Brexit delayed

[Mellsblue]

While I agree with you about about the language, I cant bring myself to have any sympathy, after all voting leave is going to predominantly hit those who voted leave. In order to prove they aren't malcontent morons, they've acted like... well, like people who are unhappy and who've done something silly. It's like trump voters in america or nationalists in Scotland (or indeed, nationalists anywhere); the idea that they'll stick it to the man by playing right into the man's hands doesn't really put them in a position to complain when someone takes the piss for doing so.

Ah, polite Remainer arrogance.

No more so than yours is an example of patronising excuse making.

Give me some cold, hard facts about why they've done something 'silly' and I'll agree with you.

[jared_7]

Hard or soft, the issue with brexit is that it now must happen because of the result of a referendum held before any real idea of what a realistic brexit would look like.

A bit like been offered a 400 square foot extension on you house for free, only to find that it turns out to be 1 foot by 1 foot by 400 feet tall. Technically what you signed up for, probably not a choice you would have made had you known in advance.

Its all been covered a million times before, but the fact is

a) it wasn't a 90-10 victory, it was 52-48, and
b) It was a yes or no question, so whilst people can speculate why people voted Brexit, we don't actually know as there were a multitude of reasons.

Its why I find the whole concept of the government deciding hard or soft or whatever other innuendo-loaded term you can think of nonsensical. I don't know where the government gets the idea freedom of Movement is a line in the sand, or this is a must, or that - in fact if just 10% of the people who voted Brexit did so for reasons other the immigration, then there isn't even a majority for that issue. And this applies to everything.

So, I see 2 fair options:

1) Parliament is informed and involved in the whole process. I don't know how this would work, its probably difficult, but theoretically at least ALL of those representing the people will have their voices and views heard, or

2) The government goes it alone in the negotiating table, but then hold a second referendum at the end on whether the country accepts the terms they have unilaterally agreed.

[fivepointer]

Hard or soft, the issue with brexit is that it now must happen because of the result of a referendum held before any real idea of what a realistic brexit would look like.

A bit like been offered a 400 square foot extension on you house for free, only to find that it turns out to be 1 foot by 1 foot by 400 feet tall. Technically what you signed up for, probably not a choice you would have made had you known in advance.

Its all been covered a million times before, but the fact is

a) it wasn't a 90-10 victory, it was 52-48, and
b) It was a yes or no question, so whilst people can speculate why people voted Brexit, we don't actually know as there were a multitude of reasons.

Its why I find the whole concept of the government deciding hard or soft or whatever other innuendo-loaded term you can think of nonsensical. I don't know where the government gets the idea freedom of Movement is a line in the sand, or this is a must, or that - in fact if just 10% of the people who voted Brexit did so for reasons other the immigration, then there isn't even a majority for that issue. And this applies to everything.

So, I see 2 fair options:

1) Parliament is informed and involved in the whole process. I don't know how this would work, its probably difficult, but theoretically at least ALL of those representing the people will have their voices and views heard, or

2) The government goes it alone in the negotiating table, but then hold a second referendum at the end on whether the country accepts the terms they have unilaterally agreed.

Thats an excellent summary.

I think the Govt favours option 2 but without the 2nd referendum.

Events may force them to think differently.

[Digby]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is why the working class voted leave.

While I agree with you about about the language, I cant bring myself to have any sympathy, after all voting leave is going to predominantly hit those who voted leave. In order to prove they aren't malcontent morons, they've acted like... well, like people who are unhappy and who've done something silly. It's like trump voters in america or nationalists in Scotland (or indeed, nationalists anywhere); the idea that they'll stick it to the man by playing right into the man's hands doesn't really put them in a position to complain when someone takes the piss for doing so.

Ah, polite Remainer arrogance.

I've never claimed not to be arrogant, indeed I'd happily confess I am.

I'll note this though, I might hate these people with a loathing and should I encounter one on fire I'm happy to walk on by, but I'm still happy to accept the vote was lost, and that we should respect the vote and leave the EU.

[Stones of granite]

Hard or soft, the issue with brexit is that it now must happen because of the result of a referendum held before any real idea of what a realistic brexit would look like.

A bit like been offered a 400 square foot extension on you house for free, only to find that it turns out to be 1 foot by 1 foot by 400 feet tall. Technically what you signed up for, probably not a choice you would have made had you known in advance.

Its all been covered a million times before, but the fact is

a) it wasn't a 90-10 victory, it was 52-48, and
b) It was a yes or no question, so whilst people can speculate why people voted Brexit, we don't actually know as there were a multitude of reasons.

Its why I find the whole concept of the government deciding hard or soft or whatever other innuendo-loaded term you can think of nonsensical. I don't know where the government gets the idea freedom of Movement is a line in the sand, or this is a must, or that - in fact if just 10% of the people who voted Brexit did so for reasons other the immigration, then there isn't even a majority for that issue. And this applies to everything.

So, I see 2 fair options:

1) Parliament is informed and involved in the whole process. I don't know how this would work, its probably difficult, but theoretically at least ALL of those representing the people will have their voices and views heard, or

2) The government goes it alone in the negotiating table, but then hold a second referendum at the end on whether the country accepts the terms they have unilaterally agreed.

Good post, and occurs to me to wonder what will happen if the Government win their appeal in the Supreme Court, press on with Art 50 and end up negotiating a deal whereby we leave the EU formally but stay in the single market with concomitant freedom of movement and financial contributions (similar to Norway).
To the majority of the Daily Mail tendency this would look a betrayal, but May could claim that the outcome of the Referendum has been delivered.

[Digby]

Good post, and occurs to me to wonder what will happen if the Government win their appeal in the Supreme Court, press on with Art 50 and end up negotiating a deal whereby we leave the EU formally but stay in the single market with concomitant freedom of movement and financial contributions (similar to Norway).
To the majority of the Daily Mail tendency this would look a betrayal, but May could claim that the outcome of the Referendum has been delivered.

Pretty much the problem. A soft brexit sees us perhaps simply give up a seat at the grown ups table when it comes to decision making, a hard brexit could cost an awful lot of money. Either way a lot of people will be very cross, so god knows what a win looks like.

[canta_brian]

Do we actually have any idea of where a hard brexit would leave us? How many tariffs would we face compared to now, the question of brits living in Eu member states and all that sort of thing. If the negations go badly and the Eu plays real hard ball where could we end up?

[OptimisticJock]

some of you belters

[Stones of granite]

some of you belters

You been on the sauce Baz?

[Eugene Wrayburn]

malcontent morons

Ladies and gentlemen, this is why the working class voted leave.

It is absolutely because they are malcontent morons.

[OptimisticJock]

some of you belters

You been on the sauce Baz?

Now yes. Then no

[Digby]

And so to India to begin negotiations for a trade deal we can't negotiate as we're still in the customs union. India is sure to be receptive as they're already selling plenty to us despite the fact they're a heavily protected economny, and indeed India wasn't interested in removing that protection even when the EU as a whole asked about it.

India might want to talk about how many Indians would be allowed into the UK, but that's not only going to not help address the migration concerns of many racists it'll likely make the situation 'worse', and if we did a deal like that guess what everyone else will ask for?

[Digby]

malcontent morons

Ladies and gentlemen, this is why the working class voted leave.

It is absolutely because they are malcontent morons.

If we want to look at working class concerns I'd be more than willing to look at the inequality across society, to look at how money is becoming more concentrated at the top end, to look at better funding for the NHS, to look at radical improvements in educational spending, to look at actually addressing social housing rather than making house prices go up and explode social housing costs in rent.

I'm not though sold making us all poorer is a good way to go about addressing their concerns. Indeed for all I'd be accepting of many of their concerns this is not a solution and actually something I view which will make their lot in life still worse. I'd view the voting over Brexit to be driven by ignorance, by fear, and generally by some less than pleasant views - thus malcontent morons. I'm both cross and sad that my country could vote this way, to want to withdraw from the world and pretend it's a smaller place, to close off opportunities, and especially that's it's old people who've voted to screw the grandkids given the old will die first (although given voting turnout of the young my sympathies are somewhat limited)

[Mellsblue]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is why the working class voted leave.

It is absolutely because they are malcontent morons.

If we want to look at working class concerns I'd be more than willing to look at the inequality across society, to look at how money is becoming more concentrated at the top end, to look at better funding for the NHS, to look at radical improvements in educational spending, to look at actually addressing social housing rather than making house prices go up and explode social housing costs in rent.

I'm not though sold making us all poorer is a good way to go about addressing their concerns. Indeed for all I'd be accepting of many of their concerns this is not a solution and actually something I view which will make their lot in life still worse. I'd view the voting over Brexit to be driven by ignorance, by fear, and generally by some less than pleasant views - thus malcontent morons. I'm both cross and sad that my country could vote this way, to want to withdraw from the world and pretend it's a smaller place, to close off opportunities, and especially that's it's old people who've voted to screw the grandkids given the old will die first (although given voting turnout of the young my sympathies are somewhat limited)

I can agree with the first paragraph. Whether staying in the EU is the answer to their prayers I would contend. Freedom of movement, though I have no problem with it, exacerbates low wages and high unemployment in traditional working class sectors, and how anyone can argue the EU has helped the working class in Greece and Spain is beyond me. The only way we have so far been made poorer is the fall in the pound which will of course make the UK less attractive to foreign workers. Bad news for those of us who want to go abroad or build an extension, eg me, but good news for those looking for a min wage job.
I'd also contend the 'little englander' argument. Have a look at the tariffs imposed on African farmers so as to protect French farmers and see whether that is an outward looking stance. That's before you get to the fact that 40% of the EU budget goes to CAP. Other such stringent tariffs are put in place to protect European sectors, leather shoes is a good one. Then look at the UK's attitude to global bodies. We are the only/one of only two Eu nations (can't remember about Poland) to pay our agreed allocation to NATO (with some useful massaging of the figures, admittedly) the EU on the other hand undermine it by not coughing up the readies and by setting up an EU army. Look at our international aid budget compared to anyone else, even if a lot of it goes to EU bodies who make even the DFID themselves look thrifty. Look at charitable giving per capita, again way ahead of other EU countries, except the equally Euro-sceptic Dutch. Look at the UK's stance on free trade deals compared with the EU. None of that paints a selfish or 'little englander' picture.

I am starting to come across as a bitter Leaver which I am not, but you can't just say that the EU is all good and those who voted against it are morons. Yes, there were plenty of ignorant people who voted Leave but then, if we want to paint with a large brush, there were plenty of cosmopolitan Liberals who voted remain purely because the EU suits their social and economic status and they themselves are ignorant of the problems of those in depressed areas. Ignorance goes both ways. For every Remainer who says that Brexiteers are bigoted and ignorant of what is best for them, there is a Brexiteer saying that Remainers are arrogant, selfish and ignorant of what is best for the working class. That's before you accept that there were an awful lot of highly intelligent people who voted Leave.

As for those who used the Leave vote as a free pass to be racist, they can f**k off.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love this to all go away and for us to be spending all our energies pushing the EU in to being less protectionist and less wasteful whilst maximising all its positives but that isn't going to happen. And, to brand those who voted leave as uneducated morons is just exacerbating a major issue that led to the result in the first place.

[Digby]

I wouldn't for a moment contend the EU is without issue, it has massive issues, overeach and some of the ideas of ever closer integration, with the EU army (though I doubt that'll amount to much), significantly with CAP as you say, with corruption, and it goes on and on. Fixing it seems a much better idea than walking away mind.

And on the min wages jobs, it's not like if the immigrants go you'll suddenly see a big rise in wages at the lower end, we'll just see a smaller economy. And if the issue is low wages one doesn't need to leave the EU but address minimum wages.

[Digby]

I'm also really not sure about there being highly intelligent people who voted to leave. I'd go with there are some highly educated people who voted to leave, but that's a different thing.

Leavers for me break down as thick, scum and racist, or some combination thereof.

[jared_7]

I'm also really not sure about there being highly intelligent people who voted to leave. I'd go with there are some highly educated people who voted to leave, but that's a different thing.

Leavers for me break down as thick, scum and racist, or some combination thereof.

There are many intelligent reasons to leave the EU, what is unintelligent is believing the Conservatives are the party to address those reasons.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I'm also really not sure about there being highly intelligent people who voted to leave. I'd go with there are some highly educated people who voted to leave, but that's a different thing.

Leavers for me break down as thick, scum and racist, or some combination thereof.

This.

Eta, actually one might carve out space for the deluded, separate to the thick, as they might not be completely subsumed in that category.

[Mellsblue]

I agree that we should have stayed and tried to mould the EU in to something that better reflects the UK's aims. Whether that would ever work I don't know. Perhaps if we'd not spent years moaning and sulking they might have been more willing to listen to us. On the other hand, the MP I know was part of the delegation negotiating on behalf of the UK prior to the referendum and is a passionate supporter of the EU, and even he has said that they do seem just unwilling to change on even the most minor things. He gave me a few examples and the mind boggles at the stubbornness and ignorance.

[Mellsblue]

I'm also really not sure about there being highly intelligent people who voted to leave. I'd go with there are some highly educated people who voted to leave, but that's a different thing.

Leavers for me break down as thick, scum and racist, or some combination thereof.

This.

god forbid anyone who disagrees with you is intelligent. To be honest, that's the sort of thing I expect Gove and Cummings would've said about those who opposed their education reforms.

As for the final sentence. For all the disgust at the insults thrown at the three high court judges, and it is disgusting, this is just as bad.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I'm also really not sure about there being highly intelligent people who voted to leave. I'd go with there are some highly educated people who voted to leave, but that's a different thing.

Leavers for me break down as thick, scum and racist, or some combination thereof.

This.

god forbid anyone who disagrees with you is intelligent. To be honest, that's the sort of thing I expect Gove and Cummings would've said about those who opposed their education reforms.

As for the final sentence. For all the disgust at the insults thrown at the three high court judges, and it is disgusting, this is just as bad.

Give me an intelligent argument for leaving the EU and I'll be delighted to hear it. I've not heard one yet.

[Mellsblue]

This.

god forbid anyone who disagrees with you is intelligent. To be honest, that's the sort of thing I expect Gove and Cummings would've said about those who opposed their education reforms.

As for the final sentence. For all the disgust at the insults thrown at the three high court judges, and it is disgusting, this is just as bad.

Give me an intelligent argument for leaving the EU and I'll be delighted to hear it. I've not heard one yet.

You'll have heard them all as you're a well read person. There have been many, as there are on both sides, you've just chosen to not to see them as intelligent as you disagree with them.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

god forbid anyone who disagrees with you is intelligent. To be honest, that's the sort of thing I expect Gove and Cummings would've said about those who opposed their education reforms.

As for the final sentence. For all the disgust at the insults thrown at the three high court judges, and it is disgusting, this is just as bad.

Give me an intelligent argument for leaving the EU and I'll be delighted to hear it. I've not heard one yet.

You'll have heard them all as you're a well read person. There have been many, as there are on both sides, you've just chosen to not to see them as intelligent as you disagree with them.

No. There are plenty of arguments that I disagree with that I'm quite happy to acknowledge are intelligent. There just isn't a single one in favour of leaving the EU.

Go on. Give it your best shot with the argument that you think is most intelligent. I'd put money on it being possible to demolish it in 5 sentences.

[Adder]

Give me an intelligent argument for leaving the EU and I'll be delighted to hear it. I've not heard one yet.

You'll have heard them all as you're a well read person. There have been many, as there are on both sides, you've just chosen to not to see them as intelligent as you disagree with them.

No. There are plenty of arguments that I disagree with that I'm quite happy to acknowledge are intelligent. There just isn't a single one in favour of leaving the EU.

Go on. Give it your best shot with the argument that you think is most intelligent. I'd put money on it being possible to demolish it in 5 sentences.

If you were to look at it from a European point of view...

[Mellsblue]

Give me an intelligent argument for leaving the EU and I'll be delighted to hear it. I've not heard one yet.

You'll have heard them all as you're a well read person. There have been many, as there are on both sides, you've just chosen to not to see them as intelligent as you disagree with them.

No. There are plenty of arguments that I disagree with that I'm quite happy to acknowledge are intelligent. There just isn't a single one in favour of leaving the EU.

Go on. Give it your best shot with the argument that you think is most intelligent. I'd put money on it being possible to demolish it in 5 sentences.

There isn't a single intelligent argument in favour of leaving the EU? How about you give me an argument that there aren't any serious flaws in the EU and let's see if it's not possible to demolish that in five sentences.

Are you expecting me to come forward with a new argument that you haven't heard and you, as a clearly strident Europhile, will suddenly go yes you're right?

Again, I voted remain. Again, I wanted to stay in, play an active role and try and change it for the better - the priorities for which Diggers lists above. But to pretend there are no arguments for leaving is delusional.

I'm not here to fight the leavers fight. I'm just saying there are good reasons for leaving, as there are good reasons for remaining, but to claim there is no intelligent argument to leave and all those that do want to leave are unintelligent is nonsense. The same sort of nonsense spouted by those who think the EU is the devil in governmental form.