Argentina tour

[Banquo]

You rate Ojomoh over Atkinson and Dingwall?

Yes - neither of the latter two remotely inspiring from what I’ve seen of them at test level - would like to see a 12 Pollock 13 Ojomoh (or even vice Versa) given a go!

To be fair Atkinson has been utterly anonymous at test level!

[Puja]

You rate Ojomoh over Atkinson and Dingwall?

Yes - neither of the latter two remotely inspiring from what I’ve seen of them at test level - would like to see a 12 Pollock 13 Ojomoh (or even vice Versa) given a go!

To be fair Atkinson has been utterly anonymous at test level!

I've watched England dozens of times and it's like he's not even on the pitch!

It seems that there is a mistrust of pace at 6,7,8 ...they are quick...ergo back.

This hits the nail on the head, I think. We've become so unused to having players who have outlandish skills or talents, especially in the forwards, that we feel the need to temper our enthusiasm and understate them, dragging their exceptionality down by declaring them an out of place back, who therefore can't possibly have the proper core forwards skills.

A luxury giraffe, if you will.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Yes - neither of the latter two remotely inspiring from what I’ve seen of them at test level - would like to see a 12 Pollock 13 Ojomoh (or even vice Versa) given a go!

To be fair Atkinson has been utterly anonymous at test level!

I've watched England dozens of times and it's like he's not even on the pitch!

It seems that there is a mistrust of pace at 6,7,8 ...they are quick...ergo back.

This hits the nail on the head, I think. We've become so unused to having players who have outlandish skills or talents, especially in the forwards, that we feel the need to temper our enthusiasm and understate them, dragging their exceptionality down by declaring them an out of place back, who therefore can't possibly have the proper core forwards skills.

A luxury giraffe, if you will.

Puja

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

[jngf]

You mad fuck, but I admire the ambition!

I promise I didn’t vote Reform

[Mikey Brown]

To be fair Atkinson has been utterly anonymous at test level!

I've watched England dozens of times and it's like he's not even on the pitch!

It seems that there is a mistrust of pace at 6,7,8 ...they are quick...ergo back.

This hits the nail on the head, I think. We've become so unused to having players who have outlandish skills or talents, especially in the forwards, that we feel the need to temper our enthusiasm and understate them, dragging their exceptionality down by declaring them an out of place back, who therefore can't possibly have the proper core forwards skills.

A luxury giraffe, if you will.

Puja

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

[Oakboy]

I've watched England dozens of times and it's like he's not even on the pitch!



This hits the nail on the head, I think. We've become so unused to having players who have outlandish skills or talents, especially in the forwards, that we feel the need to temper our enthusiasm and understate them, dragging their exceptionality down by declaring them an out of place back, who therefore can't possibly have the proper core forwards skills.

A luxury giraffe, if you will.

Puja

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

[Banquo]

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Its again possible to hold both thoughts...applaud the 90% yet want to fix the 10%, esp if the 10% is easy enough to fix, but also critical. Wilkinson would spring to mind on your 50 year piece as well. Also, its not entirely clear as yet that Pollock is up to international top tier speed (1 cap vs a pony wales), without incurring your 'don't diss the talent' wrath . If he stays injury free- sorry - I have no doubt he could become a fantastic international, in the Hooper mould.

[SixAndAHalf]

I see the appeal of Steward at 12 partly as I’m reluctant to jettison a player with test experience and evidence of a good level of performance. I think he could play there with the right skill sets around him (similar to MSmith at 15) but it would be preferable if he was playing there for Leicester.

[Puja]

I see the appeal of Steward at 12 partly as I’m reluctant to jettison a player with test experience and evidence of a good level of performance. I think he could play there with the right skill sets around him (similar to MSmith at 15) but it would be preferable if he was playing there for Leicester.

Steward's situation is hugely reminiscent of Tim Stimpson back in the day, who could play as well as he wanted at club level, but never stood a chance of a prolonged international career, because the team was set up around a completely different type of fullback and there was no way for him to swap in without changing how they played.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Tom Curry says hi.

Pollock is looking very impressive, but Curry was starting (and excelling) for England at 19 …

He wasn’t scoring breakaway individual tries and doing his best to wind everyone up, but his rise was equally impressive.

[Danno]

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Tom Curry says hi.

Pollock is looking very impressive, but Curry was starting (and excelling) for England at 19 …

He wasn’t scoring breakaway individual tries and doing his best to wind everyone up, but his rise was equally impressive.

Not to mention the perfect solution to one of the glaring deficiencies we had at the time

[Puja]

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

[Danno]

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

Perhaps not the best example given the number of caps, but I get the jist.

I'd suggest Youngs. He was outstanding until he started to look around like he was birdwatching at every ruck. AND I'd argue that was a coached gameplan that saw his his running, quickness and sniping killed off.

[Puja]

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

Perhaps not the best example given the number of caps, but I get the jist.

I'd suggest Youngs. He was outstanding until he started to look around like he was birdwatching at every ruck. AND I'd argue that was a coached gameplan that saw his his running, quickness and sniping killed off.

I dunno - I think he might be a perfect example. Looked to the manner born, dropped right into the imminent RWC-winning side and looked like the best player on the team... 10 caps.

Many a slip twixt cup and lip.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I guess the overall point is that there are at least a few in the past decade, let alone the ‘last 50yrs’.

Pollock may well end up being a generational talent, I’m just uncomfortable with that proclamation at this point. His impact has been sensational and worthy of the headlines, but this whole notion that we need to accept him as the messiah or be branded a heathen is irritating.

[p/d]

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

As does Arundell

[Oakboy]

I guess the overall point is that there are at least a few in the past decade, let alone the ‘last 50yrs’.

Pollock may well end up being a generational talent, I’m just uncomfortable with that proclamation at this point. His impact has been sensational and worthy of the headlines, but this whole notion that we need to accept him as the messiah or be branded a heathen is irritating.

I presume that is aimed at me - with some justification, I accept. Frankly, time will tell. Maybe, I am overexcited about an exceptional talent but I think your use of the word 'messiah' is at least as 'over-the-top' as any of my utterances.

It is many months now since Pollock's under-20 performances were reported on here in such glowing terms - way before I even saw him play. I subsequently saw what the fuss was about.

I'd make one appeal. Please don't spoil the pleasure in thinking and hoping that we may have a very top prospect. In 2002, we had, arguably, up to 6 or 7 very top standard players, since when we've rarely had more than one or two at any given time. Currently, we have one - Itoje - with Freeman and IFW probably having the talent to follow. Pollock may or may not prove good enough to join that company. My personal opinion is that he will. That would make four in the category, our highest number for 23 years. I am excited about that. If that comes across as anything but enthusiasm for the national team - sorry.

[p/d]

He is without doubt a hell of a player. Even more so considering his age. We should be excited and full of hope we will have a rugby superstar wearing the England jersey.
Not felt this about a player since a young Rory Clegg burst onto the scene.

[Mellsblue]

Not felt this about a player since a young Rory Clegg burst onto the scene.

Poor man’s Rob Miller but then who wasn’t.

[Scrumhead]

I guess the overall point is that there are at least a few in the past decade, let alone the ‘last 50yrs’.

Pollock may well end up being a generational talent, I’m just uncomfortable with that proclamation at this point. His impact has been sensational and worthy of the headlines, but this whole notion that we need to accept him as the messiah or be branded a heathen is irritating.

I presume that is aimed at me - with some justification, I accept. Frankly, time will tell. Maybe, I am overexcited about an exceptional talent but I think your use of the word 'messiah' is at least as 'over-the-top' as any of my utterances.

It is many months now since Pollock's under-20 performances were reported on here in such glowing terms - way before I even saw him play. I subsequently saw what the fuss was about.

I'd make one appeal. Please don't spoil the pleasure in thinking and hoping that we may have a very top prospect. In 2002, we had, arguably, up to 6 or 7 very top standard players, since when we've rarely had more than one or two at any given time. Currently, we have one - Itoje - with Freeman and IFW probably having the talent to follow. Pollock may or may not prove good enough to join that company. My personal opinion is that he will. That would make four in the category, our highest number for 23 years. I am excited about that. If that comes across as anything but enthusiasm for the national team - sorry.

Fair enough. Let’s all enjoy his rise and hope he can become a truly top player.

[Scrumhead]

As does Arundell

Yes … hence my hesitancy

[Banquo]

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

I'd suggest Youngs. He was outstanding until he started to look around like he was birdwatching at every ruck. AND I'd argue that was a coached gameplan that saw his his running, quickness and sniping killed off.

yus. And never learning to pass quickly and accurately left to right, yet still earning a million caps. Like Faz tbh

[Banquo]

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

Perhaps not the best example given the number of caps, but I get the jist.

I'd suggest Youngs. He was outstanding until he started to look around like he was birdwatching at every ruck. AND I'd argue that was a coached gameplan that saw his his running, quickness and sniping killed off.

I dunno - I think he might be a perfect example. Looked to the manner born, dropped right into the imminent RWC-winning side and looked like the best player on the team... 10 caps.

Many a slip twixt cup and lip.

Puja

Glandular fever, followed by Rokocoko in the post 2003 disaster zone, followed by ill timed injuries plus a weird lack of recognition from time to time. In 2002 he was absolutely superb, then....bad luck tbh.

[Danno]

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

I'd suggest Youngs. He was outstanding until he started to look around like he was birdwatching at every ruck. AND I'd argue that was a coached gameplan that saw his his running, quickness and sniping killed off.

yus. And never learning to pass quickly and accurately left to right, yet still earning a million caps. Like Faz tbh

Very much agreed

[Banquo]

I guess the overall point is that there are at least a few in the past decade, let alone the ‘last 50yrs’.

Pollock may well end up being a generational talent, I’m just uncomfortable with that proclamation at this point. His impact has been sensational and worthy of the headlines, but this whole notion that we need to accept him as the messiah or be branded a heathen is irritating.

aye. Though I do worry that all the hype isn't great for a young lad, especially one about whom its been noted that the only barrier to him being top notch is/was attitude. But as above, he looks like he could be our version of Michael Hooper, possibly better.