Team for Italy

[Mellsblue]

lol

[Epaminondas Pules]

Unfortunately Sleightholme was pretty poor kick chase aside, like others was all at sea in defence and gifted Scotland an easy bit of counter attack scoring ball. He is good going forward generally tho.

I don’t think personnel change will make a heap of difference tbh, though I would change the midfield and poss backrow.

This! Well, not the players anyway. The midfield is a mess, and from what's there I would go Dingers and Lawrence. Backrow changes might be forced upon us, though there is a rest week. Hopefully it doesn't mean yet another chance for Dombrandt. Knowing System Binomdist he'll call up Underhill despite him being injured. It is easy when it's not your job to say something like 6. Hill, 7. B Curry, 8. CCS, 20. Pollock, but it would at least be a bit of fun.

And whilst I agree with the sentiment that that backs need license to attack, we've got the wrong coaching team for that. We've had an attack coach for two years now, and yet we couldn't attack a kebab after a night on the beers! The players are given an absolute game plan. There was a really telling moment against Scotland where off first phase we made several yards over the gainline, presenting really quick front foot ball. Mitchell didn't even look, and the first pod of forwards automatically set up for a box kick. It is all pre-planned based on lines rather than pictures.

[Mikey Brown]

One thing for sure is we shouldn't be picking that turnstile daly.

I know it looks bad but I think you just have to applaud his versatility.

[Oakboy]

And whilst I agree with the sentiment that that backs need license to attack, we've got the wrong coaching team for that. We've had an attack coach for two years now, and yet we couldn't attack a kebab after a night on the beers! The players are given an absolute game plan. There was a really telling moment against Scotland where off first phase we made several yards over the gainline, presenting really quick front foot ball. Mitchell didn't even look, and the first pod of forwards automatically set up for a box kick. It is all pre-planned based on lines rather than pictures.

Basically, then, Borthwick IS Jones MKII. It's depressing to think we have to wait for him to a hit a bad-enough losing streak to get dumped. Meanwhile we will have nothing worth watching.

[Mikey Brown]

Is there not an element of starting the game a bit looser and feeling like it was playing in to Scotland's hands? The execution to run multiple phases wasn't there so tightening up did seem to be more effective. I didn't like it, and obviously there are coaching issues within those problem areas, but it made at least some sense as a general strategy?

To flip it from a Scotland perspective, we had a ton more carries, metres, posession, territory, passes, offloads, defenders beaten etc. It's really hard to look at those stats and know we didn't win. Only scoring 15 points.

For the most part it was two clashing brands of ineptitude, and I do want Borthwick/WW to allow them a bit more freedom to attack, but I do sort of get why they went the kicking route.

[Epaminondas Pules]

And whilst I agree with the sentiment that that backs need license to attack, we've got the wrong coaching team for that. We've had an attack coach for two years now, and yet we couldn't attack a kebab after a night on the beers! The players are given an absolute game plan. There was a really telling moment against Scotland where off first phase we made several yards over the gainline, presenting really quick front foot ball. Mitchell didn't even look, and the first pod of forwards automatically set up for a box kick. It is all pre-planned based on lines rather than pictures.

Basically, then, Borthwick IS Jones MKII. It's depressing to think we have to wait for him to a hit a bad-enough losing streak to get dumped. Meanwhile we will have nothing worth watching.

I don't see anything changing soon. We're bad enough at decision making and game intelligence as it is, and it seems to be being actively coached out of the players, and has been over a number of years now.

[Oakboy]

Is there not an element of starting the game a bit looser and feeling like it was playing in to Scotland's hands? The execution to run multiple phases wasn't there so tightening up did seem to be more effective. I didn't like it, and obviously there are coaching issues within those problem areas, but it made at least some sense as a general strategy?

To flip it from a Scotland perspective, we had a ton more carries, metres, posession, territory, passes, offloads, defenders beaten etc. It's really hard to look at those stats and know we didn't win. Only scoring 15 points.

For the most part it was two clashing brands of ineptitude, and I do want Borthwick/WW to allow them a bit more freedom to attack, but I do sort of get why they went the kicking route.

Yes, to your last sentence but is EP right that Borthwick and Co are incapable of a braver approach, though, if its not in their DNA?

[Mellsblue]

Is there not an element of starting the game a bit looser and feeling like it was playing in to Scotland's hands? The execution to run multiple phases wasn't there so tightening up did seem to be more effective. I didn't like it, and obviously there are coaching issues within those problem areas, but it made at least some sense as a general strategy?

To flip it from a Scotland perspective, we had a ton more carries, metres, posession, territory, passes, offloads, defenders beaten etc. It's really hard to look at those stats and know we didn't win. Only scoring 15 points.

For the most part it was two clashing brands of ineptitude, and I do want Borthwick/WW to allow them a bit more freedom to attack, but I do sort of get why they went the kicking route.

Yes, to your last sentence but is EP right that Borthwick and Co are incapable of a braver approach, though, if its not in their DNA?

I’d say they’re incapable of coaching it or, at least, incapable of coaching it well enough to beat anyone above Blaydon 2nd XV.

[Mellsblue]

Injury update:

Need to monitor the No 8 Tom Willis, who failed a head injury assessment in the Scotland win, and the flanker Tom Curry, who picked up a dead leg.

George Martin, who withdrew from the match-day squad with a knee issue, should be available to face Italy on March 9, but it is unlikely that George Furbank, the full back who broke his arm in December, will play in the tournament now.

[Banquo]

And whilst I agree with the sentiment that that backs need license to attack, we've got the wrong coaching team for that. We've had an attack coach for two years now, and yet we couldn't attack a kebab after a night on the beers! The players are given an absolute game plan. There was a really telling moment against Scotland where off first phase we made several yards over the gainline, presenting really quick front foot ball. Mitchell didn't even look, and the first pod of forwards automatically set up for a box kick. It is all pre-planned based on lines rather than pictures.

Basically, then, Borthwick IS Jones MKII. It's depressing to think we have to wait for him to a hit a bad-enough losing streak to get dumped. Meanwhile we will have nothing worth watching.

Jones was way better than Borthwick for the first years in results and performance. Obnoxious obvs but a better intl head coach by a long way.

[Mellsblue]

44 box-kicks by England across first three games — more than any other home nation.

England retain possession from those box-kicks only 11.4 per cent of the time — the worst rate of the home nations.

Simply Baldrick has a cunning plan.

[Oakboy]

44 box-kicks by England across first three games — more than any other home nation.

England retain possession from those box-kicks only 11.4 per cent of the time — the worst rate of the home nations.

Simply Baldrick has a cunning plan.

to prove how inept he is???

[Mikey Brown]

I can't distinguish this from the Scotland post-mortem anymore so here's a 23 for Italy. We all know the real focus should be on the coaching team, but there's not much debate to be had in just saying "get better coaches".

1. Baxter
2. Dan
3. Stuart
4. Itoje (c)
5. Chessum
6. CCS
7. Curry
8. Earl (more because it's inevitable than anything else)

9. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. Anybody*
12. Dingwall
13. Lawrence (again I wouldn't start from here, but see if things are a bit more fluid through midfield with Dingwall at 12.
14. Freeman
15. Smith

16. George 17. Rodd 18. Heyes 19. Martin 20. Hill 21. Pollock 22. JVP 23. Anybody else

Is this too much chopping and changing? Probably, but whatever. Something needs to change.

The Willis injury is a concern but the extra week off might help there. Ruck security seemed pretty poor in the Scotland game. P/D you can look forward to some individual ruck effectiveness stats being posted soon. I'd love a reason to drop Earl down to the bench but Pollock can come in to the 23 if Willis doesn't make it. Just give T Curry a break.

*On one hand it feels harsh to judge Sleightholme when we don't seem to use him in attack at all, but he has struggled defensively. Murley obviously had a mixed game but I'd love to see him get another shot (if fit) and think from a man-management perspective it would be a good long-term move.

Roebuck however also feels too good to be completely left out in the cold. Clearly the best aerial talent, up there with Freeman, but shown some great flashes in attack too. Does he look more defensively solid in general, or has he just not had the same exposure to the current mess we've got going on with our wide defence?

I only realised I'd forgotten Genge completely once I'd typed this out. Now I'm trying to recall even seeing him in the Scotland game. I may be miles off and his stats are fantastic, but I'm just bored of seeing him.

[Banquo]

I can't distinguish this from the Scotland post-mortem anymore so here's a 23 for Italy. We all know the real focus should be on the coaching team, but there's not much debate to be had in just saying "get better coaches".

1. Baxter
2. Dan
3. Stuart
4. Itoje (c)
5. Chessum
6. CCS
7. Curry
8. Earl (more because it's inevitable than anything else)

9. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. Anybody*
12. Dingwall
13. Lawrence (again I wouldn't start from here, but see if things are a bit more fluid through midfield with Dingwall at 12.
14. Freeman
15. Smith

16. George 17. Rodd 18. Heyes 19. Martin 20. Hill 21. Pollock 22. JVP 23. Anybody else

Is this too much chopping and changing? Probably, but whatever. Something needs to change.

The Willis injury is a concern but the extra week off might help there. Ruck security seemed pretty poor in the Scotland game. P/D you can look forward to some individual ruck effectiveness stats being posted soon. I'd love a reason to drop Earl down to the bench but Pollock can come in to the 23 if Willis doesn't make it. Just give T Curry a break.

*On one hand it feels harsh to judge Sleightholme when we don't seem to use him in attack at all, but he has struggled defensively. Murley obviously had a mixed game but I'd love to see him get another shot (if fit) and think from a man-management perspective it would be a good long-term move.

Roebuck however also feels too good to be completely left out in the cold. Clearly the best aerial talent, up there with Freeman, but shown some great flashes in attack too. Does he look more defensively solid in general, or has he just not had the same exposure to the current mess we've got going on with our wide defence?

I only realised I'd forgotten Genge completely once I'd typed this out. Now I'm trying to recall even seeing him in the Scotland game. I may be miles off and his stats are fantastic, but I'm just bored of seeing him.

harsh on Daly who has positively impacted when he's come on. Might even start him at 11, although a tad retro. I'd also start George to make sure lineout functions well and bring Dan on when Italy are tiring (hopefully).

[Mikey Brown]

Whoops. Agreed it’s a bit harsh. He’s a useful bench option, particularly with a 6:2, but it’s hardly a forward-thinking selection. I suppose if we’re back to thinking of wingers purely as kick chasers, and want an extra boot on the field, it is the pragmatic choice.

Ditto George, who I really like in this bench role. Bring him on if Dan is struggling, but let’s see who else can do the job as a starter.

If the margin is so tight that Dan’s throwing (for 55 rather than 25) is the deciding factor then a lot of other things are surely going wrong. I’d like to see him get a go with Chessum and the additional lineout option in the backrow too. If he goes badly and Wales continue to look good vs Scotland then sure, bring George back in.

I’m aware I’m making the exact opposite case on the SMB for keeping Dave Cherry in the starting team, but whatever. England should not be going in to this terrified of making errors against a side who just conceded 70 at home.

[Banquo]

Whoops. Agreed it’s a bit harsh. He’s a useful bench option, particularly with a 6:2, but it’s hardly a forward-thinking selection. I suppose if we’re back to thinking of wingers purely as kick chasers, and want an extra boot on the field, it is the pragmatic choice.

Ditto George, who I really like in this bench role. Bring him on if Dan is struggling, but let’s see who else can do the job as a starter.

If the margin is so tight that Dan’s throwing (for 55 rather than 25) is the deciding factor then a lot of other things are surely going wrong. I’d like to see him get a go with Chessum and the additional lineout option in the backrow too. If he goes badly and Wales continue to look good vs Scotland then sure, bring George back in.

I’m aware I’m making the exact opposite case on the SMB for keeping Dave Cherry in the starting team, but whatever. England should not be going in to this terrified of making errors against a side who just conceded 70 at home.

Fair points, but personally I think you should prepare for every game with due respect for the opposition. Frankly I wouldn’t currently bet on us trying to outdo Italy in try scoring . Wish we had their centres!!

[Mikey Brown]

Whoops. Agreed it’s a bit harsh. He’s a useful bench option, particularly with a 6:2, but it’s hardly a forward-thinking selection. I suppose if we’re back to thinking of wingers purely as kick chasers, and want an extra boot on the field, it is the pragmatic choice.

Ditto George, who I really like in this bench role. Bring him on if Dan is struggling, but let’s see who else can do the job as a starter.

If the margin is so tight that Dan’s throwing (for 55 rather than 25) is the deciding factor then a lot of other things are surely going wrong. I’d like to see him get a go with Chessum and the additional lineout option in the backrow too. If he goes badly and Wales continue to look good vs Scotland then sure, bring George back in.

I’m aware I’m making the exact opposite case on the SMB for keeping Dave Cherry in the starting team, but whatever. England should not be going in to this terrified of making errors against a side who just conceded 70 at home.

Fair points, but personally I think you should prepare for every game with due respect for the opposition. Frankly I wouldn’t currently bet on us trying to outdo Italy in try scoring . Wish we had their centres!!

I’m almost in that mindset of “I’ll take a loss if it means being rid of the coach” but with the centre pairing. Maybe seeing Brexoncello breaking through Slawrence a few times will do the job?

Realistically I think we’re waiting until the summer.

[p/d]

I’d take Marcus covering 9, Coka on bench as a point of difference and, to hell with it, Steward at 12. For the love god, anything!!!

[Spiffy]

Would be good to see the performers from the A game get a look in to show that pathway is working.

Lockett, Ojomoh and JVP probably the standouts. In for Tcurry (with Hill in from bench), Slade and Randall? I’d have Bcurry in for Earl too.

Sleightholme fortunate to get another go because Murley and Muir are injured and I don’t think Freeman is as effective on the left wing. Great finisher but rest of his game really needs polishing.

why would you promote those a teamers over longstanding senior squad members who didn't play/make the 23/6? esp Dingwall/Beard, and Coles/Martin next in line v Lockett.

Assume u mean Sleightholme needs polishing?

Is the national team somewhere to get it? Why not just drop him and pick an already-more-polished player. Or else take a punt on someone with a bit of X factor e.g. Hendy, Elliott or even Carpenter on the wing.(Or Carpenter at FB and Marcus Smith to wing, he's fast enough and has attacking skills). No matter what, FFS just change one or two little things to do something remotely imaginative. There is only so much stoge the whole set up and the supporters can take.

[Puja]

Would be good to see the performers from the A game get a look in to show that pathway is working.

Lockett, Ojomoh and JVP probably the standouts. In for Tcurry (with Hill in from bench), Slade and Randall? I’d have Bcurry in for Earl too.

Sleightholme fortunate to get another go because Murley and Muir are injured and I don’t think Freeman is as effective on the left wing. Great finisher but rest of his game really needs polishing.

why would you promote those a teamers over longstanding senior squad members who didn't play/make the 23/6? esp Dingwall/Beard, and Coles/Martin next in line v Lockett.

Assume u mean Sleightholme needs polishing?

Is the national team somewhere to get it? Why not just drop him and pick an already-more-polished player. Or else take a punt on someone with a bit of X factor e.g. Hendy, Elliott or even Carpenter on the wing.(Or Carpenter at FB and Marcus Smith to wing, he's fast enough and has attacking skills). No matter what, FFS just change one or two little things to do something remotely imaginative. There is only so much stoge the whole set up and the supporters can take.

Hang on! Ollie Sleightholme was the top try-scorer in the Prem last season, he's got lightning pace and a vicious sidestep, as well as being powerful in contact! Yes, he had a bad game in defence this weekend, but he's looked mustard in his previous England performances, and has scored 4 tries in 5 games, including some belters against Australia and South Africa.

Are we seriously, *seriously* discussing turfing him out for Elliot or Carpenter?!?! I don't exactly know what X-factor those two are supposed to have that Sleightholme doesn't, but gods below and everburning save them should they have one iffy defensive shift!

Utterly bizarre. In previous England regimes, Sleightholme would be the player "with a bit of X-factor" that fans were railing against the management for not picking!

Puja

[Oakboy]

why would you promote those a teamers over longstanding senior squad members who didn't play/make the 23/6? esp Dingwall/Beard, and Coles/Martin next in line v Lockett.

Assume u mean Sleightholme needs polishing?

Is the national team somewhere to get it? Why not just drop him and pick an already-more-polished player. Or else take a punt on someone with a bit of X factor e.g. Hendy, Elliott or even Carpenter on the wing.(Or Carpenter at FB and Marcus Smith to wing, he's fast enough and has attacking skills). No matter what, FFS just change one or two little things to do something remotely imaginative. There is only so much stoge the whole set up and the supporters can take.

Hang on! Ollie Sleightholme was the top try-scorer in the Prem last season, he's got lightning pace and a vicious sidestep, as well as being powerful in contact! Yes, he had a bad game in defence this weekend, but he's looked mustard in his previous England performances, and has scored 4 tries in 5 games, including some belters against Australia and South Africa.

Are we seriously, *seriously* discussing turfing him out for Elliot or Carpenter?!?! I don't exactly know what X-factor those two are supposed to have that Sleightholme doesn't, but gods below and everburning save them should they have one iffy defensive shift!

Utterly bizarre. In previous England regimes, Sleightholme would be the player "with a bit of X-factor" that fans were railing against the management for not picking!

Puja

Puja, you may be right about Sleightholme but I just can't see it. Yes, he has raw pace. Yes, he can finish if he is set up right. But, he just does not look 80-minute-comfortable in all aspects of the international game as I see it. I'd pick Roebuck ahead of him every time though neither cuts it in the company of IFW, Freeman or Arundell, IMO. I think I prefer Murley and I'd pick Daly ahead of him too.

[Scrumhead]

Arundell? He hasn’t done well in France and his flaws seem to have got worse rather than better. It would be very harsh to jettison Sleightholme for him.

However, I would give Murley another shot if he’s fit.

[Mellsblue]

Are we forgetting Murley’s huge mistakes vs Ireland. I’d say Sleightholme has more credit in the bank.
I’ve barely seen Arundell play for Racing, and surprised others have seen enough to form an opinion, so can’t comment on that.

[p/d]

I’d bin the haircut and ‘tache for Arundell. And I haven’t seen him play since he was kicking his heels at u18’s

[Danno]

3 caps as an international in a tactically bereft team and he's gotta go in favour of a player that Racing aren't interested in keeping