England vs New Zealand - Saturday

[FKAS]

lol

Embarrassing.

I'm not usually one for wheeling out the guillotine, but if we go 2 from 4 this series we have to start thinking about another coach surely? He's managed to lose several highly respected assistants, over-promoted others and bar a third place finish in the WC accomplished roughly fuck all

Two so far. One of who moved for a plum job closer to his wife's family.

He's still living off of the result Vs Wales to some degree. We're in a better place than we were under Eddie but that doesn't say a lot. Simply BetterResults need to start coming soon. Not sure the RFU will wield the axe again, it's too expensive to keep doing and it's not like there's any coaches immediately available to come in. Prem clubs won't be keen to do business after reports over how the RFU treated Leicester during the negotiations for Borthwick nor how disruptive it was to lose a coach mid season.

[Epaminondas Pules]

One of the most telling moments for me was on 39 mins when we had a lineout just in our half. Set up the maul and get penalty advantage. And then the team had a collective brain fart, can’t figure out how to organise themselves, rushes into nothingness. It was embarrassing to watch a team not know how to set themselves up to attack with penalty advantage.

Once they got pen advantage they then tried to change completely into a shape that none of them seemed to know and basically fucked up a good attacking freebie. Like they’ve been programmed to change when certain circumstances arrive, rather than just playing.

[twitchy]

I'm no real SB fan but what do people expect from this group of players? It's a flawed squad in key areas.

[fivepointer]

Cant see a change of coach in the near future. SB has - just - enough credit in the bank, 13 wins out of 25 games - 52%

[Banquo]

Cant see a change of coach in the near future. SB has - just - enough credit in the bank, 13 wins out of 25 games - 52%

Earghhh

[Mr Mwenda]

I'm no real SB fan but what do people expect from this group of players? It's a flawed squad in key areas.

I think this is a good point. But it is also a shame because there are several players who really are outstanding.

[Banquo]

I'm no real SB fan but what do people expect from this group of players? It's a flawed squad in key areas.

The bench was self inflicted, but I agree that the players aren’t as good as is believed.

[Banquo]

I'm no real SB fan but what do people expect from this group of players? It's a flawed squad in key areas.

I think this is a good point. But it is also a shame because there are several players who really are outstanding.

Too much meh I suppose.

[Mr Mwenda]

Cant see a change of coach in the near future. SB has - just - enough credit in the bank, 13 wins out of 25 games - 52%

Also, aren't salmon blini and his merry men investments in the future to an extent? They were hired too early in their careers due to Jones melting down. I don't think that the England gig is the place for learning on the job but having taken that course the rfu presumably will presumably have some patience.

[Scrumhead]

Bench made a huge difference in the wrong direction. And we stopped playing! Bring Randall on and totally negate his game with the tactics! Terrible game management from the coaches. We just shat ourselves. But to be fair they were far superior largely, certainly ball in hand.

As was predictable.

Yeah. This is the most annoying piece for me. ‘The Bomb Squad’ comes on to put their foot on the throat of the opponent. We use our bench to attempt to contain the opposition and protect a lead. The mentality is almost the polar opposite. Worse, we don’t even pick the right personnel for a containment job.

These narrow defeats are infuriating. With the exception of the France game, it’s like we stop playing at 60 mins, encourage the opposition to attack us until they inevitably score. Then spend the last 5mins trying to play again. It’s bizarre.

Overall, that was a big backwards step from the summer and now 2/4 looks like our best case which is just not good enough.

Small positive, but I did think Spencer was better (and considerably zippier) than I expected him to be.

[p/d]

Bench made a huge difference in the wrong direction. And we stopped playing! Bring Randall on and totally negate his game with the tactics! Terrible game management from the coaches. We just shat ourselves. But to be fair they were far superior largely, certainly ball in hand.

As was predictable.

Yeah. This is the most annoying piece for me. ‘The Bomb Squad’ comes on to put their foot on the throat of the opponent. We use our bench to attempt to contain the opposition and protect a lead. The mentality is almost the polar opposite. Worse, we don’t even pick the right personnel for a containment job.

These narrow defeats are infuriating. With the exception of the France game, it’s like we stop playing at 60 mins, encourage the opposition to attack us until they inevitably score. Then spend the last 5mins trying to play again. It’s bizarre.

Overall, that was a big backwards step from the summer and now 2/4 looks like our best case which is just not good enough.

Small positive, but I did think Spencer was better (and considerably zippier) than I expected him to be.

This.
If you go a 6:2 split then you sure as hell need Ito use it to up the intensity.


Again we select Dombrandt and choose to bring him on once Smith has been removed.

[Scrumhead]

Exactly.

One other thing … Ben Earl’s tackle technique needs attention. A bit like in the France game, an avoidable ‘no arms’ tackle cost us at a really important point of the game.

If Earl tackled properyly, Itoje’s turnover wouldn’t have been reversed and we wouldn’t have gifted NZ the 3 points to make it a single score game. If I had to pinpoint the sucker punch of a momentum swing, it was that moment.

Same offence, very similar outcome.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I'm no real SB fan but what do people expect from this group of players? It's a flawed squad in key areas.

The bench was self inflicted, but I agree that the players aren’t as good as is believed.

Though the squad and team are the coaches choice. There are alternatives who could have been looked at in the squad environment who offer something different. They chose safety and players known to be OK or never will be. Bold we are not.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Exactly.

One other thing … Ben Earl’s tackle technique needs attention. A bit like in the France game, an avoidable ‘no arms’ tackle cost us at a really important point of the game.

If Earl tackled properyly, Itoje’s turnover wouldn’t have been reversed and we wouldn’t have gifted NZ the 3 points to make it a single score game. If I had to pinpoint the sucker punch of a momentum swing, it was that moment.

Same offence, very similar outcome.

To be fair that’s a damn hard one to get right. LCD does it, but once you’re that low it is hard to get arms out. The France one was harsh cause his arms were out. Yesterday was definite no arm.

[Oakboy]

I'm no real SB fan but what do people expect from this group of players? It's a flawed squad in key areas.

The bench was self inflicted, but I agree that the players aren’t as good as is believed.

I really want to disagree but somebody summed it up as, "Take Itoje, Marcus and IFW out through injury and we are no better than ordinary."

Harsh but not totally wrong. Picking a XV from the combined squads yesterday would probably only include those three from our lot.

I think SB COULD improve several areas with better selection, especially the back row.

[Cameo]

You are an interesting team to watch now. To me that counts for a lot (not just as a neutral, I take the same view with my own team)

The defence gets you points but also looks fragile (the classic risk reward of a rush defence, albeit SA seem to take a lot of the risk out with their version). It also relies on the ref being willing to let you make rucks pretty messy with bodies flying about, but I've been expecting SA and Ireland to get called out on that for years and it's not happened so I think you'll be fine.

In attack, I thought you looked sharp at times, hence the All Blacks tackling the wrong man several times, but looking back you never really looked like scoring (other than the intercept obviously). Part of that will be because you went for the posts whenever you had the chance. Can't know how it would have played out if you had opted to keep the pressure on instead so not going to give too strong a view on that, but the one thing I just don't get is going for a drop goal when you have penalty advantage in front of the posts. You are literally turning the worst case scenario into the best possible outcome.

New Zealand are clearly still in a bit of a development phase. Some great individual moments and bits of attack but not a fully coherent, composed unit just yet. This tour could be the making of them, but more likely it will be when they get Mounga back.

[Scrumhead]

I'm no real SB fan but what do people expect from this group of players? It's a flawed squad in key areas.

The bench was self inflicted, but I agree that the players aren’t as good as is believed.

I really want to disagree but somebody summed it up as, "Take Itoje, Marcus and IFW out through injury and we are no better than ordinary."

Harsh but not totally wrong. Picking a XV from the combined squads yesterday would probably only include those three from our lot.

I think SB COULD improve several areas with better selection, especially the back row.

I’m not sure it’s because the players lack the requisite quality. I think most of it is tactical. We say we’re going to play ambitious rugby and pick players for what they can do with the ball, but then abandon that idea if it doesn’t work after 2/3 phases to kick. We looked like we were building a decent attack in the summer and then mostly abandoned it for a lot kicks yesterday.

[Skalyba]

Bench made a huge difference in the wrong direction. And we stopped playing! Bring Randall on and totally negate his game with the tactics! Terrible game management from the coaches. We just shat ourselves. But to be fair they were far superior largely, certainly ball in hand.

As was predictable.

Yeah. This is the most annoying piece for me. ‘The Bomb Squad’ comes on to put their foot on the throat of the opponent. We use our bench to attempt to contain the opposition and protect a lead. The mentality is almost the polar opposite. Worse, we don’t even pick the right personnel for a containment job.

These narrow defeats are infuriating. With the exception of the France game, it’s like we stop playing at 60 mins, encourage the opposition to attack us until they inevitably score. Then spend the last 5mins trying to play again. It’s bizarre.

Overall, that was a big backwards step from the summer and now 2/4 looks like our best case which is just not good enough.

Small positive, but I did think Spencer was better (and considerably zippier) than I expected him to be.

Sometime ago I saw a quote saying you pick your bench first and then the starting team. Given our playing resources, and the game we're trying to transition to, we should be doing exactly that. Pick a bench that'll have impact when they come on - M Smith, Earl, CCS, Genge, Dan, Chessum etc. It does mean we lose a couple of quality players from the starting line up but we have the depth to deal with that - i.e. a backrow of Curry/Underhill, Willis and Hill/Pearson has a good balance and then Earl/CCS coming on ups the ante. Also start with a 12 at 12 and either move Lawrence to 13 or drop him

[Scrumhead]

Umm what? No point having a maximum impact bench if you’re considerably weakening your starting XV!

If everyone is fit and available and selection is a bit smarter, it kind of takes care of itself.

[FKAS]

As was predictable.

Yeah. This is the most annoying piece for me. ‘The Bomb Squad’ comes on to put their foot on the throat of the opponent. We use our bench to attempt to contain the opposition and protect a lead. The mentality is almost the polar opposite. Worse, we don’t even pick the right personnel for a containment job.

These narrow defeats are infuriating. With the exception of the France game, it’s like we stop playing at 60 mins, encourage the opposition to attack us until they inevitably score. Then spend the last 5mins trying to play again. It’s bizarre.

Overall, that was a big backwards step from the summer and now 2/4 looks like our best case which is just not good enough.

Small positive, but I did think Spencer was better (and considerably zippier) than I expected him to be.

This.
If you go a 6:2 split then you sure as hell need Ito use it to up the intensity.


Again we select Dombrandt and choose to bring him on once Smith has been removed.

I can't really remember Dombrandt doing anything after he came on. I was watching it in a pub so wasn't glued to the game but Dombrandt is really one of those who's never looked like an international level player.

Randall another, his passing was a downgrade on Spencer.

A number of changes are required before next weekend. It's going to be a test of Scowly Baldpatch to see if he can bring a large change in just a week.

[Epaminondas Pules]

He was telling in defence but that’s it. Equally we stopped playing which negated him somewhat

[Oakboy]

Is JvP fit? If so, how can he now be 4th choice SH at best? He was No 1 and Mitchell was not even a squad member.

There are other questions. I'm not a fan of Underhill but how did his performances justify dropping that far down the pecking order? Did either Curry's performance justify overtaking him? Or Dombrandt's? Are any of the four better than Pearson in terms of current form and fitness? Or Hill, or Willis etc.

All of it is strange in the context of selecting Slade and Ford in a 6:2 set-up. Fitness/form needs re-defining perhaps.

[Banquo]

I'm no real SB fan but what do people expect from this group of players? It's a flawed squad in key areas.

The bench was self inflicted, but I agree that the players aren’t as good as is believed.

Though the squad and team are the coaches choice. There are alternatives who could have been looked at in the squad environment who offer something different. They chose safety and players known to be OK or never will be. Bold we are not.

Not sure many would have picked a different starting xv in fairness, given injuries. The bench was comedy tho.


On a side note, Spencer went ok I thought.

[Banquo]

I'm no real SB fan but what do people expect from this group of players? It's a flawed squad in key areas.

The bench was self inflicted, but I agree that the players aren’t as good as is believed.

I really want to disagree but somebody summed it up as, "Take Itoje, Marcus and IFW out through injury and we are no better than ordinary."

Harsh but not totally wrong. Picking a XV from the combined squads yesterday would probably only include those three from our lot.

I think SB COULD improve several areas with better selection, especially the back row.

Ccs was excellent I thought. We’ve nothing much better in the front and second rows, maybe Willis could come into 8 and Earl to 7, but who knows if that’d be better; we could certainly do with a few ruck turnovers and slowing their ball down.
Still unconvinced by Marcus, midfield not great and as a huge Freeman fan, felt he looked a bit statuesque compared with his oppos. IFW is the biz with the ball. They targeted Furbank in the air, it’s an obvious one. But stick Steward in and you have a different problem to solve.

[Banquo]

The bench was self inflicted, but I agree that the players aren’t as good as is believed.

I really want to disagree but somebody summed it up as, "Take Itoje, Marcus and IFW out through injury and we are no better than ordinary."

Harsh but not totally wrong. Picking a XV from the combined squads yesterday would probably only include those three from our lot.

I think SB COULD improve several areas with better selection, especially the back row.

I’m not sure it’s because the players lack the requisite quality. I think most of it is tactical. We say we’re going to play ambitious rugby and pick players for what they can do with the ball, but then abandon that idea if it doesn’t work after 2/3 phases to kick. We looked like we were building a decent attack in the summer and then mostly abandoned it for a lot kicks yesterday.

It’s both- but we’ve had this debate on player quality v tactics for years. Maybe our tactics are a function of (lack of trust in) talent, or players not trusting themselves.