Team for Japan

[Mikey Brown]

Well then.

1. Baxter
2. Anybody but George
3. Cole (goodbye Dan)
4. Chessum if fit
5. Martin
6. Hill
7. Underhill
8. Willis (but realistically Hill and Willis would not be selected in the same backrow with 5 caps between them)

9. JVP… I guess?
10. Smith
11. Sleightholme
12. Dingwall
13. Freeman
14. Roebuck
15. Furbank

16. Whoever 17. Genge (has Obano’s ship sailed?) 18. Stuart 19 Coles 20. CCS/Earl 21. 22. Smith 23. Fucking Beard or someone I don’t know why did I even fucking start this? Lozowski would be funny I guess.

[Mikey Brown]

Tried to pick from at least semi-realistic Borthwick options there, so no Seb Atkinson or anything.

Hoping Hill, Willis, Dingwall for well for the As.

[FKAS]

Chessum is put until the new year, no chance he plays.

I'd go:

Baxter, Dan, Davison
Ewels, Coles
Underhill, Dombrandt, CCS
JvP, F Smith
Lozowski, Lawrence
Freeman, Steward, Sleightholme

LCD, Genge, Stuart, Martin/Itoje (whichever is the least banged up), Earl, Spencer, M Smith, Roebuck

Rotate the squad a bit start generating some squad depth but keep some of the areas cohesive.

If we can make call ups from the A side then Heyes, Ted Hill and Dingwall would come in to that squad for Davison, Dombrandt and Lozowski.

[Stom]

Nah.

Baxter
Dan
Cole
Itoje
Martin
CCS
Dombrandt
Underhill
Randall
Smith
Sleightholme
Lozowski
Freeman
Roebuck
Steward

LCD, Obano, Stuart, Coles, Hill, Porter, FSmith, Beard

[Oakboy]

Is IFW not going to be fit for next week?

[Stom]

Is IFW not going to be fit for next week?

No idea. Sure, if he is fit he plays.

[Oakboy]

I think the last match before the 6N needs to be more about who has been found wanting to the extent of being dumped. Let's start from there, have a re-think and sod the consequences. I'd be considering: Cole, George, Isiekwe, Curry x 2, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford, Slade, Lawrence, Steward. The more youthful ones on the list can always fight their way back with club form.

[Stom]

I think the last match before the 6N needs to be more about who has been found wanting to the extent of being dumped. Let's start from there, have a re-think and sod the consequences. I'd be considering: Cole, George, Isiekwe, Curry x 2, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford, Slade, Lawrence, Steward. The more youthful ones on the list can always fight their way back with club form.

I did the same, but my list is different from yours. And I also think this could (should) be Cole's last game, so let's give him a send off and bring the kids in for the 6N.

[Beasties]

Willis to do well today and be drafted into the squad and possibly straight into the team v Japan? Has a stormer v Japan leaving all of us scratching our heads at why tf he wasn’t in to start with. He’ll then be the new messiah but not had any sort of test to prove he actually is good at this level. Queue much debate for the next three months due to lack of evidence which we could’ve had by actually picking him for the AIs….

Christ, I’m annoyed.

[Stom]

Willis to do well today and be drafted into the squad and possibly straight into the team v Japan? Has a stormer v Japan leaving all of us scratching our heads at why tf he wasn’t in to start with. He’ll then be the new messiah but not had any sort of test to prove he actually is good at this level. Queue much debate for the next three months due to lack of evidence which we could’ve had by actually picking him for the AIs….

Christ, I’m annoyed.

No chance he's in the XV for Japan. He's not had 3 squads to learn the "defensive positioning and system".

[Skalyba]

Willis to do well today and be drafted into the squad and possibly straight into the team v Japan? Has a stormer v Japan leaving all of us scratching our heads at why tf he wasn’t in to start with. He’ll then be the new messiah but not had any sort of test to prove he actually is good at this level. Queue much debate for the next three months due to lack of evidence which we could’ve had by actually picking him for the AIs….

Christ, I’m annoyed.

I'd have liked to see Willis but it feels to me like Borthwick has used this series to give other fringe players that exact opportunity - Spencer, Dombrant, M Smith, CCS all getting a lot more gametime than they have previously. The former both played themselves out of future opportunities, Smith has showed he can/should be the starting 10, CCS also showing he's got it (though he'd probably come off the bench for me at the moment).

If it was my choice we'd lose Spencer, Dombrant, Cole (after a final game), Ford, George, Slade, Lawrence (maybe, not sure who'd we replace him with).

[Skalyba]

Baxter
Dan
Cole
Coles
Martin
Hill
CCS
Underhill
JVP
Smith
Sleightholme
Lozowski
Freeman
Roebuck
Furbank

[Banquo]

Interesting how JVP is getting picked. I’m a fan, but he was poor yesterday.

[Stom]

Interesting how JVP is getting picked. I’m a fan, but he was poor yesterday.

He was, but what choices do we have? I would absolutely promote Porter so long as he doesn't crap the bed today. But outside of Mitchell, our SHs all seem to have the same failings...suggesting it might not be a player failure but a coaching one.

[Banquo]

Interesting how JVP is getting picked. I’m a fan, but he was poor yesterday.

He was, but what choices do we have? I would absolutely promote Porter so long as he doesn't crap the bed today. But outside of Mitchell, our SHs all seem to have the same failings...suggesting it might not be a player failure but a coaching one.

whose coaching?

Spencer, btw.

[Oakboy]

Interesting how JVP is getting picked. I’m a fan, but he was poor yesterday.

He was, but what choices do we have? I would absolutely promote Porter so long as he doesn't crap the bed today. But outside of Mitchell, our SHs all seem to have the same failings...suggesting it might not be a player failure but a coaching one.

whose coaching?

Spencer, btw.

Before the match, I questioned JvP's likely morale in the context of Spencer having been the accredited culprit in going off-script and losing us the match v Aus. JvP looked scared to make mistakes and under-prepared in the charge-down aspects of box-kicking within current referee guidelines. Yes, he was poor but he is a classic example of a player underperforming because of inadequate preparation, IMO. Getting charged down must be sickening but there are obvious ways to avoid it: pass instead, run it instead, kick more quickly, feint and use the other foot etc. How much latitude did he have, though? How ready was he for the problem?

[Banquo]

He was, but what choices do we have? I would absolutely promote Porter so long as he doesn't crap the bed today. But outside of Mitchell, our SHs all seem to have the same failings...suggesting it might not be a player failure but a coaching one.

whose coaching?

Spencer, btw.

Before the match, I questioned JvP's likely morale in the context of Spencer having been the accredited culprit in going off-script and losing us the match v Aus. JvP looked scared to make mistakes and under-prepared in the charge-down aspects of box-kicking within current referee guidelines. Yes, he was poor but he is a classic example of a player underperforming because of inadequate preparation, IMO. Getting charged down must be sickening but there are obvious ways to avoid it: pass instead, run it instead, kick more quickly, feint and use the other foot etc. How much latitude did he have, though? How ready was he for the problem?

He's been charged down a lot, but he also passed poorly- that was partly our own inaccuracy. His technique is poor tbh; using the other foot on the right side of the park is both tricky and tbh hardly any players/9 are that two footed for box kicks, Dupont being an exception (though Libbok for all his faults looks like he kicks well of either foot- Healy was talking crap about him yesterday, quel surprise).

what do you mean by 'latitude'--- if its not on, don't do it, simples.

and if a player can't take the 'pressure' of the opportunity to replace someone, they aren't up to being picked. That's a non starter argument, else you'd never drop anyone for poor performance for fear of what it does to the person lucky enough to be picked for England. This heavy shirt stuff...lol.

[fivepointer]

The thing about Etzebeth charging down SH's kicks is that its not anything new. He does it all the time. We should have been aware that this was a likely tactic and thought about how to combat it.

I'd stick with JvP for japan, accepting that he was under par yesterday. I would stand George down and probably rest both Itoje and Martin. A change at centre is surely on the cards.

[Oakboy]

whose coaching?

Spencer, btw.

Before the match, I questioned JvP's likely morale in the context of Spencer having been the accredited culprit in going off-script and losing us the match v Aus. JvP looked scared to make mistakes and under-prepared in the charge-down aspects of box-kicking within current referee guidelines. Yes, he was poor but he is a classic example of a player underperforming because of inadequate preparation, IMO. Getting charged down must be sickening but there are obvious ways to avoid it: pass instead, run it instead, kick more quickly, feint and use the other foot etc. How much latitude did he have, though? How ready was he for the problem?

He's been charged down a lot, but he also passed poorly- that was partly our own inaccuracy. His technique is poor tbh; using the other foot on the right side of the park is both tricky and tbh hardly any players/9 are that two footed for box kicks, Dupont being an exception (though Libbok for all his faults looks like he kicks well of either foot- Healy was talking crap about him yesterday, quel surprise).

what do you mean by 'latitude'--- if its not on, don't do it, simples.

and if a player can't take the 'pressure' of the opportunity to replace someone, they aren't up to being picked. That's a non starter argument, else you'd never drop anyone for poor performance for fear of what it does to the person lucky enough to be picked for England. This heavy shirt stuff...lol.

By latitude, I meant was he instructed to box-kick or whatever in specific circumstances or was he free to choose what to do. In other words, what was the script and was it the same one from which Spencer diverged. The whole business seems to have added pressure which is cranky for a player returning from a long absence against the No 1 team in the world. No matter how fringe-trivial it was, it was still in his mind, I'd guess. Coaches are supposed to help not hinder.

[FKAS]

The thing about Etzebeth charging down SH's kicks is that its not anything new. He does it all the time. We should have been aware that this was a likely tactic and thought about how to combat it.

We probably weren't aware that the officials would let him do it from an offside position.

JvP presumably came in because he had the best box kicking game for kicking short and us contesting. He does have a long wind up on his box kicks and always has. The kicks were effective but we should have been cuter about ensuring the Boks were onside and JvP protected.

[Captainhaircut]

May as well try out this Earl at centre experiment properly. CCS is an 8 at this point in time, not sure his dirty work is good enough to playing 6. Freeman has to play 13.

Genge
George
Stuart
Martin
Itoje
Hill
Underhill
CCS
JVP
Smith
Earl
Freeman
Sleightholme
IFW
Steward

Baxter
Dan
Heyes
Coles
Willis
Curry (tom if fit, Ben if not)
Porter
Lozowski

[jngf]

I would like to see Sally Bowles try out Ben Earl at inside centre. Only time I want to hear about Slade is from 1st December onwards thank you

[jngf]

Also find it amusing how some of the commentariat think England beating Japan is a done deal - I’d say it’s likely but certainly not inevitable

[Tom Moore]

Willis to do well today and be drafted into the squad and possibly straight into the team v Japan? Has a stormer v Japan leaving all of us scratching our heads at why tf he wasn’t in to start with. He’ll then be the new messiah but not had any sort of test to prove he actually is good at this level. Queue much debate for the next three months due to lack of evidence which we could’ve had by actually picking him for the AIs….

Christ, I’m annoyed.

No chance he's in the XV for Japan. He's not had 3 squads to learn the "defensive positioning and system".

Given the last three matches, I don't think anyone has.

[Insouciant]

Yeah I'm not comfy being over confident about beating Japan. We're at home to many brains farts presently, and those can cost you in any match. We haven't showed a huge amount of smarts in the opposition 22 and we're also disjointed defensively. Will have to see what team we have but this fixture needs to be taken seriously from performance, result and future combinations perspectives.