Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 6:15 pm
If it’s that Borthwick is tearing into junior staff then a) he’s a bigger idiot than Jones, b) it seems completely against his public persona* and c) the RFU are the biggest idiots for repeating the mistake.
From what I’ve read, the Walters move is mostly due to family reasons and also the opportunity to work in Ireland with the wider remit and greater control that their system allows.
Not doubting you EP, just surprised.
Yep. I feel very much the same.
Something doesn’t quite add up for me.
I’m not a particular fan of Borthwick and I’m willing to believe that he may be the common denominator in all of this. However, when I look at Walters and Jones’ exits, they’re somewhat countered by the fact that Wigglesworth, Sinfield, Harrison and Walters were happy to come with him in the first place and more recently, Strawbridge chose to join on a permanent basis. I can understand he allure of test rugby and (at the time) a RWC, but I’m not sure it would have been all that attractive if Borthwick really is that much of an a-hole.
differing stages of career tho for said coaches.
For Wigglesworth and Harrison perhaps, but not for Walters or Strawbridge.
We’ll probably never get to hear the full story. I just hope the environment is not as toxic as some are saying and we can secure suitable replacements.
Only a few weeks ago we were talking about England being on a positive trajectory and I’m really hoping this doesn’t derail that. We have a hard batch of AIs so we really need solid leadership.
I think we are reading too much into it. Be no more than he feels he cannot fully contribute in a restricted role, something that in the long term would not benefit the team nor his reputation.
I’m not a particular fan of Borthwick and I’m willing to believe that he may be the common denominator in all of this. However, when I look at Walters and Jones’ exits, they’re somewhat countered by the fact that Wigglesworth, Sinfield, Harrison and Walters were happy to come with him in the first place and more recently, Strawbridge chose to join on a permanent basis. I can understand he allure of test rugby and (at the time) a RWC, but I’m not sure it would have been all that attractive if Borthwick really is that much of an a-hole.
differing stages of career tho for said coaches.
For Wigglesworth and Harrison perhaps, but not for Walters or Strawbridge.
We’ll probably never get to hear the full story. I just hope the environment is not as toxic as some are saying and we can secure suitable replacements.
Only a few weeks ago we were talking about England being on a positive trajectory and I’m really hoping this doesn’t derail that. We have a hard batch of AIs so we really need solid leadership.
...my point was more about leaving than joining. For Walters and Jones they are eminently re-employable- seems like Walters and SB didn't get on, and Jones is Walters mate. Or as p/d says, he wanted something else.
Well I think there’s a lot of the last bit … all we know for certain is that two senior coaches have left and understandably, that rings alarm bells. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean Borthwick is a b@stard and/or inept.
Until there’s some actual evidence of that being the case, I’d prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt an recognise that there’s 2 sides to the story.
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 10:50 am
Well I think there’s a lot of the last bit … all we know for certain is that two senior coaches have left and understandably, that rings alarm bells. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean Borthwick is a b@stard and/or inept.
Until there’s some actual evidence of that being the case, I’d prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt an recognise that there’s 2 sides to the story.
Agreed - depending on results/performances. A few defeats and it will be 'no smoke without fire'. A few mistakes/yellow cards and it will be 'unhappy training camp environment'.
My main reservation about Borthwick now is whether he has adequate man-management skills. Basically, do good staff desert a good boss?
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 10:50 am
Well I think there’s a lot of the last bit … all we know for certain is that two senior coaches have left and understandably, that rings alarm bells. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean Borthwick is a b@stard and/or inept.
Until there’s some actual evidence of that being the case, I’d prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt an recognise that there’s 2 sides to the story.
. Basically, do good staff desert a good boss?
yes, all the time, though desert isn't quite the same as move on for a 'better' opportunity. TBH, when I managed people, moving on would be part of a development discussion, and I took pride in and encouraged people who progressed in that way if the opportunity didn't exist 'locally'.
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 10:50 am
Well I think there’s a lot of the last bit … all we know for certain is that two senior coaches have left and understandably, that rings alarm bells. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean Borthwick is a b@stard and/or inept.
Until there’s some actual evidence of that being the case, I’d prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt an recognise that there’s 2 sides to the story.
. Basically, do good staff desert a good boss?
yes, all the time, though desert isn't quite the same as move on for a 'better' opportunity. TBH, when I managed people, moving on would be part of a development discussion, and I took pride in and encouraged people who progressed in that way if the opportunity didn't exist 'locally'.
yes, all the time, though desert isn't quite the same as move on for a 'better' opportunity. TBH, when I managed people, moving on would be part of a development discussion, and I took pride in and encouraged people who progressed in that way if the opportunity didn't exist 'locally'.
Walters reads as this. Jones not so much.
frankly, i wasn't referring specifically to this set of events, just generally. But Walters and Jones are mates....apparently they both did great things with SA. Allegedly.
yes, all the time, though desert isn't quite the same as move on for a 'better' opportunity. TBH, when I managed people, moving on would be part of a development discussion, and I took pride in and encouraged people who progressed in that way if the opportunity didn't exist 'locally'.
Walters reads as this. Jones not so much.
frankly, i wasn't referring specifically to this set of events, just generally. But Walters and Jones are mates....apparently they both did great things with SA. Allegedly.
In my way of thinking, Borthwick, if he was free to appoint, must have 'sold' the jobs on a 4 year stint basis, surely? Thus, most definitely, the staff have deserted within the stated (presumably) agreement. That must say something about Borthwick's original clarity OR his management style. If he presented and maintained the right environment why would decent coaches not want to see out the term?
I'd have thought the current batch of players, with a decent young group following, represented a pretty good option compared with any other international side. Good coaches should want to be a part of that, going forward, one could reasonably expect.
frankly, i wasn't referring specifically to this set of events, just generally. But Walters and Jones are mates....apparently they both did great things with SA. Allegedly.
In my way of thinking, Borthwick, if he was free to appoint, must have 'sold' the jobs on a 4 year stint basis, surely? Thus, most definitely, the staff have deserted within the stated (presumably) agreement. That must say something about Borthwick's original clarity OR his management style. If he presented and maintained the right environment why would decent coaches not want to see out the term?
I'd have thought the current batch of players, with a decent young group following, represented a pretty good option compared with any other international side. Good coaches should want to be a part of that, going forward, one could reasonably expect.
This is the part I find curious. The potential is definitely there and the kudos that winning something with England would bring is massive. I imagine we also pay pretty competitively too.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 4:48 pm
On another theme entirely, now Itoje is Saracens captain he must get the England job too.
Why? Who are you starting at hooker?
Being stand-in captain for England when George comes off is obviously a sign he’s more up for it than previously, but it still feels like there might be a bit of resistance to being the face of England rugby and all the media presence/scrutiny that comes with it.
Maybe see how he does for Saracens first?
I have no idea how the choice of captain might play in to any of this talk of morale/energy in the camp with these constant changes and departures, but George seems like a very popular and level headed presence.
frankly, i wasn't referring specifically to this set of events, just generally. But Walters and Jones are mates....apparently they both did great things with SA. Allegedly.
why would decent coaches not want to see out the term?
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2024 12:12 pm
frankly, i wasn't referring specifically to this set of events, just generally. But Walters and Jones are mates....apparently they both did great things with SA. Allegedly.
why would decent coaches not want to see out the term?
I give up....why?
Are we in top wind-up mood? Two reasons: 1. To move to a better job. 2. Because the job is not what they thought it would be!! The former is open to doubt IF the job is what it should be - hence the latter. Either way, the appointment process must have been flawed.
Could be a great way to position himself as a successor - possibly even in a Mike Ford style coup.
I'd cheerfully dump the entire coaching crew in favour of Edwards but, as you say, it won't happen. Shades of Brian Clough not getting the footie job, perhaps?
Maybe Jones just didnt get on with Borthwick and found him difficult to work with? He's not going to be short of offers.
I'd love Edwards to be involved but thats pretty doubtful right now. Pity as an experienced hand like his could be a very handy asset to this coaching team.
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 9:15 am
Yeah, the only way I could see it happening is if Edwards was offered Borthwick’s job which won’t happen for all sorts of reasons …
why would decent coaches not want to see out the term?
I give up....why?
Are we in top wind-up mood? Two reasons: 1. To move to a better job. 2. Because the job is not what they thought it would be!! The former is open to doubt IF the job is what it should be - hence the latter. Either way, the appointment process must have been flawed.
I just don’t understand these huge leaps you make and then trying to make an appearance fit your anti RFU narrative. There’s enough to hang em with without that
Two reasons: 1. To move to a better job. 2. Because the job is not what they thought it would be!! The former is open to doubt IF the job is what it should be - hence the latter. Either way, the appointment process must have been flawed.