Argentina tour

[Oakboy]

Yeah. Same here. CCS, Curry and Willis for me.

I’m only leaving Underhill at home because I feel like we’d benefit more from giving the game time for Ben Curry, Pollock and/or Kenningham/Pepper. I feel a bit bad writing that because he always seems to get the hard end of those decisions despite being consistently excellent when he does play. If Ben Curry does go with the Lions, Underhill should 100% be the starting 7.

Yup, those 3 need more time in an England shirt.
Underhill needs a full pre-season; and neither he nor anyone else would learn anything by playing against Argentina & USA

We don’t care about actually trying to win in Argentina then? I’ll give you the USA but this Argentina team are excellent and winning 2-0 there whilst missing our lions would be an incredible achievement and statement. Considering the lions who will be missing, leaving Martin, Underhill and IFW at home (plus anyone else) as some have suggested would make a really tough assignment even harder.

I think the benefits to some players of a summer off and a proper pre-season leading to recovering club form and being available for the AIs outweigh the tour results. Don't forget that just about every Lions tour leads to serious injuries so we will probably be missing important players for the AIs.

The other factor is that the tour's main benefit is giving fringe players chances that they don't get in non-Lions years. In RWC-cycle terms this is more or less their last shot.

[Scrumhead]

Agreed.

I also don’t think taking Ben Curry over Underhill is likely to be the difference between winning or not.

Martin wasn’t great in the summer or at the start of the 6N. He’s got massive potential but he won’t achieve that if he doesn’t get a proper opportunity to get himself physically right and on his recent form, he won’t be hugely missed.

[Danno]

Also agreed. We have enough riches in the backrow that we can afford to roll the dice to see who steps up. Burry will probably be there and he's been immense so I'm not worried.

Then Pepper/CCS Plus Willis, probably Pollock on the bench. Not a bad unit

[Mellsblue]

Also playing the US on the way home so that may influence the makeup of the squad.

[Which Tyler]

I still don't see the point of picking Ojomoh - he's not especially big or fast or skillful or elusive that I can see and Bath continually pick him behind Lawrence, Butt, and Redpath

That's still not true - however many times you repeat it

[FKAS]

Agreed.

I also don’t think taking Ben Curry over Underhill is likely to be the difference between winning or not.

Martin wasn’t great in the summer or at the start of the 6N. He’s got massive potential but he won’t achieve that if he doesn’t get a proper opportunity to get himself physically right and on his recent form, he won’t be hugely missed.

The fact you are massively underselling Martin's ability aside he isn't going to "get his body right" he's already talked publicly about needing to manage his knee with prehab. That's going to be an ongoing thing for his career. It's also not his knee that kept him out of the side in the 6N. He had a shoulder injury and that was supposed to be short term so he should be back in for Tigers shortly, we'll see. If that keeps him out significantly then a rest period might be useful. If it's not serious then I imagine he'll probably be with the Lions as they'll likely take at least five locks.

[TheDasher]

Arundell has a contract for next season, no? So he’s eligible… I’d have him in front of OHC.

I agree that Kenningham is great, but that back row is insane.

Someone mentioned the Quins 12, but I don’t think throwing Waghorn in this early would be useful. Shame Anyanwu is leaving.

OHC has been in good form this season, he's become a real threat in the air and is back to scoring tries. I'd have him over Arundell who's not really set the world alight over in Racing.

People forget a lot of Arundell's highlights are from when he played 15. From what I've seen (quite a lot) of him, his issue on the wing is that he doesn't know it well enough, he doesn't go looking for work, doesn't get involved in the game. He's rapid, clearly, and in so many of his games in the age groups and at LI, he's carving up when counter attacking. He'll be an absolute handful if he plays for England and we get him the ball on the wing frequently, but we won't, let's be honest, so he'll have to work on getting into the game more. That being said I think wingers are changing a bit, they have to be so much better in the air these days, they're like wide receivers with kicks sometimes. Arundell is find under the high ball I think but just on the basis of what he's done so far, I think he'd be better off counter attacking from the middle of the field. He looks a Jason Robinson style 15 to me at this moment in many ways.

[Scrumhead]

Agreed.

I also don’t think taking Ben Curry over Underhill is likely to be the difference between winning or not.

Martin wasn’t great in the summer or at the start of the 6N. He’s got massive potential but he won’t achieve that if he doesn’t get a proper opportunity to get himself physically right and on his recent form, he won’t be hugely missed.

The fact you are massively underselling Martin's ability aside he isn't going to "get his body right" he's already talked publicly about needing to manage his knee with prehab. That's going to be an ongoing thing for his career. It's also not his knee that kept him out of the side in the 6N. He had a shoulder injury and that was supposed to be short term so he should be back in for Tigers shortly, we'll see. If that keeps him out significantly then a rest period might be useful. If it's not serious then I imagine he'll probably be with the Lions as they'll likely take at least five locks.

I don’t think I am?

I really rate Martin but I really don’t think he was at his best in the AIs or 6N. That’s not underselling his ability, it’s a comment on his form.

If he’s fit and firing he’s a great asset to have. If he’s struggling, quite understandably he’s not.

[Stom]

Arundell has a contract for next season, no? So he’s eligible… I’d have him in front of OHC.

I agree that Kenningham is great, but that back row is insane.

Someone mentioned the Quins 12, but I don’t think throwing Waghorn in this early would be useful. Shame Anyanwu is leaving.

OHC has been in good form this season, he's become a real threat in the air and is back to scoring tries. I'd have him over Arundell who's not really set the world alight over in Racing.

People forget a lot of Arundell's highlights are from when he played 15. From what I've seen (quite a lot) of him, his issue on the wing is that he doesn't know it well enough, he doesn't go looking for work, doesn't get involved in the game. He's rapid, clearly, and in so many of his games in the age groups and at LI, he's carving up when counter attacking. He'll be an absolute handful if he plays for England and we get him the ball on the wing frequently, but we won't, let's be honest, so he'll have to work on getting into the game more. That being said I think wingers are changing a bit, they have to be so much better in the air these days, they're like wide receivers with kicks sometimes. Arundell is find under the high ball I think but just on the basis of what he's done so far, I think he'd be better off counter attacking from the middle of the field. He looks a Jason Robinson style 15 to me at this moment in many ways.

Then pick him as the backup 15 behind Field Marshall Furbank.

[francoisfou]

Then pick him as the backup 15 behind Field Marshall Furbank.

Field Marshal? That’s rapid promotion, cos last time I heard he was a mere Flight Lieutenant!

[FKAS]

Then pick him as the backup 15 behind Field Marshall Furbank.

Field Marshal? That’s rapid promotion, cos last time I heard he was a mere Flight Lieutenant!

Absence from action increases your reputation clearly.

[Puja]

I still don't see the point of picking Ojomoh - he's not especially big or fast or skillful or elusive that I can see and Bath continually pick him behind Lawrence, Butt, and Redpath

That's still not true - however many times you repeat it

Apologies - I completely missed your post refuting me the last time I said it.

For "some of that is injury", try "all of that is injury"
Because he's a better rugby player than Butt - and is selected ahead of Butt for Bath.
The only time this season that Butt has started and Ojomoh hasn't was against La Rochelle - in Max's 2nd match back from injury (having flared up during his 1st match back).

I had genuinely thought Butt had overtaken him, but I'll absolutely defer to your greater knowledge of Bath's team selections and the timing of his injuries. Is he generally rated below Redpath in selection or was I wrong on that one as well? (Or is it unknown because they've never both been uninjured at the same time?)

Puja

[SixAndAHalf]

OHC has been in good form this season, he's become a real threat in the air and is back to scoring tries. I'd have him over Arundell who's not really set the world alight over in Racing.

I may be being unfair but I don't see OHC as international class. I feel like we have good wing depth with Roebuck, IFW, Daly, Sleightholme and Murley (as well as Freeman) so would prefer to invest in the upside of Arundell, Elliott and Hendy.

I agree with the later post noting that Arundell's best position is likely 15 - will he get much chance to play there for Bath with De Glanville and Carreras for competition?

[SixAndAHalf]

We don’t care about actually trying to win in Argentina then? I’ll give you the USA but this Argentina team are excellent and winning 2-0 there whilst missing our lions would be an incredible achievement and statement. Considering the lions who will be missing, leaving Martin, Underhill and IFW at home (plus anyone else) as some have suggested would make a really tough assignment even harder.

I would take them if 100% but I wouldn't play them through a minor injury as it appeared Martin has been throughout this season.

[Which Tyler]

Is he generally rated below Redpath in selection or was I wrong on that one as well? (Or is it unknown because they've never both been uninjured at the same time?)

Honestly, it's hard to tell.

Over the 5 seasons they've both been at Bath, they've started about the same number of matches (61 v 55) - obviously Cam was way ahead in development on arrival.
This season, they've only both been "fit" in December, and even then, both were being managed, though Cam got fitter earlier, and Max's injury flared up, whilst Cam got re-injured at the end of that little run.
Last season, Cam started 17 whilst Max started 15 - but Cam was starting the bigger games (from memory, Max missed January with injury, and again missed the last month or so of the season, Cam was injury free).
The season before last Cam started 14, Max started 12.
The year before that was Cam's major injury, and Max's breakthrough season.

Instinctively, Cam's ahead, but it's really not by much.
Cam's also a really good player with 14 international caps (would be more if not for Tuipulotu), who'd walk into the England team had he chosen us.

We're not even likely to find out over the next few weeks, without Lawrence, they'll probably start alongside each other - although either with Butt is probably a better balanced midfield, even if both are higher quality players.

None of which is to say that Ojomoh is an obviously overlooked international class centre who's ready made to fit into England's midfield. He isn't that. But he's promising, and challenging on merit. Being behind 1 and probably slightly behind another international centre for his club doesn't change that - it means he's got an excellent learning environment, and a hell of a task on his hands, if he wants to be clear first choice at club level. He simply hasn't been selected behind Will Butt (though this may change).


In terms of an England summer series including an "England XV" match, 2 v Argentina and 1 v USA whilst the main men are away on the Lions, seems exactly the right time to be trying out promising players who are challenging on merit.
Personally, I'd take all 3 of Dingwall, Atkinson and Ojomoh - especially as 2 of them are comfortable in both centre slots. I'd like to add Ollie Hartley to that list, but he's the bit further back in his development and may have to wait until post 2027 now (hopefully not)

[Scrumhead]

It’ll be interesting to see how Lawrence’s injury influences Bath’s midfield selection.

In some respects it’s the ideal opportunity for Ojomoh but if they want to replace Lawrence’s physicality I suspect it might work in Butt’s favour instead. Lawrence isn’t used as a battering ram by any means, but he does give them a bit of directness/punch rather than Ojomoh and Redpath’s more subtle approach.

I already shared my squad but to elaborate a little, I’d be looking at the Dingwall/Beard partnership that worked well in the Australia A game. I’d take Atkinson and Ojomoh but I think they’re most likely competing with Dingwall for the 12 shirt. Any combination of Dingwall, Ojomoh and Atkinson all feels a little samey? Beard is the only one that offers a more direct style.

Not sure on where all of this leaves Lozowski. He was called up and now he’s all but forgotten. Probably should think carefully about becoming Italian.

[FKAS]

OHC has been in good form this season, he's become a real threat in the air and is back to scoring tries. I'd have him over Arundell who's not really set the world alight over in Racing.

I may be being unfair but I don't see OHC as international class. I feel like we have good wing depth with Roebuck, IFW, Daly, Sleightholme and Murley (as well as Freeman) so would prefer to invest in the upside of Arundell, Elliott and Hendy.

Last season I'd have agreed on OHC last season. This season he's turned a corner. He's joint second on the Prem try scoring charts, ahead of all of those you've named. He's also become very good in the air when chasing kicks. Roebuck and maybe Daly are stronger but OHC is better than the others on the kick chase.

I'm yet to be sold on Murley or Sleightholme at international level and Daly is towards the end of his career. I like Hendy but Arundell is all hype and Elliott is progressing nicely but not ready yet. I'd not throw a big and quick winger who's only 26 on the trash heap just yet.

[SixAndAHalf]

OHC has been in good form this season, he's become a real threat in the air and is back to scoring tries. I'd have him over Arundell who's not really set the world alight over in Racing.

I may be being unfair but I don't see OHC as international class. I feel like we have good wing depth with Roebuck, IFW, Daly, Sleightholme and Murley (as well as Freeman) so would prefer to invest in the upside of Arundell, Elliott and Hendy.

Last season I'd have agreed on OHC last season. This season he's turned a corner. He's joint second on the Prem try scoring charts, ahead of all of those you've named. He's also become very good in the air when chasing kicks. Roebuck and maybe Daly are stronger but OHC is better than the others on the kick chase.

I'm yet to be sold on Murley or Sleightholme at international level and Daly is towards the end of his career. I like Hendy but Arundell is all hype and Elliott is progressing nicely but not ready yet. I'd not throw a big and quick winger who's only 26 on the trash heap just yet.

Thanks - good to get a perspective from someone who has watched him more regularly.

I see Arundell as having a really high ceiling - he's had a difficult year this season (as has everyone at Racing) but until then he had ticked every box you would want from a young player in their development and he's still only 22. I would ideally like to see him at full back but I feel like Bath have signed him to play wing.

[SixAndAHalf]

I already shared my squad but to elaborate a little, I’d be looking at the Dingwall/Beard partnership that worked well in the Australia A game. I’d take Atkinson and Ojomoh but I think they’re most likely competing with Dingwall for the 12 shirt. Any combination of Dingwall, Ojomoh and Atkinson all feels a little samey? Beard is the only one that offers a more direct style.

Not sure on where all of this leaves Lozowski. He was called up and now he’s all but forgotten. Probably should think carefully about becoming Italian.

I'd like to see Beard play if only because he has been in the squad for a while now so it seems a waste of development time not to give him a chance!

Your point on the similarity between Dingwall, Ojomoh and Atkinson is why I believe there is an opportunity for a physical / athletic bolter in the centre - based on last season's trajectory I expected Wimbush to be on the radar. I appreciate he has had injuries but seen he's been playing for Exeter Uni - is that just to get him game time or is he out of favour?

[Mikey Brown]

Yep, I think that’s one of my (maybe unfair) reservations about Ojomoh. Whilst he looked very athletic, fast, agile, decent hands etc. I can’t see any sort of USP.

Maybe I’ve not seen enough to know if he can create space for others in the way Atkinson/Dingwall do, or consistently threaten the line with his running.

I struggle to see him ousting Redpath when fit (which is a huge question mark, to be fair) and it looks like he and Redpath may both be shunted to 13 a fair bit while Lawrence is out. Incidentally it’s weird for Redpath to now be fourth choice 12 for Scotland, when I’d very happily have him in the England 12 shirt.

I’d really like to see Beard given a go too. Shame Northmore seems to have missed his chance, but he just can’t be relied on to stay fit either.

[Scrumhead]

I’m coming round to the idea of leaving Marcus Smith at home for this tour. He’s been out of sorts since the 6N which has almost certainly ended any vague hopes he might have had of the Lions tour and summer of being dicked about by England isn’t going to do him any favours. For his sake, I’d rather he gets the time off.

I’m expecting Fin Smith to go with the Lions.

Ford might have an outside shot of a Lions call-up, but if not he’s the obvious choice on form. Marcus does not need to go as a 15.

Not sure what the situation is with Furbank but Steward, Carpenter and Hendy have been playing well which gives us plenty of options at fullback.

[Danno]

Bit of wistful thinking there Scrumhead, but I agree. A holiday would do him the world of good. Alas if Finn is offski there's no way Marcus doesn't tour outside an injury.

Unfortunately he's just going to one contintent or the other unless the limp today was something serious. Hooray. [/s]

[Oakboy]

We are blessed with three good FHs. Would any of them benefit from touring Argentina? Arguably, if he's the future, Fin might, I suppose, if just to make progress with a different SH from Mitchell.

Based on current form, Ford should be the Lions back-up to Russell.

A summer off for Marcus would make sense, especially in terms of lining up No 4 in the ranking. Who though?

[fivepointer]

Actually it might do him good to play. Away from the main focus of a Lions tour with pressure off a touch it might free him up a bit. He does look like he's carrying the world on his shoulders right now. Fact is if Fin goes with the Lions I cant see us leaving Marcus at home. Ford has a genuine chance of a Lions spot if form and class mean anything.
The wing spots are looking very interesting. Roebuck is a cert, then it becomes a very crowded field with Radwan making a strong case.

[Scrumhead]

We are blessed with three good FHs. Would any of them benefit from touring Argentina? Arguably, if he's the future, Fin might, I suppose, if just to make progress with a different SH from Mitchell.

Based on current form, Ford should be the Lions back-up to Russell.

A summer off for Marcus would make sense, especially in terms of lining up No 4 in the ranking. Who though?

We couldn’t afford to be without all three. Based upon the England A squads Charlie Atkinson is next in line but I’m not at all convinced he’s a test level 10.

If Benson gets a few more games before the season ends, I could see him being in the A squad (possibly leapfrogging Atkinson).

Donoghue at Bath has come from nowhere and is looking very handy, but would be an A squad pick for me at the most right now.

Usually the U20s get a mention but I just eon’t think Coen or Bellamy are even close to being good enough.

Actually it might do him good to play. Away from the main focus of a Lions tour with pressure off a touch it might free him up a bit. He does look like he's carrying the world on his shoulders right now. Fact is if Fin goes with the Lions I cant see us leaving Marcus at home. Ford has a genuine chance of a Lions spot if form and class mean anything.
The wing spots are looking very interesting. Roebuck is a cert, then it becomes a very crowded field with Radwan making a strong case.

Yeah - wing is looking very interesting. OHC and Radwan are definitely pressing their claims, Ibitoye is back and firing and while Brown-Bampoe is very raw, his try scoring record in a poor side is excellent. Murley should still be in the picture and Hendy might also be considered a as winger too.