz defence we're going to need a good head of S&C to allow the players to keep flying out the line again and again.

[Scrumhead]

I read something similar but being a cynic it came across (from player quotes) as a bit too cosy. Maybe, I'm old-fashioned (scrub the 'maybe'), but aren't fitness coaches supposed to be whip-crackers? There is certainly room for improvement in stamina over 80 minutes for quite a few players.

I dunno we don't really fade in matches.

That's certainly a take. Can't really bring to mind a match where we finished stronger at the end than the start in a couple years. And the general trend is probably more like 7-8 years. A lot of that is down to personnel so I'm not having a go, but it just doesn't ring true for me. Our bench has been wank for ages now.

Our bench has been poor but as you said yourself, ‘a lot of that is down to personnel’ and not really to do with fitness. We’re not fading because we’ve run out of gas, we’re fading because the replacements (in most positions) are a step down on the starters and/or are failing to make any impact.

I do agree with @FKAS though - the style of our defence means we need a very fit team.

[Danno]

Very true, which makes Aled's move to Ireland rather frustrating

[Banquo]

Very true, which makes Aled's move to Ireland rather frustrating

who knows, he may not now be the best. Times move on.

[Mellsblue]

. . . he's supposed to be a big figure off the field . . . .

I read something similar but being a cynic it came across (from player quotes) as a bit too cosy. Maybe, I'm old-fashioned (scrub the 'maybe'), but aren't fitness coaches supposed to be whip-crackers? There is certainly room for improvement in stamina over 80 minutes for quite a few players.

I dunno we don't really fade in matches.

I remember Freddie Burns telling stories of his time at Tigers and talking about Walters as being a bit of an eccentric. Turned up to his first day at Tigers wearing his world cup winners medal as he knew he could use it to wind up Borthwick and some of the England players. Used to heckle the briefings if he thought they were going on to long. That and he'd flog the players who'd take it because they'd be laughing with him in between the hurting.

I miss preseason.