2023 (expanded) World Cup for South Africa

[rowan]

Repetition does not improve argument. Since you refuse to engage with the range of grounds I just won't bother making the point any more.

So despite suggesting that we should look to widen the rugby world you only want to look at the rugby playing world. That's contradictory but fine. In which case alternating hemispheres is a ludicrous idea because there are not equal numbers of rugby playing countries in the hemispheres capable of or interested in hosting the RWC.

You've now rowed back from pretty much every point you've made on the subject - other than "SA should host the cup". I'm not sure there's any more to be said. Do engage with the actual rugby discussions on the games you watch. It's always good to have a different perspective.

I'm only repeating answers to questions I'm repeatedly asked. I have given my views on the range of grounds, mentioned an article I read in a respected British daily which listed the stadia likely to be used for an Irish World Cup. It was unimpressive - especially by comparison to South Africa's.

I conceded that the days of alternating betweeen the hemispheres was over, but that the time has come for continental rotation, which the tournament having grown too big for small nation hosts. Aside from which of the current bidders is unsuccessful, there is a strong likelihood of Argenina and the US joining the race for 2027, Australia might do so too, and apparently even Russia has expressed interest in staging the tournament in the future. There's simply no need to be sending it back to the Home Unions every second time. That doesn't mean geography should be the defining factor, of course. It just means that where all - or most - other aspects of the bid are more or less equal, it ought to come into play.

If you want to interpret any of this as 'rowing back' it doesn't really bother me. This is not a United Nations Summit Meeting. We're just a bunch of guys discussing rugby on a forum and sometimes we will adjust our views. That's the point, isn't it? But as a matter of fact I think I've been fairly consistent on this particular issue.

[Lizard]

Ah, now Russia would be a great host. I can't imagine money being any issue!

[cashead]

Average attendances in NZ were lower because NZ has small grounds, not because NZ is a small country.

Lumping Japan in to NH and pretending that there is a commonality between a RWC in Japan and Ireland/Italy is disingenuous at best. Given that near 90% of the worlds population lives in the NH, the argument that it's the SH's turn, whilst conveniently ignoring that South Africa has actually held it before can't even kindly be called disingenuous.

Small countries have small grounds. Half the stadiums Ireland are expected to use should they host in 2023 are under 30K capacity.

Fact: Japan is in the NH. It is practically the antipodes of South Africa, and about as far from Australia & NZ as Britain and France are from SA.

The NH's population is not the issue, it is the rugby-playing population and the number of suitable host nations. In this respect the hemispheric divide is much more evenly balanced. Though I'm not suggest it should alternate between the hemispheres indefinitely. That cycle has already ended, with Japan gaining 2019. But long-term there needs to be a continental rotation of the event to promote and foster the game internationally.

Starting with the bit about Irish stadia:

If we're looking at stadium capacity...

Let's first look at the venues used in the 2015 RWC, ordering them by capacity

1. Wembley (London) - 90,000
2. Twickenham (London) - 81,605
3. Millennium Stadium (Cardiff) - 74,154
4. City of Manchester Stadium (Manchester) - 55,097
5. St. James' Park (Newcastle) - 52,409
6. Villa Park (Birmingham) - 42,785
7. Elland Road (Leeds) -37,914
8. King Power Stadium (Leicester) - 32,312
9. Falmer Stadium (Brighton) - 30,750
10. Stadium mk (Milton Keynes) - 30,717
11. Kingsholm Stadium (Gloucester) - 16,500
12. Sandy Park (Exeter) - 12,300

The average capacity (going by the mean) is 46,000.


So, let's now take a gander at the top 12 stadiums in Ireland, ordered by capacity. This will include GAA venues, as the GAA has apparently agreed to host fixtures, should Ireland be successful in their bid.

1. Croke Park (Dublin) - 82,300
2. Semple Stadium (Thurles) - 53,000
3. Aviva Stadium (Dublin) - 51,700
4. Gaelic Grounds (Limerick) - 49,500
5. Pairc Ui Chaoimh (Cork) - 45,000
6. Fitzgerald Stadium (Killarney) - 43,180
7. MacHale Park (Castlebar) - 38,000
8. St. Tiernach's Park (Clones) - 36,000
9. Casement Park (Belfast) - 32,600
10. O'Moore Park (Portlaoise) - 27,000
11. Pearse Stadium (Salthill) - 26,197
12. Breffni Park (Cavan) - 26,000

The average capacity is just north of 42,000. So there's no major difference. It also takes the game around the country and Northern Ireland, and while the stadiums may need the odd lick of paint, I'm sure the GAA will be more than willing to take the Pepsi Challenge when it comes to comparing their centrepiece stadium, Croke Park, to Twickenham.

And secondly, "continental rotation" unfairly favours some countries over others. Why not go with hosts that are ready, willing and able, rather than arbitrarily moving from continent to continent?

[cashead]

Repetition does not improve argument. Since you refuse to engage with the range of grounds I just won't bother making the point any more.

So despite suggesting that we should look to widen the rugby world you only want to look at the rugby playing world. That's contradictory but fine. In which case alternating hemispheres is a ludicrous idea because there are not equal numbers of rugby playing countries in the hemispheres capable of or interested in hosting the RWC.

You've now rowed back from pretty much every point you've made on the subject - other than "SA should host the cup". I'm not sure there's any more to be said. Do engage with the actual rugby discussions on the games you watch. It's always good to have a different perspective.

I'm only repeating answers to questions I'm repeatedly asked. I have given my views on the range of grounds, mentioned an article I read in a respected British daily which listed the stadia likely to be used for an Irish World Cup. It was unimpressive - especially by comparison to South Africa's.

I conceded that the days of alternating betweeen the hemispheres was over, but that the time has come for continental rotation, which the tournament having grown too big for small nation hosts. Aside from which of the current bidders is unsuccessful, there is a strong likelihood of Argenina and the US joining the race for 2027, Australia might do so too, and apparently even Russia has expressed interest in staging the tournament in the future. There's simply no need to be sending it back to the Home Unions every second time. That doesn't mean geography should be the defining factor, of course. It just means that where all - or most - other aspects of the bid are more or less equal, it ought to come into play.

If you want to interpret any of this as 'rowing back' it doesn't really bother me. This is not a United Nations Summit Meeting. We're just a bunch of guys discussing rugby on a forum and sometimes we will adjust our views. That's the point, isn't it? But as a matter of fact I think I've been fairly consistent on this particular issue.

The home unions don't get it every second tournament, actually. And are you now saying "geography should be the defining factor?" You've also argued that entire continents should be stricken from hosting the tournament for years, due to their geographic location. You can't have it both ways.

[rowan]

I think geography is a major factor but not the defining factor - or the only factor that really matters, to put that in simpler terms for you. If all bids are more or less equal and meet the required criteria, then obviously you'd want to stage it in an entirely different geographical location from the last one in order to encourage the game's international development - a stated objective of World Rugby's.

The list of stadia you presented was slightly different from the one I saw in the British press a while ago. I believe a couple of those stadiums may have issues. All of the larger venues are Gaelic and hurling stadiums, fairly antique, and likely in need of alterations and upgrading for a Rugby World Cup. Also, the larger stadiums are based mostly in one city. In South Africa we can find dozens of large stadiums, mostly built specifically for rugby and/or football, many of which were upgraded for the 2010 FIFA World Cup, and which are spread throughout a dozen or so major metropolitan centers.

1 Soccer City 94,736 Johannesburg Gauteng South Africa national football team, Kaizer Chiefs
2 Ellis Park Stadium 62,567 Johannesburg Gauteng Lions, Golden Lions
3 Odi Stadium 60,000 Mabopane Gauteng Garankuwa United
5 Mmabatho Stadium 59,000 Mahikeng North West training ground for North-West University
6 Cape Town Stadium 55,000 Cape Town Western Cape Ajax Cape Town
7 Moses Mabhida Stadium 54,000 Durban KwaZulu-Natal Amazulu
8 Kings Park Stadium 52,000 Durban KwaZulu-Natal Sharks, Natal Sharks
9 Loftus Versfeld Stadium 51,762 Pretoria Gauteng Bulls, Blue Bulls
10 Newlands Stadium 51,100 Cape Town Western Cape South Africa national rugby union team, Stormers, Western Province
11 Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium 48,459 Port Elizabeth Eastern Cape Southern Kings, Eastern Province Kings
12 Royal Bafokeng Stadium 42,000 Rustenburg North West Platinum Stars
13 Peter Mokaba Stadium 41,733 Polokwane Limpopo Polokwane City
14 Mbombela Stadium 40,929 Nelspruit Mpumalanga Pumas, Mpumalanga Black Aces
15 Free State Stadium 40,911 Bloemfontein Free State Bloemfontein Celtic F.C., Central Cheetahs, Free State Cheetahs
16 Orlando Stadium 40,000 Soweto Gauteng Orlando Pirates F.C.
17 Johannesburg Stadium 37,500 Johannesburg Gauteng training ground for Lions and Golden Lions
18 Charles Mopeli Stadium 35,000 Phuthaditjhaba Free State Maluti FET College F.C.
20 EPRU Stadium 33,852 Port Elizabeth Eastern Cape no current tenant
21 Athlone Stadium 30,000 Cape Town Western Cape Santos
Rand Stadium 30,000 Johannesburg Gauteng training ground for Orlando Pirates
Olympia Park 30,000 Rustenburg North West no current tenant

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I think geography is a major factor but not the defining factor - or the only factor that really matters, to put that in simpler terms for you. If all bids are more or less equal and meet the required criteria, then obviously you'd want to stage it in an entirely different geographical location from the last one in order to encourage the game's international development - a stated objective of World Rugby's.

The list of stadia you presented was slightly different from the one I saw in the British press a while ago. I believe a couple of those stadiums may have issues. All of the larger venues are Gaelic and hurling stadiums, fairly antique, and likely in need of alterations and upgrading for a Rugby World Cup. Also, the larger stadiums are based mostly in one city.

Unless you are arbitrarily and bizarrely stopping at 3 stadiums for "the larger stadiums" that's simply not true as you'll discover by the simple expedient of reading.

[rowan]

I was referring to the list of stadiums I saw in the press, not the list presented here, but actually you are right about that. I went back and checked and only three of the 12 stadiums listed in the article were in Dublin.

[cashead]

Aside from all that, would you actually want the perpetual mess that is the SARU anywhere near the organisation of a Rugby World Cup? Besides, their CEO has some allegedly very sticky fingers as well.

[Lizard]

Aside from all that, would you actually want the perpetual mess that is the SARU anywhere near the organisation of a Rugby World Cup? Besides, their CEO has some allegedly very sticky fingers as well.

RWC2023, brought to you by the same people that brought you the Southern Kings...

[cashead]

Aside from all that, would you actually want the perpetual mess that is the SARU anywhere near the organisation of a Rugby World Cup? Besides, their CEO has some allegedly very sticky fingers as well.

RWC2023, brought to you by the same people that brought you the Southern Kings...

I'm pretty sure a fair few of their players saw the headlines and thought "no wonder I haven't been paid on yonks."

[Lizard]

Aside from all that, would you actually want the perpetual mess that is the SARU anywhere near the organisation of a Rugby World Cup? Besides, their CEO has some allegedly very sticky fingers as well.

RWC2023, brought to you by the same people that brought you the Southern Kings...

I'm pretty sure a fair few of their players saw the headlines and thought "no wonder I haven't been paid on yonks."

And no doubt they are thrilled at being put in the African Conference that plays all its inter-group games against NZ teams - they've got the Chiefs in PE, then the Cru (who are coming off a bye) in Christchurch only 6 days later, followed by another 6 day turnaround to meet the Canes at the Cake Tin. Later in the season, just after they fly home from Argentina, the Blues come visiting and the defending champs show up a few weeks after that.

[rowan]

The whole Super Rugby competition has been turned into a mess by the inclusion of Japan. I suspect that had more to do with NZ & Australia than it did with SA.

Btw, 2022 Commonwealth Games going South Africa's way - just a year before the 10th Rugby World Cup. Seems they're not too concerned about the crime situation over there.

[Lizard]

The whole Super Rugby competition has been turned into a mess by the inclusion of Japan. I suspect that had more to do with NZ & Australia than it did with SA.

Btw, 2022 Commonwealth Games going South Africa's way - just a year before the 10th Rugby World Cup. Seems they're not too concerned about the crime situation over there.

Any source for your claim that Aus and NZ were responsible for the Sunwolves? Given that the entire competition has been bastardized just so the SA can have (another) sub-par franchise, I suspect it is SA pulling the strings here.

And can you remind me who Durban was competing with to get the 2022 Commonwealth irrelevancy?

[rowan]

Any source for your claim that Aus and NZ were responsible for the Sunwolves? Given that the entire competition has been bastardized just so the SA can have (another) sub-par franchise, I suspect it is SA pulling the strings here.

No, as stated, it's just a guess based on the obvious economic and geographical factors. I think Australia have been the prime movers behind expansion all along, while SA's only concern has been to get its 6th franchise. Not sure where NZ stands, but they are limited by their small economy and may have been the first to welcome Japanese involvement for that reason.

Re the C/Wealth Games, I believe the competition dropped out at various stages in the bidding process, thereby gifting the event to Durban. My point wasn't that this somehow made South Africa a superior host nation for major events to anyone else; only that if the rhythmic gymnasts, badminton players, lawn bowlers & volleyballers are preared to go there (among thousands of athletes representin 50 nations), I don't see why the rugby fraternity should stay at home quaking in its boots...

[Digby]

We're just a bunch of guys discussing rugby on a forum and sometimes we will adjust our views.

Would seem you're new to t'interweb.

And I'd be taking a WC to the Americas, North and South, before looking for a return to Africa. Broadly I'd take the new two events after Japan to Italy and Argentina.

[morepork]

Why a Kieth Quinn avatar? I mean, why not Grant Nisbett.

[cashead]

Or the Hammer Girl?

[rowan]

And I'd be taking a WC to the Americas, North and South, before looking for a return to Africa. Broadly I'd take the new two events after Japan to Italy and Argentina.


Why?

[Digby]

And I'd be taking a WC to the Americas, North and South, before looking for a return to Africa. Broadly I'd take the new two events after Japan to Italy and Argentina.


Why?

Seems a decent balance of raising finance, developing the game, facilities, and quality holiday destinations. Also I'm still in a bad mood with Ireland over sending the 2011 event to NZ, and I'm not interested in anyone getting to host again when some decent options haven't done it a first time.

[rowan]

I agree with you to some extent, but given Ireland has co-hosted twice before, Italy is actually the only hosting virgin among the 2023 candidates. I'm all for new hosts, and I'm all for Italy, but I think 2027 would be much more appropriate. Two expansion markets in succession seems a tad risky (Japan already had problems with its Olympic Stadium and SA was put on standby). Italy could also use the extra 4 years to get up to speed, while Western Europe shouldn't be hosting every 2nd edition of what is supposedly a 'world game.' South Africa is a rugby heartland with the biggest rugby playing community in the world behind England. It has bid 4 times since hosting a magnificent tournament in 1995, and it will not receive yet another rejection too warmly when the other former champions have all been involved in hosting the event at least twice. Plus the African continent is one of the fastest developing regions in inernational rugby. So let them have their long overdue second turn in 2023, I say, and give Italy another 4 years to be fully ready for 2027. It's not so far away, after all.

[Owain Glyndwr]

Italy would get my vote. Close enough for all northern hemisphere fans that travelling isn't an issue, a decent number of home based fans, and good stadia and plenty of hotels and other infrastructure for fans. Time to spread the love.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I agree with you to some extent, but given Ireland has co-hosted twice before, Italy is actually the only hosting virgin among the 2023 candidates. I'm all for new hosts, and I'm all for Italy, but I think 2027 would be much more appropriate. Two expansion markets in succession seems a tad risky (Japan already had problems with its Olympic Stadium and SA was put on standby). Italy could also use the extra 4 years to get up to speed, while Western Europe shouldn't be hosting every 2nd edition of what is supposedly a 'world game.' South Africa is a rugby heartland with the biggest rugby playing community in the world behind England. It has bid 4 times since hosting a magnificent tournament in 1995, and it will not receive yet another rejection too warmly when the other former champions have all been involved in hosting the event at least twice. Plus the African continent is one of the fastest developing regions in inernational rugby. So let them have their long overdue second turn in 2023, I say, and give Italy another 4 years to be fully ready for 2027. It's not so far away, after all.

As you keep saying, Europe is not an expansion market.

[rowan]

Italy would get my vote. Close enough for all northern hemisphere fans that travelling isn't an issue, a decent number of home based fans, and good stadia and plenty of hotels and other infrastructure for fans. Time to spread the love.

The first point is Eurocentric, of course. Europeans get to see a World Cup in their own back yard every 8 years at present, while fans in the world's second biggest rugby-playing nation have to wait decades. & there are many rapidly developing rugby nations on the African continent. Just for example, Madagascar actually gets some of the biggest crowds outside of tier 1 for its major home-games, Kenya has emerged as a 7-a-side heavyweight, and Swaziland has one of the largest rugby communities per capita in the world.

Europe is not an expansion market.

Italy is. Europe hasn't actually bid for the event. But wouldn't that be interesting some day in the future - the EU hosting a World Cup

[Which Tyler]

Italy would get my vote. Close enough for all northern hemisphere fans that travelling isn't an issue, a decent number of home based fans, and good stadia and plenty of hotels and other infrastructure for fans. Time to spread the love.

So Italy is both an expansion market AND a profit-making host. What's not to like?

[Puja]

Italy would get my vote. Close enough for all northern hemisphere fans that travelling isn't an issue, a decent number of home based fans, and good stadia and plenty of hotels and other infrastructure for fans. Time to spread the love.

I'd be in favour of that - a RWC in Italy would take it away from a traditional nation again and would do wonders for the development of the game in the country. I think whether it stands a chance will depend on the success of the Sunwolves - if fans flock to them and they get a couple of results, then I think the IRB will feel happier about Japan 2019 to be willing to take another risk for 2023. If they play in front of a man and his dog, I think they'll run for a safe otion.

I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that no-one thinks France should host it.

Puja