Argentina tour

[jngf]

Haven't really read the rest of the thread so apols if repeating anyone.

Happy with the props, at hooker I might take Blake over George.

Can't get onboard with CCS as a lock... might take Bamber as 4th choice if we're taking 4.

Back row, if he's fit, I'd take Pearson over Kenningham.

Side note, I think T Willis should be a lion, presumably he's not because he's new to intl rugby, but so's Pollock and T Willis has been phenomenal this year. Other than Conan, Farrell hasn't taken a big ball carrying No8. T Willis would hurt some Aussies and I think should've gone.

SHs look good, Ford and Donoghue for me with the Quins lad 3rd choice.

Radwan has to be in there, I'd say over Murley and maybe over OHC to be honest. I like OHC but I think Roebuck and Muir are both better and between those two and Freeman we have some big, strong wing options who are good in the air. Good to find another fire-cracker to back up IFW and Radwan is the man me thinks...

Steward has to be in - has had a tough run for England, he's so much better than he's shown at times, as we see for Tigers.

Hi Dasher, really interested to get your perspective as to why you think that’s the case? - I think if CCS’ paired with an expert lineout jumper/tactician in the other lock berth he would add real value - certainly see him as a step up from Martin who for me is really rather limited at test level and CCS offers much, much better carrying without much loss in physical presence.

I've said before that Martin hasn't proved himself yet, I'm with you on that - apart from occasionally melting someone he's doesn't do quite enough for me. With you on that one.

I want big, rangy locks that work bloody hard, dominate mauls in attack and defence, have great engines, can either soar high in the lineout or lift bloody high. CCS for me is a ball-carrier, he doesn't have a great engine, he doesn't seem to me to have a dominant tight game and I'm not sure he's a great ball player either. Chessum is a better player than CCS by a country mile in my view but he doesn't carry hard and looks lanky and ginger... I also think baring in mind Itoje will always play/start, having a 6'5 lock (Itoje) and a 6'4 lock (CCS) just ultimately seems a bit piddly too... Against the Boks or France in a WC Semi, I think you'd feel a little underpowered ultimately, there's a reason that no top tier nations field lock pairings of that size.

Personally I prefer Ted Hill to CCS at 6 too, I think CCS is an 8 ultimately.

Fair enough, I definately agree an Itoje, CCS pairing is too short, especially against the Boks and French. Agrer too that no.8 is probably the closest specialist positional fit for him though realistically I think that going forwards England will continue to use him as a utility player if I’m honest, if nothing else because he is both powerfull and versitile ( Farrell Snr dropped the ball in not selecting him for Lions imo). Agree too that Ted Hill looks a more comfortable fit at 6 ( though I’d want CCS there if a player like Earl or Pollock was starting at 8 )

[Scrumhead]

Late to the thread and agree with a good chunk of what’s been covered.

Just wanted to step in with an important observation on Isiekwe.

I was always a vocal critic of his as I felt he lacked impact and was a bit anonymous for a massive bloke, but then it was revealed he’d been playing with a heart condition. Given he’d was playing with a significant handicap for years, he’s done amazingly well to make it to this level and (from what I’ve seen recently), is playing some of the best rugby of his career. I wouldn’t have thought that’s a coincidence.

This was only a year or so ago so not exactly ancient history but it seems to have been entirely forgotten.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... cal%20best.

[Puja]

Late to the thread and agree with a good chunk of what’s been covered.

Just wanted to step in with an important observation on Isiekwe.

I was always a vocal critic of his as I felt he lacked impact and was a bit anonymous for a massive bloke, but then it was revealed he’d been playing with a heart condition. Given he’d was playing with a significant handicap for years, he’s done amazingly well to make it to this level and (from what I’ve seen recently), is playing some of the best rugby of his career. I wouldn’t have thought that’s a coincidence.

This was only a year or so ago so not exactly ancient history but it seems to have been entirely forgotten.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... cal%20best.

I absolutely had forgotten that! Very good point.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Fair play to the guy he's done remarkably well. Still dont think he should be in the England conversation.

[Scrumhead]

Context is key. I take ‘in the England conversation’ to be discussing him as a 5th/6th choice which I think is fair and accurate.

The only reason it’s more pertinent now is because our top three locks are unavailable.

He has been in good form this season though - particularly in disrupting opposition lineouts.

[Oakboy]

Assess the importance of the line-out and then relate it to our best operators. Like him or not, if the line-out is priority, Isiekwe has to be considered.

[Scrumhead]

For me, it’s Coles, Isiekwe, Clark and one other (possibly not it CCS and Hill are considered to be suitable cover).

Clark is the interesting one IMO. He’s a big lad who works hard and is solid in the set piece. Not flashy but makes others look good. Similar to Kruis in that respect.

But for a poorly timed injury, I think Batley would have been in the mix. In the first half of the season, I’d say he was the form lock in the league.

[fivepointer]

Batley's playing today. If he can pick up where he left off he should be in consideration. (big if of course)

Still think Ewels will be touring.

[Which Tyler]

Still think Ewels will be touring.

As for the last couple of his reprieves, his form deserves it; it's just that... he's had 2 last chances already, and been shown red on both of them

[FKAS]

Still think Ewels will be touring.

As for the last couple of his reprieves, his form deserves it; it's just that... he's had 2 last chances already, and been shown red on both of them

Could be the sort of character you want around the squad, particularly if the other locks are inexperienced. Even if he doesn't play he could be good for setting standards. I remember Chessum saying Ewels was a big help for him when he first got into the squad.

[Danno]

Still think Ewels will be touring.

As for the last couple of his reprieves, his form deserves it; it's just that... he's had 2 last chances already, and been shown red on both of them

It's fine, we'll have Ford to dig us out again

[Which Tyler]

NB: It's too early for him to go as anything other than an apprentice; and maybe a bench spot against the USA
Published back in Feb, but I missed it then.

EXCLUSIVE: Kepu Tuipulotu interview: 'The biggest thighs in rugby' on England's youth revolution, the famous cousins who made him cry and inspired a Lions dream ...and the truth about his very surprising middle name

[Puja]

NB: It's too early for him to go as anything other than an apprentice; and maybe a bench spot against the USA
Published back in Feb, but I missed it then.

EXCLUSIVE: Kepu Tuipulotu interview: 'The biggest thighs in rugby' on England's youth revolution, the famous cousins who made him cry and inspired a Lions dream ...and the truth about his very surprising middle name

I think the Welsh probably do have a point about us backing the law change on education years counting towards residency and then using our private school system to rinse them of their young talent. However, I am still very much in favour of giving him a cap off the bench against the USA to make sure he stays on our side.

Puja

[Danno]

NB: It's too early for him to go as anything other than an apprentice; and maybe a bench spot against the USA
Published back in Feb, but I missed it then.

EXCLUSIVE: Kepu Tuipulotu interview: 'The biggest thighs in rugby' on England's youth revolution, the famous cousins who made him cry and inspired a Lions dream ...and the truth about his very surprising middle name

I think the Welsh probably do have a point about us backing the law change on education years counting towards residency and then using our private school system to rinse them of their young talent. However, I am still very much in favour of giving him a cap off the bench against the USA to make sure he stays on our side.

Puja

[TONGUE FIRMLY IN CHEEK DISCLAIMER]

Why on earth are people orginally from the Pacific going to Wales

[Which Tyler]

Why on earth are people orginally from the Pacific going to Wales

They thought that the original South Wales would resemble New South Wales...

[Epaminondas Pules]

NB: It's too early for him to go as anything other than an apprentice; and maybe a bench spot against the USA
Published back in Feb, but I missed it then.

EXCLUSIVE: Kepu Tuipulotu interview: 'The biggest thighs in rugby' on England's youth revolution, the famous cousins who made him cry and inspired a Lions dream ...and the truth about his very surprising middle name

I think the Welsh probably do have a point about us backing the law change on education years counting towards residency and then using our private school system to rinse them of their young talent. However, I am still very much in favour of giving him a cap off the bench against the USA to make sure he stays on our side.

Puja

[TONGUE FIRMLY IN CHEEK DISCLAIMER]

Why on earth are people orginally from the Pacific going to Wales

For the weather

[FKAS]

I think the Welsh probably do have a point about us backing the law change on education years counting towards residency and then using our private school system to rinse them of their young talent. However, I am still very much in favour of giving him a cap off the bench against the USA to make sure he stays on our side.

Puja

[TONGUE FIRMLY IN CHEEK DISCLAIMER]

Why on earth are people orginally from the Pacific going to Wales

For the weather

Who needs sunshine when you can have year round drizzle.

His dad was playing in Wales when he was born, that's his link there. He was packed off to be educated in England, his dad play for Worcester at one point as well.

[SixAndAHalf]

https://archive.is/sRDQn

A good summary with the squad in line with most on here.

A few general observations from me:

- Locks wise I would take Clark and Coles then use Ted Hill / CCS as third choice. If Kpoku moves to Sale we can use him in the u20s then develop him as a third choice lock through to 2027.
- I’m sure many won’t like it but I’d take Slade as back up 10. With Exeter signing Ikitau it looks like he will be at 10 next season and he could easily go through there for another 5 years. He’s had a rough season but still is a really talented player who I wouldn’t jettison.
- I would also take Arundell if fit - with our depth I think we need to hunt for the high ceiling players and I see him as potentially world class.

[Epaminondas Pules]

https://archive.is/sRDQn

A good summary with the squad in line with most on here.

A few general observations from me:

- Locks wise I would take Clark and Coles then use Ted Hill / CCS as third choice. If Kpoku moves to Sale we can use him in the u20s then develop him as a third choice lock through to 2027.
- I’m sure many won’t like it but I’d take Slade as back up 10. With Exeter signing Ikitau it looks like he will be at 10 next season and he could easily go through there for another 5 years. He’s had a rough season but still is a really talented player who I wouldn’t jettison.
- I would also take Arundell if fit - with our depth I think we need to hunt for the high ceiling players and I see him as potentially world class.

Charlie Morgan's squad from that article:

Back three
Joe Carpenter* (Sale Sharks)
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints)
Will Muir* (Bath)
Cadan Murley (Harlequins)
Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers)
Centres
Seb Atkinson* (Gloucester)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, vice-captain)
Max Ojomoh* (Bath)
Oscar Beard* (Harlequins)
Joe Woodward* (Leicester Tigers)
Fly-halves
George Ford (captain)
Charlie Atkinson* (Gloucester)
Ciaran Donoghue* (Bath)
Scrum-halves
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears)
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers)
Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks)
Props
Fin Baxter (Harlequins)
Afo Fasogbon* (Gloucester)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)
Emmanuel Iyogun* (Northampton Saints)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks)
Asher Opoku-Fordjour (Sale Sharks)
Hookers
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons)
Theo Dan (Saracens)
Jamie George (Saracens, vice-captain)
Curtis Langdon (Northampton Saints)
Locks
Arthur Clark* (Gloucester)
Alex Coles (Northampton Saints)
Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Back row
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks)
Greg Fisilau* (Exeter Chiefs)
Emeka Ilione*(Leicester Tigers)
Ted Hill (Bath)
Guy Pepper* (Bath)
Jack Kenningham* (Harlequins)
Sam Underhill (Bath)
Tom Willis (Saracens)

[FKAS]

Might be a year early for Woodward and Ilione. OHC and Radwan I'd take over most of those wingers on current form.

[Puja]

https://archive.is/sRDQn

A good summary with the squad in line with most on here.

A few general observations from me:

- Locks wise I would take Clark and Coles then use Ted Hill / CCS as third choice. If Kpoku moves to Sale we can use him in the u20s then develop him as a third choice lock through to 2027.
- I’m sure many won’t like it but I’d take Slade as back up 10. With Exeter signing Ikitau it looks like he will be at 10 next season and he could easily go through there for another 5 years. He’s had a rough season but still is a really talented player who I wouldn’t jettison.
- I would also take Arundell if fit - with our depth I think we need to hunt for the high ceiling players and I see him as potentially world class.

Charlie Morgan's squad from that article:

I'd be happy if Morgan's squad was picked, although I agree with EP on Arundell. It's horribly unfair to Muir cause he is so good at Prem level, but I don't see him ever busting through past the cavalcade of wingers already in the box-seat. Arundell's probably not as good a winger now, but his natural talent means I can see him getting a starting shirt in the future.

Might be a year early for Woodward and Ilione. OHC and Radwan I'd take over most of those wingers on current form.

Agreed on Ilione - he needs to be starting for Leicester before we seriously talk about him for England.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Might be a year early for Woodward and Ilione. OHC and Radwan I'd take over most of those wingers on current form.

For pure pace, Radwan has impressed more than any other winger in recent weeks.

[fivepointer]

Interesting that Morgan has named Ilione. I've been impressed every time i've seen him play this season. He does have an athleticism that could work very well at the highest level.

Dont think Fisilau will be fit and surely there must be question marks over IFW, Furbank and Ojomoh.

[Mikey Brown]

I mean Radwan’s pace wasn’t ever in question. Seeing him take a high ball on the run was new though. Both him and OHC look more rounded players than on their last England outings.

Murley got a well timed hat-trick to at least get his name back in the mix, but what a slide for him from finally getting a shot as a 6 nations starter to now likely being behind Freeman, IFW, Roebuck, Sleightholme, OHC, Radwan, possibly fighting with Muir. Even if 3 of those are unavailable he might struggle.

I still don’t see why Arundell should jump the queue on any of those, but it makes sense Blackett would be keen to get an early look at him.

What is Illione’s main position? Primarily a 7?

[Scrumhead]

https://archive.is/sRDQn

A good summary with the squad in line with most on here.

A few general observations from me:

- Locks wise I would take Clark and Coles then use Ted Hill / CCS as third choice. If Kpoku moves to Sale we can use him in the u20s then develop him as a third choice lock through to 2027.
- I’m sure many won’t like it but I’d take Slade as back up 10. With Exeter signing Ikitau it looks like he will be at 10 next season and he could easily go through there for another 5 years. He’s had a rough season but still is a really talented player who I wouldn’t jettison.
- I would also take Arundell if fit - with our depth I think we need to hunt for the high ceiling players and I see him as potentially world class.

I agree on the first two points. I’d probably favour taking Slade as a back up 10 over Charlie Atkinson (who I don’t think is good enough) but ONLY in that capacity. Finding new centres is one of our top priorities and we’d learn nothing by picking him there.

I’m less convinced on Arundell. I’d be more open to the idea of taking him as a fullback than as a winger. Partly because it’s where he played his best rugby and partly because there are plethora of more deserving candidates for the wing berths. I don’t see a huge gain in rushing IFW back so I’d swap in Hassell-Collins, but otherwise I would take the same back three options Morgan chose.