Europe Out or In?

[Banquo]

This is a good little thread to get us going on the new board.

Personally, I'll vote in because I look at the absolute cockwombles who are telling you to vote out, and realise I detest every single one of them and all they stand for.

this. Total wankpuffins

[jared_7]

This is a good little thread to get us going on the new board.

Personally, I'll vote in because I look at the absolute cockwombles who are telling you to vote out, and realise I detest every single one of them and all they stand for.

this. Total wankpuffins

As opposed to the upstanding citizens telling you to vote in?

[Banquo]

This is a good little thread to get us going on the new board.

Personally, I'll vote in because I look at the absolute cockwombles who are telling you to vote out, and realise I detest every single one of them and all they stand for.

this. Total wankpuffins

As opposed to the upstanding citizens telling you to vote in?

its a good point. But....Gove, Farage, Galloway.....aargh.

[Tre]

This is a good little thread to get us going on the new board.

Personally, I'll vote in because I look at the absolute cockwombles who are telling you to vote out, and realise I detest every single one of them and all they stand for.

this. Total wankpuffins

As opposed to the upstanding citizens telling you to vote in?

You have a very good point, but it's hard to beat the Farage, Galloway, Gove, Johnson axis in perms of wankpuffinery

[Zhivago]

A question for those who want change from within. Why do you think that change, meaningful change, will happen? This massive renegotiation has yielded very little. Why do you think that would change in the future? A major nation deciding to leave might trigger something.

The fact that we haven't got the change we want is purely down to poor diplomacy.

[Sandydragon]

A question for those who want change from within. Why do you think that change, meaningful change, will happen? This massive renegotiation has yielded very little. Why do you think that would change in the future? A major nation deciding to leave might trigger something.

The fact that we haven't got the change we want is purely down to poor diplomacy.

There's a bit more to it than that.

[Billyfish]

Boris has chosen OUT. Doesn't change my opinion - I still think he's a self-serving oaf.

A cunning self-serving oaf though. Assuming it is not the sudden attack of conscience that he is making it out to be and that he is gunning for Cameron's job as we all know he is, then he must genuinely believe there is a chance of an out vote?

[Billyfish]

this. Total wankpuffins

As opposed to the upstanding citizens telling you to vote in?

You have a very good point, but it's hard to beat the Farage, Galloway, Gove, Johnson axis in perms of wankpuffinery

Perms of wankpuffinery? What?? What even is that?! Earth Wind & Fire perchance?!

Anyhoo, that's Dave's arguement too "Boris is now going hand in hand with Galloway & Farage." or some such. Not a pretty picture.

[Tre]

As opposed to the upstanding citizens telling you to vote in?

You have a very good point, but it's hard to beat the Farage, Galloway, Gove, Johnson axis in perms of wankpuffinery

Perms of wankpuffinery? What?? What even is that?! Earth Wind & Fire perchance?!

Anyhoo, that's Dave's arguement too "Boris is now going hand in hand with Galloway & Farage." or some such. Not a pretty picture.

Soz! terms of wankpuffinery, which makes much more sense.

[Banquo]

Boris has chosen OUT. Doesn't change my opinion - I still think he's a self-serving oaf.

A cunning self-serving oaf though. Assuming it is not the sudden attack of conscience that he is making it out to be and that he is gunning for Cameron's job as we all know he is, then he must genuinely believe there is a chance of an out vote?

He wins either way- Dave is going before the parliament is out, and it'll be earlier if we vote out- and he has positioned himself with the Eurosceptic tory grass roots in the event of a stay in. I think he thinks we'll stay, and that's what he really wants anyway- he's a Europhile.

[UGagain]

It gives more guarantees to me than I would get if the UK were not in the EU. As much as we talk about greater good, if a policy is going to have a drastic effect on myself, I'm going to take a strong interest in it. If the UK leaves the EU, there is a small chance I can have my workers rights revoked. I don't want to HAVE to take Hungarian citizenship for that.

As far as I understand, the ECHR isn't an EU institution, but is included as a criteria...

I don't know how it would affect your residency so fair enough.

You're lucky Hungary isn't in the eurozone but the economic performance of the EU in general is a testament to both the leadership's stupidity and its venality.

Is there any movement trying to push Hungary into the euro?

There was a criteria, which if met would mean the Euro. The government pretty much admitted to purposefully weakening the currency so those criteria were not met. Hungary will never be in the Eurozone under this government, but it remains to be seen who appears as an alternative, as this government have gone completely loopy.

The options are:

Neo nazis - now the second biggest party, ffs.
"Socialists" - in name only, of course. The most corrupt parties, as there are 3 of them, all of them identical in both policy and ineptitude.
Modern social democrats - with no finance and a tiny vote share.

Of those, the socialists would likely bring in the Euro, the others not.

But this is an aside.

I like the idea of a European body. But I don't like the current one. It needs change, but I would like to be able to make that change, not be foisted out (Hungary is too small and too much on the periphery to make a difference).

Well if Britain is going to change Europe for the better, then the concessions Cameron just got in making immigrants second class citizens that can be legally discriminated against, is an odd way to go about it.

Everything the UK seems to want are things that will weaken the EU if social cohesion and labour rights are the criteria.

The EU is a corporate tyranny every bit as much as the UK. And even less flexible and sane.

[Donny osmond]

Project Fear will swing into gear and rationality will lose.

Unfortunately for all of us, Project Fear is going to swing both ways in this one.

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I don't think the out camp has to resort to any fear mongering. They just need to point at what is actually happening in Europe.

It's insane. I just don't understand how anyone can look at that FUBAR management in Europe and not recoil in horror at what they've done.

It's hugely disappointing that Corbyn has become an inny. The 'left' is its own worst enemy.

The Tories are bad enough and economically clueless. But they're not as extreme as most of the European governments, even the notionally leftist ones.

Workers' rights my arse.

Project Fear needn't just be fear mongering about the EU. It could very well take the guise of
1. Make up some utter BS about how much money we'd make by leaving EU
2. Deride anyone who dares to question you with infantile chants of "scardey-cat scaredy-cat..."
3. Convince anyone dumb enough to listen to be scared of asking questions
4. Repeat steps 1-3 until people just swallow your lies without question.

It's how the SNP nearly sneaked the Indy ref, and I'm pretty sure we'll see the same tactics deployed here. Its Project Fear but done under s different guise... a rose by any other name and all that.

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[Donny osmond]

Unfortunately for all of us, Project Fear is going to swing both ways in this one.

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It's hugely disappointing that Corbyn has become an inny. The 'left' is its own worst enemy

We are Europeans, which means that the EU is where we belong. That it needs changing is obvious, but the answer is not to hide away on our little island, but rather to lead the way IN Europe to a better politics. We cannot take a leading European role from outside European politics, we must drive for the changes from within the union.

A union of countries is not inherently bad for workers, indeed it has given many workers the freedom to work where they like. What needs to happen is that this freedom does not impinge on others. Reform (or revolution) from WITHIN please.

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[UGagain]

Unfortunately for all of us, Project Fear is going to swing both ways in this one.

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I don't think the out camp has to resort to any fear mongering. They just need to point at what is actually happening in Europe.

It's insane. I just don't understand how anyone can look at that FUBAR management in Europe and not recoil in horror at what they've done.

It's hugely disappointing that Corbyn has become an inny. The 'left' is its own worst enemy.

The Tories are bad enough and economically clueless. But they're not as extreme as most of the European governments, even the notionally leftist ones.

Workers' rights my arse.

Project Fear needn't just be fear mongering about the EU. It could very well take the guise of
1. Make up some utter BS about how much money we'd make by leaving EU
2. Deride anyone who dares to question you with infantile chants of "scardey-cat scaredy-cat..."
3. Convince anyone dumb enough to listen to be scared of asking questions
4. Repeat steps 1-3 until people just swallow your lies without question.

It's how the SNP nearly sneaked the Indy ref, and I'm pretty sure we'll see the same tactics deployed here. Its Project Fear but done under s different guise... a rose by any other name and all that.

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Oh come off it. All the fear propaganda went the other way. As it will with the EU.

[Donny osmond]

I don't think the out camp has to resort to any fear mongering. They just need to point at what is actually happening in Europe.

It's insane. I just don't understand how anyone can look at that FUBAR management in Europe and not recoil in horror at what they've done.

It's hugely disappointing that Corbyn has become an inny. The 'left' is its own worst enemy.

The Tories are bad enough and economically clueless. But they're not as extreme as most of the European governments, even the notionally leftist ones.

Workers' rights my arse.

Project Fear needn't just be fear mongering about the EU. It could very well take the guise of
1. Make up some utter BS about how much money we'd make by leaving EU
2. Deride anyone who dares to question you with infantile chants of "scardey-cat scaredy-cat..."
3. Convince anyone dumb enough to listen to be scared of asking questions
4. Repeat steps 1-3 until people just swallow your lies without question.

It's how the SNP nearly sneaked the Indy ref, and I'm pretty sure we'll see the same tactics deployed here. Its Project Fear but done under s different guise... a rose by any other name and all that.

Sent from my XT1052 using Tapatalk

Oh come off it. All the fear propaganda went the other way. As it will with the EU.

It was very much 2 way traffic I'm afraid, as it will be with EU ref.

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[Sandydragon]

Project Fear needn't just be fear mongering about the EU. It could very well take the guise of
1. Make up some utter BS about how much money we'd make by leaving EU
2. Deride anyone who dares to question you with infantile chants of "scardey-cat scaredy-cat..."
3. Convince anyone dumb enough to listen to be scared of asking questions
4. Repeat steps 1-3 until people just swallow your lies without question.

It's how the SNP nearly sneaked the Indy ref, and I'm pretty sure we'll see the same tactics deployed here. Its Project Fear but done under s different guise... a rose by any other name and all that.

Sent from my XT1052 using Tapatalk

Oh come off it. All the fear propaganda went the other way. As it will with the EU.

It was very much 2 way traffic I'm afraid, as it will be with EU ref.

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Sadly true.

Out. Immigrants will kill us all of we don't leave.
In. We'll be poor and destitute unless we stay in, we simply can't manage on our own.

I simplify the message, but not by that much.

It's the same situation as in the Scottish Indy campaign. Those who want the status quo can point to how things are. Those who want change need to put some vision of how things will be improved by the change. I don't think anyone would deny that there would be disruption, so that disruption has to be worth it.

[Billyfish]

Project Fear needn't just be fear mongering about the EU. It could very well take the guise of
1. Make up some utter BS about how much money we'd make by leaving EU
2. Deride anyone who dares to question you with infantile chants of "scardey-cat scaredy-cat..."
3. Convince anyone dumb enough to listen to be scared of asking questions
4. Repeat steps 1-3 until people just swallow your lies without question.

It's how the SNP nearly sneaked the Indy ref, and I'm pretty sure we'll see the same tactics deployed here. Its Project Fear but done under s different guise... a rose by any other name and all that.

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Oh come off it. All the fear propaganda went the other way. As it will with the EU.

It was very much 2 way traffic I'm afraid, as it will be with EU ref.

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Zoinks! I suppose it's a perspective thing and all that, but having been neutral at first it was the ravings of the press (all the press) and the Westminster coalition that persuaded me that Independence was reasonable and possible and even preferable. The pro-indies sounded calm and logical by comparison. Most of the exaggeration and fear and lies came from one direction. And I don't mean the band.

[Donny osmond]

Oh come off it. All the fear propaganda went the other way. As it will with the EU.

It was very much 2 way traffic I'm afraid, as it will be with EU ref.

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Zoinks! I suppose it's a perspective thing and all that, but having been neutral at first it was the ravings of the press (all the press) and the Westminster coalition that persuaded me that Independence was reasonable and possible and even preferable. The pro-indies sounded calm and logical by comparison. Most of the exaggeration and fear and lies came from one direction. And I don't mean the band.

Like you say, perspective. For me it was the polar opposite.

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[UGagain]

It was very much 2 way traffic I'm afraid, as it will be with EU ref.

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Zoinks! I suppose it's a perspective thing and all that, but having been neutral at first it was the ravings of the press (all the press) and the Westminster coalition that persuaded me that Independence was reasonable and possible and even preferable. The pro-indies sounded calm and logical by comparison. Most of the exaggeration and fear and lies came from one direction. And I don't mean the band.

Like you say, perspective. For me it was the polar opposite.

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Sorry, can't see it. If anything the independence campaign was too meek and failed to counteract Project Fear.

They had the entire British establishment against them. They never were allowed to respond to the completely bogus 'share of the national debt' nonsense.

[Donny osmond]

It was very much 2 way traffic I'm afraid, as it will be with EU ref.

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Zoinks! I suppose it's a perspective thing and all that, but having been neutral at first it was the ravings of the press (all the press) and the Westminster coalition that persuaded me that Independence was reasonable and possible and even preferable. The pro-indies sounded calm and logical by comparison. Most of the exaggeration and fear and lies came from one direction. And I don't mean the band.

Like you say, perspective. For me it was the polar opposite.

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Thinking about it, it wasn't the polar opposite at all! I was as amused/dismayed as anyone by the hysteria coming off Better Together at times, but at least everyone could see it for what it was. The outright lies being broadcast, entirely unchallenged, by Salmond and his White Paper were worse, far far worse, IMO

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[Donny osmond]

Zoinks! I suppose it's a perspective thing and all that, but having been neutral at first it was the ravings of the press (all the press) and the Westminster coalition that persuaded me that Independence was reasonable and possible and even preferable. The pro-indies sounded calm and logical by comparison. Most of the exaggeration and fear and lies came from one direction. And I don't mean the band.

Like you say, perspective. For me it was the polar opposite.

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Sorry, can't see it. If anything the independence campaign was too meek and failed to counteract Project Fear.

They had the entire British establishment against them. They never were allowed to respond to the completely bogus 'share of the national debt' nonsense.

Ok don't want to turn this into an iScot indyref discussion, sorry i even brought it up now! but suffice it to say I disagree.... I'm not sure anyone has ever before accused Salmon's of being even remotely meek, let alone too meek to take on the Westminster establishment!!

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[Billyfish]

Like you say, perspective. For me it was the polar opposite.

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Sorry, can't see it. If anything the independence campaign was too meek and failed to counteract Project Fear.

They had the entire British establishment against them. They never were allowed to respond to the completely bogus 'share of the national debt' nonsense.

Ok don't want to turn this into an iScot indyref discussion, sorry i even brought it up now! but suffice it to say I disagree.... I'm not sure anyone has ever before accused Salmon's of being even remotely meek, let alone too meek to take on the Westminster establishment!!

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Yarp, we're going OT. Another thread praps. Suffice to say, when someone employs 'the fear' I now instinctively distrust them without recourse to logic.

[Donny osmond]

Sorry, can't see it. If anything the independence campaign was too meek and failed to counteract Project Fear.

They had the entire British establishment against them. They never were allowed to respond to the completely bogus 'share of the national debt' nonsense.

Ok don't want to turn this into an iScot indyref discussion, sorry i even brought it up now! but suffice it to say I disagree.... I'm not sure anyone has ever before accused Salmon's of being even remotely meek, let alone too meek to take on the Westminster establishment!!

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Yarp, we're going OT. Another thread praps. Suffice to say, when someone employs 'the fear' I now instinctively distrust them without recourse to logic.

True, but we need to look at who's bringing the fear and the response to it. E.g. just heard on the radio that some business leaders have said leaving the EU will be bad, but the response from the out camp is that DaveCam has bullied them into saying that. Seems to me that both sides are playing project fear there, do who to trust and why?

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[UGagain]

Like you say, perspective. For me it was the polar opposite.

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Sorry, can't see it. If anything the independence campaign was too meek and failed to counteract Project Fear.

They had the entire British establishment against them. They never were allowed to respond to the completely bogus 'share of the national debt' nonsense.

Ok don't want to turn this into an iScot indyref discussion, sorry i even brought it up now! but suffice it to say I disagree.... I'm not sure anyone has ever before accused Salmon's of being even remotely meek, let alone too meek to take on the Westminster establishment!!

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Salmond is one man FFS.

Perhaps you could give me an example that demonstrates any of the supposed good things that the EU does (from the propaganda of the innies).

Again, look at what they're doing.Not the flowery bullshit, the reality.

They are inflicting by design a depression on southern Europe. The entire EU economy is still smaller than it was in 2007. Manufacturing has collapsed. Investment has collapsed. There's about 24 million people unemployed and 10 of millions under-employed.

All by design.

You have governments stealing the valuables and money of refugees. You have governments openly collaborating with Nazis and fascists.

So sorry, but what is there there?

[Donny osmond]

Sorry, can't see it. If anything the independence campaign was too meek and failed to counteract Project Fear.

They had the entire British establishment against them. They never were allowed to respond to the completely bogus 'share of the national debt' nonsense.

Ok don't want to turn this into an iScot indyref discussion, sorry i even brought it up now! but suffice it to say I disagree.... I'm not sure anyone has ever before accused Salmon's of being even remotely meek, let alone too meek to take on the Westminster establishment!!

Sent from my XT1052 using Tapatalk

Salmond is one man FFS.

Perhaps you could give me an example that demonstrates any of the supposed good things that the EU does (from the propaganda of the innies).

Again, look at what they're doing.Not the flowery bullshit, the reality.

They are inflicting by design a depression on southern Europe. The entire EU economy is still smaller than it was in 2007. Manufacturing has collapsed. Investment has collapsed. There's about 24 million people unemployed and 10 of millions under-employed.

All by design.

You have governments stealing the valuables and money of refugees. You have governments openly collaborating with Nazis and fascists.

So sorry, but what is there there?

Am not defending the EU and don't think I've argued in defence of it anywhere? Apologies if I've mislead.

I'm as cynical as anyone about the EU (perhaps not as cynical as you mind) I just want an objective appraisal of what the UK could expect to be like if we vote out. I know what in looks like, I'm living it, so what will change if we vote out?

All these problems you've listed, can we realistically hope to avoid them happening here if we vote out? Seems to me the UK govt are as bad as anyone at kowtowing to big business, so what's to become of us?

This EU ref isn't, for me, a chance to show approval or otherwise of the EU, its a choice between what we have now versus what we can expect to have if things change.

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