What next for 24/25?

[Oakboy]

Very true, which makes Aled's move to Ireland rather frustrating

who knows, he may not now be the best. Times move on.

Exactly!

[FKAS]

I read something similar but being a cynic it came across (from player quotes) as a bit too cosy. Maybe, I'm old-fashioned (scrub the 'maybe'), but aren't fitness coaches supposed to be whip-crackers? There is certainly room for improvement in stamina over 80 minutes for quite a few players.

I dunno we don't really fade in matches.

I remember Freddie Burns telling stories of his time at Tigers and talking about Walters as being a bit of an eccentric. Turned up to his first day at Tigers wearing his world cup winners medal as he knew he could use it to wind up Borthwick and some of the England players. Used to heckle the briefings if he thought they were going on to long. That and he'd flog the players who'd take it because they'd be laughing with him in between the hurting.

I miss preseason.

I miss my knees being able to handle preseason.

[Oakboy]

How about withdrawing our players from the Lions? Will they really get anything out of joining the players from other countries to thump a poor Australia side? Team development must make more progress from a meaningful England tour.

[Mikey Brown]

Who would even make that call? Borthwick just decides that guys like Mitchell, Earl, IFW have to forego that experience for the sake of a couple more England games against Argentina? Ford, Slade, Underhill are outside bets but this is also their last opportunity to fight for a call up.

I know Aus are in a bad place but I wouldn't bet against them improving massively under Schmidt anyway.

[fivepointer]

Be perfectly content for England players to make themselves unavailable for the Lions but that isnt going to happen. The RFU isnt going to undermine the tour and the players will want to have the experience of taking part.

The jamboree will go ahead with representation from all 4 of the home unions.

[Which Tyler]

I always think that exposure to a variety of coaching opinions and methods is useful for players - whether that's having A-internationals, different coaching for the Premiership Cup, apprentices in national training squads, or whatever.
So let the players play for the lions.

On top of that, of course, is blocking players from fulfilling their dreams is terrible man-management just about every way you look at it.

[Scrumhead]

TBH, it feels like a bit of a pointless tour for the England players.

Firstly, I expect the Lions’ test side to be dominated by Ireland. As of right now, that’s fair enough considering that Farrell coaches them and they’re currently the best team contributing to the Lions. Any 50/50 calls will most probably go their way on the basis of familiarity and existing combinations. For example, I don’t think McCarthy is better than Itoje, but if he and Beirne are an established partnership, I can see Farrell sticking with that.

It might be the correct decision, but it significantly limits opportunities for everyone else. Today, I’m not totally confident an England player makes the starting XV. The most open positions are probably 6, 10 and 14, but even then I’m not sure Smith gets the nod over Russell or IFW over Hansen. CCS possibly has the best chance IMO.

I could easily 12-15 Irish players starting, with us making up the majority of the bench. How useful is that for us? Debatable I’d say.

Secondly, how competitive is the tour going to be? Right now, I don’t think anyone would give Australia a prayer of beating Ireland. In theory, the Lions will be the Ireland side with a couple of upgrades so …

Like @MikeyBrown, I do think Schmidt will significantly improve Australia, but I can’t see that he can achieve enough in the next year to make them good enough to compete with Ireland+ (AKA the Lions). At this point, anything other than 3-0 would be a disappointment for the Lions.

With all of that said, most of the England players likely to go are known quantities (CCS and IFW as the possible exceptions). Arguably 2025 is going to be about building more depth and giving more exposure to those with less experience: Genge touring = more opportunities for Baxter, Marcus Smith touring = starts for Fin Smith etc. While I don’t think the Lions tour itself benefits us a great deal, the openings it might create could be useful.

[Oakboy]

I think Lawes walks in at 6 if he wants to go.

[Scrumhead]

If it was today, I’d 100% agree but I don’t think a season playing D2 rugby and another years’ worth of miles on the clock is putting him in contention for the Lions.

Speaking of players in France …

It depends how they want to play, but if they look at two opensides, Willis could be in with a good shout.

[FKAS]

The Lions is a good opportunity, playing or not. Training against the best in B&I for the week with some of the best coaches those nations can provide. It's a good learning opportunity and good personal experience. I would have thought we'd have a fair number going even if Ireland make up the bulk of the 23. Injury and form will certainly play a part.

If anything the tour will be good for Borthwick. It'll give him chance to use the A team games over the season to test and bring on the next batch of players he wants to take to Argentina alongside whatever regulars remain. There's still question marks around squad depth in key areas and this is a great time to work on that.

[Banquo]

The Lions is a good opportunity, playing or not. Training against the best in B&I for the week with some of the best coaches those nations can provide. It's a good learning opportunity and good personal experience. I would have thought we'd have a fair number going even if Ireland make up the bulk of the 23. Injury and form will certainly play a part.

If anything the tour will be good for Borthwick. It'll give him chance to use the A team games over the season to test and bring on the next batch of players he wants to take to Argentina alongside whatever regulars remain. There's still question marks around squad depth in key areas and this is a great time to work on that.

Agreed, plus for me - and many fans, and likely players- an interesting 'diversion' from the grind with very different challenges and experiences.

[Mr Mwenda]

The Lions is a good opportunity, playing or not. Training against the best in B&I for the week with some of the best coaches those nations can provide. It's a good learning opportunity and good personal experience. I would have thought we'd have a fair number going even if Ireland make up the bulk of the 23. Injury and form will certainly play a part.

If anything the tour will be good for Borthwick. It'll give him chance to use the A team games over the season to test and bring on the next batch of players he wants to take to Argentina alongside whatever regulars remain. There's still question marks around squad depth in key areas and this is a great time to work on that.

Agreed, plus for me - and many fans, and likely players- an interesting 'diversion' from the grind with very different challenges and experiences.

This is my take. I also love the players that surprise everyone by flourishing unexpectedly in a new context. I also like the opportunity to be friends with and on the same side as the Celtic supporters. I get to enjoy their players and anything that works against the narrative that English people and Celts are expected to hate one another is a good thing and feels increasingly rare in these days of the UK unmaking itself.

[Puja]

The Lions is a good opportunity, playing or not. Training against the best in B&I for the week with some of the best coaches those nations can provide. It's a good learning opportunity and good personal experience. I would have thought we'd have a fair number going even if Ireland make up the bulk of the 23. Injury and form will certainly play a part.

If anything the tour will be good for Borthwick. It'll give him chance to use the A team games over the season to test and bring on the next batch of players he wants to take to Argentina alongside whatever regulars remain. There's still question marks around squad depth in key areas and this is a great time to work on that.

Agreed, plus for me - and many fans, and likely players- an interesting 'diversion' from the grind with very different challenges and experiences.

This is my take. I also love the players that surprise everyone by flourishing unexpectedly in a new context. I also like the opportunity to be friends with and on the same side as the Celtic supporters. I get to enjoy their players and anything that works against the narrative that English people and Celts are expected to hate one another is a good thing and feels increasingly rare in these days of the UK unmaking itself.

Exactly the same. I hope that Scrumhead is wrong - it'll be an awful tour if it's Ireland plus 2-3 guest stars, as that's not the point of the Lions, but I expect it won't be. Players will press for contention and earn their shots and there'll be at least one who comes out of nowhere and thrives - it's always the way.

I will also note that the Lions is a massive money-spinner as well, and the game isn't so well off that we can afford to sneer at any of those.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I hope I’m wrong too BTW, but at present, it would be hard to argue against 12/13 Ireland players starting. A year is a long time in rugby though and form and injuries will undoubtedly play their part.

[Oakboy]

Agreed, plus for me - and many fans, and likely players- an interesting 'diversion' from the grind with very different challenges and experiences.

This is my take. I also love the players that surprise everyone by flourishing unexpectedly in a new context. I also like the opportunity to be friends with and on the same side as the Celtic supporters. I get to enjoy their players and anything that works against the narrative that English people and Celts are expected to hate one another is a good thing and feels increasingly rare in these days of the UK unmaking itself.

Exactly the same. I hope that Scrumhead is wrong - it'll be an awful tour if it's Ireland plus 2-3 guest stars, as that's not the point of the Lions, but I expect it won't be. Players will press for contention and earn their shots and there'll be at least one who comes out of nowhere and thrives - it's always the way.

I will also note that the Lions is a massive money-spinner as well, and the game isn't so well off that we can afford to sneer at any of those.

Puja

Will the tour sell with the Australia team in its current state? I'm not a fan of the Lions concept in the professional game but I accept that thousands love it. The first financial hiccup could be troublesome perhaps?

[Puja]

This is my take. I also love the players that surprise everyone by flourishing unexpectedly in a new context. I also like the opportunity to be friends with and on the same side as the Celtic supporters. I get to enjoy their players and anything that works against the narrative that English people and Celts are expected to hate one another is a good thing and feels increasingly rare in these days of the UK unmaking itself.

Exactly the same. I hope that Scrumhead is wrong - it'll be an awful tour if it's Ireland plus 2-3 guest stars, as that's not the point of the Lions, but I expect it won't be. Players will press for contention and earn their shots and there'll be at least one who comes out of nowhere and thrives - it's always the way.

I will also note that the Lions is a massive money-spinner as well, and the game isn't so well off that we can afford to sneer at any of those.

Puja

Will the tour sell with the Australia team in its current state? I'm not a fan of the Lions concept in the professional game but I accept that thousands love it. The first financial hiccup could be troublesome perhaps?

Apparently tours are overbooked already - the Australian RFU have already planned where their share of the windfall is being spent. I would have been worried about the quality of the oppo affecting things too, but it appears the fans are quite looking forward to giving an old foe a dicking.

Puja

[Banquo]

This is my take. I also love the players that surprise everyone by flourishing unexpectedly in a new context. I also like the opportunity to be friends with and on the same side as the Celtic supporters. I get to enjoy their players and anything that works against the narrative that English people and Celts are expected to hate one another is a good thing and feels increasingly rare in these days of the UK unmaking itself.

Exactly the same. I hope that Scrumhead is wrong - it'll be an awful tour if it's Ireland plus 2-3 guest stars, as that's not the point of the Lions, but I expect it won't be. Players will press for contention and earn their shots and there'll be at least one who comes out of nowhere and thrives - it's always the way.

I will also note that the Lions is a massive money-spinner as well, and the game isn't so well off that we can afford to sneer at any of those.

Puja

Will the tour sell with the Australia team in its current state? I'm not a fan of the Lions concept in the professional game but I accept that thousands love it. The first financial hiccup could be troublesome perhaps?

Pretty much sold out already. Hundreds of thousands love it, it’s a fantastic and unique experience for fans. As before it’s a welcome break from the new norm.

[FKAS]

It's unsurprising it's sold out or nearly sold out. Australia is easy to travel to and around (despite its vast size), accomodation is plentiful and generally speaking the public transport works and is cost effective. If you've got the cash then it's a great trip.

[Oakboy]

Exactly the same. I hope that Scrumhead is wrong - it'll be an awful tour if it's Ireland plus 2-3 guest stars, as that's not the point of the Lions, but I expect it won't be. Players will press for contention and earn their shots and there'll be at least one who comes out of nowhere and thrives - it's always the way.

I will also note that the Lions is a massive money-spinner as well, and the game isn't so well off that we can afford to sneer at any of those.

Puja

Will the tour sell with the Australia team in its current state? I'm not a fan of the Lions concept in the professional game but I accept that thousands love it. The first financial hiccup could be troublesome perhaps?

Pretty much sold out already. Hundreds of thousands love it, it’s a fantastic and unique experience for fans. As before it’s a welcome break from the new norm.

Have you done the Aussie tour? A mate of mine did the last one and paid a lot for the best of everything. He had a great time but said he would not go again - mainly because the 'best' seats (i.e. level with the halfway line) put him a long way from the action. Some (most?) of the stadia are circular (based on multi-sport use??).

[Banquo]

Will the tour sell with the Australia team in its current state? I'm not a fan of the Lions concept in the professional game but I accept that thousands love it. The first financial hiccup could be troublesome perhaps?

Pretty much sold out already. Hundreds of thousands love it, it’s a fantastic and unique experience for fans. As before it’s a welcome break from the new norm.

Have you done the Aussie tour? A mate of mine did the last one and paid a lot for the best of everything. He had a great time but said he would not go again - mainly because the 'best' seats (i.e. level with the halfway line) put him a long way from the action. Some (most?) of the stadia are circular (based on multi-sport use??).

Yes, it was great in 2013.

[fivepointer]

BREAKING: Felix Jones has quit as England assistant according to the Times.

Jones was ‘unhappy with the unstable working environment’ in England camp and has quit with immediate effect, just weeks after Aled Walters’ departure…

That’s enormous. Lots of questions set to be asked about Borthwick’s coaching style behind the scenes.

One month out from the new season as well.


Thats not a good look.

[Danno]

What the fuck is going on in there?

[LongForgotten]

Obviously we don't know how important each individual coach is but seems pretty bad that two highly regarded coaches have quit. Wonder if it's Borthwick or RFU they have issues with. If Borthwick he's costing the RFU a lot in contract buy outs and pay offs!

[Puja]

Telegraph says:

A source close to Jones also suggested that he was unhappy with his brief as defence coach. When the Rugby Football Union announced in March 2023 that Jones would be joining Borthwick’s team following the World Cup, it was believed that he would be given responsibility to run the attack. However, when it was announced that Sinfield would step down as defence coach before the start of this year’s Six Nations, Jones ended up filling that vacancy with Richard Wigglesworth remaining in charge of the attack.

That would make a chunk more sense but would raise the question of why we went all in on a defensive system that's entirely reliant on a reluctant defence coach?

Telegraph also says that the RFU are intent on holding him to his 12 month notice period, which could mean he's barred from being considered as a Lions coach, as well as stopping him from getting a job elsewhere. Must've been a hell of an issue, which raises very big questions about what the hells Borthwick is doing. Worrying times.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

I guess the environment hasn’t improved from pre World Cup then……