Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 1:21 pm
Yeah. A season or two playing horribly out of position is probably the best thing for their development.
This out of position concept seems to be less sacrosanct when utility skills are looking more and more valuable - or just because club rugby plays Pollock at 7 doesn’t imply England should do too come what may imo. Added to that Pollock has yet to demonstrate conclusively that he’s a better openside option than any of Curry x 2 or Earl - and that’s before we look at tried and tested world class openside options ( Underhill and Jack Willis) as well as more contemporary age group players,notably Pepper.
I agree with most of the second part. It’s totally possible he would take to the responsibilities of a centre with ease, but there’s a huge chance it would be an unnecessary spanner in the works of his development.
I just don’t see who it’s benefiting, as opposed to letting him do his thing and fight his way ahead of the competition in the back row.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 5:01 pm
Clearly that needed some italics or emojis or something.
Nah- obviously it’s possible, but very very long odds. Or maybe Saints would be keen on the …’you know that potentially world class 7 you have, do you mind not playing your actual pretty good centres in midfield and give him a go?’
Doris’ injury might well have further implications for England. As well as Pollock’s potential inclusion as a bolter, I’d now give Tom Willis a pretty decent chance of making the cut. I’d imagine it’s probably a three way choice between Willis, Faletau and Dempsey.
If Willis, Earl and Pollock all go with the Lions, who plays 8? I would have been interested in taking Fisilau but in he’s injured so it’s probably Dombrandt or Barbeary …
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 7:04 pm
Anyway … changing the subject.
Doris’ injury might well have further implications for England. As well as Pollock’s potential inclusion as a bolter, I’d now give Tom Willis a pretty decent chance of making the cut. I’d imagine it’s probably a three way choice between Willis, Faletau and Dempsey.
If Willis, Earl and Pollock all go with the Lions, who plays 8? I would have been interested in taking Fisilau but in he’s injured so it’s probably Dombrandt or Barbeary …
That's quite a bleak situation. I hope Willis doesn't go, I want him starting tests as often as possible and I can easily see Earl, Faletau getting the nod over him. I also think Argentina are a better side to play against than Aus (thank you Captain Obvious).
Plus with Earl likely away he gets a chance to show what he can do from the 8 position full time as a power carrier(Earl was packing down there at a lot of attacking scrums). I really think he's got more to gain from the Arg tour (and so does Eng)
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 7:04 pm
Anyway … changing the subject.
Doris’ injury might well have further implications for England. As well as Pollock’s potential inclusion as a bolter, I’d now give Tom Willis a pretty decent chance of making the cut. I’d imagine it’s probably a three way choice between Willis, Faletau and Dempsey.
If Willis, Earl and Pollock all go with the Lions, who plays 8? I would have been interested in taking Fisilau but in he’s injured so it’s probably Dombrandt or Barbeary …
Difficult one that. I don't think we'll gain much from seeing Dombrandt, as he'll do his usual job of looking great at a lower level. CCS is a possibility, but I'm probably more interested in using this tour to try and develop him as a lock option. The only one we'd learn much from is Barbeary and I'm not sure how close he realistically will ever get to an international place in normal circumstances.
Odd to be so dismissive of Barbeary given how much he was hyped through age groups.
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 7:04 pm
Anyway … changing the subject.
Doris’ injury might well have further implications for England. As well as Pollock’s potential inclusion as a bolter, I’d now give Tom Willis a pretty decent chance of making the cut. I’d imagine it’s probably a three way choice between Willis, Faletau and Dempsey.
If Willis, Earl and Pollock all go with the Lions, who plays 8? I would have been interested in taking Fisilau but in he’s injured so it’s probably Dombrandt or Barbeary …
Odd to be so dismissive of Barbeary given how much he was hyped through age groups.
Puja
Aye, even accounting for the 'will he, won't he' between hooker and no. 8, and some injuries he still just isn't demanding selection. Seems to fade out of games at times, possibly in line with the strength of his perm that week like a weird Samson
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 7:04 pm
Anyway … changing the subject.
Doris’ injury might well have further implications for England. As well as Pollock’s potential inclusion as a bolter, I’d now give Tom Willis a pretty decent chance of making the cut. I’d imagine it’s probably a three way choice between Willis, Faletau and Dempsey.
If Willis, Earl and Pollock all go with the Lions, who plays 8? I would have been interested in taking Fisilau but in he’s injured so it’s probably Dombrandt or Barbeary …
Difficult one that. I don't think we'll gain much from seeing Dombrandt, as he'll do his usual job of looking great at a lower level. CCS is a possibility, but I'm probably more interested in using this tour to try and develop him as a lock option. The only one we'd learn much from is Barbeary and I'm not sure how close he realistically will ever get to an international place in normal circumstances.
Odd to be so dismissive of Barbeary given how much he was hyped through age groups.
Puja
Without being unkind, Alfie was always the big lad with skills through age groups. When you hit man’s rugby, they are all big lads, and some with skills. It’s why a lot said his talents would pay off more at hooker if he was up for it, as indeed did the much maligned Eddie Jones. It’s not being dismissive, it’s about someone who isn’t guaranteed a start at his club. Tho Ted Hill is in the same boat and frankly has some usps that need using.
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 8:14 pm
‘Like a weird Samson’
As much as I love Dombrandt, I don’t think he’s going to make at a test level and I don’t see a huge amount to gain by picking him.
100% agree that touring with England would be far better for Willis but I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to see him getting a Lions call.
I hadn’t really thought about CCS at 8 but in the nuclear scenario of Earl, Willis an Pollock all going with the Lions, he’d probably be the best bet.
It'd absolutely be CCS IMO. Real shame about Fisilau - I had him earmarked for the tour for sure. Really exciting player.
But I'm not concerned about back row, even with injuries. Even in the scenario we lose both Willis's both Currys, Pollock, and Earl, we have:
CCS
Ted Hill
Guy Pepper
Kenningham
Pearson
Underhill
Barbeary
Dombrandt
I'm sure I've missed some too. I'm less keen on some than others, but you can absolutely make a good group out of that, and I think thre's a 0% change all the above will tour - there's just not room even in the scenario that they deserved it. Of all the areas of the pitch to be worried about, back row isn't the one to focus on.
Last edited by TheNomad on Wed May 07, 2025 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 8:02 am
Cant see 4 or 5 English back rowers with the Lions. Wouldnt surprise me if Earl and B Curry arent selected, and Willis is probably an outside bet.
Underhill will go to Argentina i'd imagine. Dombrandt is a possibility and i think Jack Clement has made a case for going.
If Jack Willis is selected, might there be only one other English back rower in Aus (presumably Tom Curry)?
fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 8:02 am
Cant see 4 or 5 English back rowers with the Lions. Wouldnt surprise me if Earl and B Curry arent selected, and Willis is probably an outside bet.
Underhill will go to Argentina i'd imagine. Dombrandt is a possibility and i think Jack Clement has made a case for going.
If Jack Willis is selected, might there be only one other English back rower in Aus (presumably Tom Curry)?
Doris shoulder surgery, Matt Fagerson injured. Looking increasingly likely that TWillis will get a shot with the Lions.
He's not pressing any England bells - sure, because of form.
He's "not guaranteed a start" in the same way that "looking after your players" is a thing that exists.
Last year, he started 17 of 22 matches, benched 5. 3 of those bench appearances were the week before a big match, and about having him at his freshest for those.
This year, he's started 19 of 22 matches. 2 of those bench appearances have been after a long streak of starts, and having a partial rest; and 1 was last week when JvG prioritised impact off the bench (and Coetzee wasn't available to provide it).
Of the last 2 years, Bath have played 48 "competitive" matches (so only excluding PRC pool stages).
Alfie started 33 of them; benched 8, and missed 2 for a ban, and 5 for R&R.
"Pollock began this season with just one Premiership appearance to his name. His precipitous climb towards the top shows no sign of stopping though.
The 20-year-old has scored more tries and beaten more defenders than any other forward in the Champions Cup this season. He has made more tackles and secured more turnovers than any other player full stop.
"Previously I thought maybe the Lions had come too soon for him," said former England scrum-half Danny Care on Rugby Union Weekly.
"But watching that win over Leinster, how can you not take him?
"He looked better, in every aspect, than one of the best Ireland back rows ever.
"He is an 80-minute player. To be at that level mentally and physically, in a Test match-level environment is superb.
"I like everything this kid is about.
"I'm not sure if he would start, but how good would he be for competition on that tour?
"Lob him into a midweek team and if you picked him for Test side, he wouldn't look out of place."
"Farrell can't not pick him," agreed Horgan.
"Pollock was phenomenal at the weekend. It was as good a performance as I have seen in a long time.
"He doesn't know how to be bad and he will bring crazy enthusiasm - and for that reason I think he will be picked."
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 10:57 am
He's not pressing any England bells - sure, because of form.
He's "not guaranteed a start" in the same way that "looking after your players" is a thing that exists.
Last year, he started 17 of 22 matches, benched 5. 3 of those bench appearances were the week before a big match, and about having him at his freshest for those.
This year, he's started 19 of 22 matches. 2 of those bench appearances have been after a long streak of starts, and having a partial rest; and 1 was last week when JvG prioritised impact off the bench (and Coetzee wasn't available to provide it).
Of the last 2 years, Bath have played 48 "competitive" matches (so only excluding PRC pool stages).
Alfie started 33 of them; benched 8, and missed 2 for a ban, and 5 for R&R.
Ok, could have just gone with he is mainly a first choice starter but you’ve comprehensively made your point , I was wrong in my perception.
I did have my own look, and it’s pretty clear his minutes are managed tightly in general.
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 11:41 am
Ok, could have just gone with he is mainly a first choice starter but you’ve comprehensively made your point , I was wrong in my perception.
I did have my own look, and it’s pretty clear his minutes are managed tightly in general.
My head was in the "what can be asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence" - but for some reason, I'd put myself in the assertion phase, not the refutation phase - so went looking for evidence...
Yes, my brain is weird - why do you ask?
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 11:41 am
Ok, could have just gone with he is mainly a first choice starter but you’ve comprehensively made your point , I was wrong in my perception.
I did have my own look, and it’s pretty clear his minutes are managed tightly in general.
My head was in the "what can be asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence" - but for some reason, I'd put myself in the assertion phase, not the refutation phase - so went looking for evidence...
Yes, my brain is weird - why do you ask?
I like someone bringing receipts (not least because I learn things, like I did when you schooled me on my Butt confusion). It's one of the reasons I enjoy doing the m-b-ms, so that we can have some actual facts about things as well as opinions.
...speaking of which, I still owe you all the last 20 minutes of the Wales game, don't I? I'll see if I can knock that out this week - things've finally stopped happening on top of each other for a short period of time!
p/d wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 12:59 pm
God I hope the Lions ignore him and he tours with England. Pollock that is not the curly haired sometimes plays sometimes doesn’t Bath 8
I see GRRM's been ruled out for the summer - along with Itoje and likely Chessum with the Lions.
So England, in Argentine, at lock...
Charlie Ewels and Johnny Hill for the magic moments?
or
Chandler Cunningham-Southand Ted Hill for the luxury giraffing?
