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jared_7
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Re: Trump

Post by jared_7 »

J Dory wrote:I think his point is that people are responsible for far more pollution in NZ than dairy farms, so singling dairy farms out is unfair.
So? Like I said, what does that even mean? We should cut our population? If you look at the average footprint of a household in NZ it is very good by developed world standards, so unless he is going to offer more specific ways that we can reduce our footprint, his comments are pointless. And dairy farming surely counts as an activity for human consumption anyway?

People aren't singling out dairy farms, we are wanting to do the best we can to reduce emissions across all areas and guess what? Dairy farming makes up a HUGE portion of our emissions relative to the size of our population, so it makes sense to focus on the low hanging fruit.

I have seen some really reasonable policies bandied about for ways to help farmers catch up in terms of emissions and use of more modern technologies, as well as limiting the ridiculous intensive practices that have decimated our waterways in recent years in the search for profit above all else. But they are all treated as a personal attack on the livelihood of farmers when clearly the solution is to all work together.

Articles like this, using anecdotal evidence of some imaginary "annoying liberal attacking me" is exactly why things won't get done. It's a bit like housing really, the 2 pillars of NZ society people dare not question.
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Which Tyler
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Re: Trump

Post by Which Tyler »

morepork wrote:Dairy farming is a human activity. Deflecting the argument to cows is disingenuous.
No Lactation.jpg
Last edited by Which Tyler on Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jared_7
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Re: Trump

Post by jared_7 »

morepork wrote:
J Dory wrote:I think his point is that people are responsible for far more pollution in NZ than dairy farms, so singling dairy farms out is unfair.

Dairy farming is a human activity. Deflecting the argument to cows is disingenuous.
This is a much more succinct version of my waffly rant.

Cheers, MP.
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Re: Trump

Post by J Dory »

It was a shit article, but I have sympathy for dairy farmers given I was raised on a dairy farm and know that there are lots of farmers out there doing their best to minimize the environmental impact of their farms. Jared, you make two points that I often hear thrown out as facts:

-Dairy farming makes up a HUGE portion of our emissions relative to the size of our population
Does it? Which emmissions are you referring to? CO2? Methane? Do you have any links to scientific research that shows this versus other emmissions sources in NZ? I'd be genuinely interested to see it.

-intensive practices that have decimated our waterways in recent years
NZ waterways have been bad for a long time. I've seen efforts by farmers, including my own family farm when we still had it, to reduce effluent and fertilizer run off into waterways. Fencing of waterways, use of effluent as a fertilizer to minimize use of phosphate based chemical fertilizer are a couple of examples. No doubt there are farms out there where the farmer doesn't give a fuck. But is there an actual recent decline in water quality directly attributable to dairy farming? Again, I'd be genuinely interested to see the studies on this.

I agree with MPs earlier post, we need investment in research on what the real problems are, what the real sustainable solutions are. Dairy farming is part of the problem, one of many environmental issues challenging NZ. But if you single out farmers, of course they are going to get defensive. Improving the environmental impact of dairy farming should be part of a national well funded science based environmental policy.
jared_7
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Re: Trump

Post by jared_7 »

J Dory wrote:It was a shit article, but I have sympathy for dairy farmers given I was raised on a dairy farm and know that there are lots of farmers out there doing their best to minimize the environmental impact of their farms. Jared, you make two points that I often hear thrown out as facts:

-Dairy farming makes up a HUGE portion of our emissions relative to the size of our population
Does it? Which emmissions are you referring to? CO2? Methane? Do you have any links to scientific research that shows this versus other emmissions sources in NZ? I'd be genuinely interested to see it..
"Agriculture is responsible for producing 48 per cent of New Zealand's carbon emissions, according to the Environment Ministry.

Landcare Research estimates almost two thirds of that is methane produced by belching and farting cattle and sheep.

The Crown Research Institute estimates those methane emissions have increased 10 per cent since 1990 as more farms have converted to dairy.

It is the biggest blot on New Zealand's checkered climate change record.

On a per-capita basis, the New Zealand economy has the ignominy of the highest methane emissions in the world at 600 kilograms per person – six times the global average."
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming ... t-to-crack

Like I said, this is not "lets pick on farmers for the hell of it", its a "lets reduce our carbon emissions as a nation - oh look, agriculture accounts for 50% of it, seems like the most OBVIOUS place to start".

Now, it is difficult because obviously saying we have the highest per capita methane emissions is unfair - as we export most of our produce it is theoretically emissions for the rest of the world. But we are past this, we are past trying to shift the burden to others, or wait for others to act. We need to look after ourselves and do the best we can.

J Dory wrote: -intensive practices that have decimated our waterways in recent years
NZ waterways have been bad for a long time. I've seen efforts by farmers, including my own family farm when we still had it, to reduce effluent and fertilizer run off into waterways. Fencing of waterways, use of effluent as a fertilizer to minimize use of phosphate based chemical fertilizer are a couple of examples. No doubt there are farms out there where the farmer doesn't give a fuck. But is there an actual recent decline in water quality directly attributable to dairy farming? Again, I'd be genuinely interested to see the studies on this.

I agree with MPs earlier post, we need investment in research on what the real problems are, what the real sustainable solutions are. Dairy farming is part of the problem, one of many environmental issues challenging NZ. But if you single out farmers, of course they are going to get defensive. Improving the environmental impact of dairy farming should be part of a national well funded science based environmental policy.
Drawing a correlation between regions with a significant increase in dairy farming and those with large increases in nitrogen loads, Wright said the rapid growth had led to a ''big increase'' in the concentration of nitrogen in waterways.

Canterbury, which has highest rate of converted land, had a 27 per cent increase in nitrogen loads between 1996 to 2008.

Wright predicts between 2008 to 2020 nitrogen loads will increase by 15 per cent in Canterbury, and nationally there will be a six per cent growth. Likewise, phosphorus loads are expected to increase in Canterbury by three per cent between 2008 to 2020.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/9 ... ming-water

An article with a lot of opinions from people on both sides but there seems to be data there.

I absolutely agree with everything you've said here. Its obviously not every single farmer, and for example the system Morgan has suggested; levies and offsets, would most likely see your family receiving money as a result of their environmental efforts, while farms with poor records would be taxed. The polluters basically pay the best practice farms, the ultimate incentive to improve your systems.

And technology is a must, but I guess my overall point here is first you need to get to a place where there is universal acceptance of a problem before any solutions can begin. My issue with articles like the one posted, and many others on the topic, is that there seems an unwillingness by government and SOME farmers to accept that there is in fact a problem, mainly because "NZ is a business" in the eyes of many and no one wants to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. NZ is pretty lucky on the technology side in that our relatively small country makes it easy to quickly test and roll out advancements as they come in.
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morepork
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Re: Trump

Post by morepork »

The co-ops are a major problem. Conversions of land have ridden roughshod over environmental resources. Go to Canterbury and check out the amount of nitrates they ladle on the land and the volume of water they use from bores. It's fucking ridiculous. Dory, this is a failure of central government. Making the issue about attacks on farmers is, with respect, again disingenuous. The same applies to the savaging scientists get when they dare speak about data.
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Re: Trump

Post by rowan »

This discussion seems to have gone off on a slight tangent since I last checked in a few hours ago... :?
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
J Dory
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Re: Trump

Post by J Dory »

Here's a report on the waterways issue.

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/lan ... e-water-11

Draw your own conclusions, but to me it reads "we don't have enough data yet", that's a report from scientists.

I'm not suggesting farming isn't an issue. It is. NZ needs to continue to invest in policies to reduce agriculture emmissions and waterway pollution, including enforcement options. What pisses me off is the smuggity smuggness of city and town dwellers consuming their way to happiness while taking jabs at the national punching bag that farming, and in particular dairy farming seems to have become.
jared_7
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Re: Trump

Post by jared_7 »

J Dory wrote:Here's a report on the waterways issue.

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/lan ... e-water-11

Draw your own conclusions, but to me it reads "we don't have enough data yet", that's a report from scientists.

I'm not suggesting farming isn't an issue. It is. NZ needs to continue to invest in policies to reduce agriculture emmissions and waterway pollution, including enforcement options. What pisses me off is the smuggity smuggness of city and town dwellers consuming their way to happiness while taking jabs at the national punching bag that farming, and in particular dairy farming seems to have become.
Be careful JD, this sounds a lot like the overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly small town Trump supporters claiming the millions upon millions of people living in vast, multicultural cities with huge diversities in jobs are the ones "living in a bubble".

I don't know why any of this needs to be us versus them. Just because someone is (and yes, most possibly a w*nker) sipping a latte on Ponsonby road, doesn't mean that person has no right to care about the environment and country in which they live.

Peace, brother.
J Dory
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Re: Trump

Post by J Dory »

jared_7 wrote:
J Dory wrote:Here's a report on the waterways issue.

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/lan ... e-water-11

Draw your own conclusions, but to me it reads "we don't have enough data yet", that's a report from scientists.

I'm not suggesting farming isn't an issue. It is. NZ needs to continue to invest in policies to reduce agriculture emmissions and waterway pollution, including enforcement options. What pisses me off is the smuggity smuggness of city and town dwellers consuming their way to happiness while taking jabs at the national punching bag that farming, and in particular dairy farming seems to have become.
Be careful JD, this sounds a lot like the overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly small town Trump supporters claiming the millions upon millions of people living in vast, multicultural cities with huge diversities in jobs are the ones "living in a bubble".

I don't know why any of this needs to be us versus them. Just because someone is (and yes, most possibly a w*nker) sipping a latte on Ponsonby road, doesn't mean that person has no right to care about the environment and country in which they live.

Peace, brother.
I agree Jared, it doesn't need to be us versus them. That's really my point.

Trump for prime minister.
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morepork
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Re: Trump

Post by morepork »

rowan wrote:This discussion seems to have gone off on a slight tangent since I last checked in a few hours ago... :?

Feel free to fuck off any time Clinton.
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Re: Trump

Post by morepork »

J Dory wrote:Here's a report on the waterways issue.

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/lan ... e-water-11

Draw your own conclusions, but to me it reads "we don't have enough data yet", that's a report from scientists.

I'm not suggesting farming isn't an issue. It is. NZ needs to continue to invest in policies to reduce agriculture emmissions and waterway pollution, including enforcement options. What pisses me off is the smuggity smuggness of city and town dwellers consuming their way to happiness while taking jabs at the national punching bag that farming, and in particular dairy farming seems to have become.

JD, I can tell you from first hand experience that the academic environment in NZ is one of the most inbred and least objective you will see anywhere. Nothing that affects the short term profitability of agriculture is published, and any academic that speaks out against it is dealt with swiftly. Nearly the entirety of scientific undertaking in any field of the biological and environmental sciences is engineered to give industry leverage over resources. In the late 1990's Vialactia, the "research" arm of Fonterra moved in on the School of Biological Sciences at Auckland Uni under the guide of a long term mandate to commercialise as much research as possible. This entity steamrolls everything in it's path, thanks to central government interference. Everything from microbiology to neurodegenerative disease research is in thrall to this entity for access to funding.The dairy industry "milks" graduate students from the local pool and researchers are obliged to host dairy research in their labs, no matter what their area of expertise.


That waterways report is a case study in weak sampling completely hamstringing any meaningful conclusion. ".....it has generally not been possible in this report to characterise water quality during particular periods of the year when dairying impacts are likely to be accentuated (eg, channel disturbance during low flows in summer and higher nutrient delivery to waterways in winter). This is either because an intensive seasonal monitoring programme has not been undertaken, or because more data analysis is required at both the regional and national scale." So what the fuck is the point? I'll tell you what it is, kick back for another few years and do nothing. I would be embarrassed to have my name as a scientist sullied by association with that ridiculously piss-poor effort. Sorry.
J Dory
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Re: Trump

Post by J Dory »

morepork wrote:
J Dory wrote:Here's a report on the waterways issue.

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/lan ... e-water-11

Draw your own conclusions, but to me it reads "we don't have enough data yet", that's a report from scientists.

I'm not suggesting farming isn't an issue. It is. NZ needs to continue to invest in policies to reduce agriculture emmissions and waterway pollution, including enforcement options. What pisses me off is the smuggity smuggness of city and town dwellers consuming their way to happiness while taking jabs at the national punching bag that farming, and in particular dairy farming seems to have become.

JD, I can tell you from first hand experience that the academic environment in NZ is one of the most inbred and least objective you will see anywhere. Nothing that affects the short term profitability of agriculture is published, and any academic that speaks out against it is dealt with swiftly. Nearly the entirety of scientific undertaking in any field of the biological and environmental sciences is engineered to give industry leverage over resources. In the late 1990's Vialactia, the "research" arm of Fonterra moved in on the School of Biological Sciences at Auckland Uni under the guide of a long term mandate to commercialise as much research as possible. This entity steamrolls everything in it's path, thanks to central government interference. Everything from microbiology to neurodegenerative disease research is in thrall to this entity for access to funding.The dairy industry "milks" graduate students from the local pool and researchers are obliged to host dairy research in their labs, no matter what their area of expertise.


That waterways report is a case study in weak sampling completely hamstringing any meaningful conclusion. ".....it has generally not been possible in this report to characterise water quality during particular periods of the year when dairying impacts are likely to be accentuated (eg, channel disturbance during low flows in summer and higher nutrient delivery to waterways in winter). This is either because an intensive seasonal monitoring programme has not been undertaken, or because more data analysis is required at both the regional and national scale." So what the fuck is the point? I'll tell you what it is, kick back for another few years and do nothing. I would be embarrassed to have my name as a scientist sullied by association with that ridiculously piss-poor effort. Sorry.
That may well be the point of the report (let's do nothing for a while longer), I posted it to back my argument that there wasn't real data out there supporting claims that dairy farming intensification is causing a sudden/recent demise in water quality. That research should be done, and as you say, its a failure of central government, most likely for all the reasons you offer. I also suspect the problem is far worse in Canterbury where it sounds like intensification is at it's highest. However, it directly contrasts with my experience with dairy farming where waterways are fenced when they never were before, and where we use less nitrogen and phosphorus than we previously did.

The original article by the farmer was in response to him being bailed up by someone accusing him of various evils, without knowledge of his particular farming set up. This is what I object to. To be clear, his response was crap, but ranting at farmers is not the answer, the focus should be getting our politicians to do something about it.
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morepork
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Re: Trump

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It's a collective problem and, once again, people that know their onions are not ranting at farmers. Lobbyists for the industry are claiming farmers are entirely to blame, which is about as unsophisticated a response to the problem as it is possible to give. You are just going around in circles here.
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Re: Trump

Post by Digby »

Which Tyler wrote:
Digby wrote:I suppose it's possible Trump could claim US aid to Mexico is far higher than it is, but he might be worried about making a blatant lie
What on Earth gives you that impression?
He just seems the type to worry about these things.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vengeful Glutton »

Anyone dared to do a calc on Kiwi keyboard commando carbon emissions?

If only we could convert handwringing into a useful form of energy.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vengeful Glutton »

morepork wrote:Stay on pint VG....you risk irrelevance my little mushroom.

XXX
Says an irrelevant poster with nothing better to do all day than derail interweb threads. :lol:
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Donny osmond
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Re: RE: Re: Trump

Post by Donny osmond »

rowan wrote:This discussion seems to have gone off on a slight tangent since I last checked in a few hours ago... :?
Fucking dairy farming in new zealand.

All together now...

WHAT DO WE WANT?

A less than animated discussion about fucking cow farmers in new zealand

WHEN DO WE WANT IT?

We have a choice? Cos fucking never is right at the top of the list.

Having the plight of coos in new zealand on my phone might be the worst thing this Trump presidency has done to this point*
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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cashead
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Re: Trump

Post by cashead »

Vengeful Glutton wrote:Anyone dared to do a calc on Kiwi keyboard commando carbon emissions?

If only we could convert handwringing into a useful form of energy.
And if we were all as C00l as you are, global warming would be a thing of the past! Cool on, coolguy!
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cashead
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Re: Trump

Post by cashead »

rowan wrote:This discussion seems to have gone off on a slight tangent since I last checked in a few hours ago... :?
Has it? We're still talking about bullshit; it's just that one load comes from a bloviating orange Oompa Loompa, and the other comes from dairy farming.
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cashead
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Re: Trump

Post by cashead »

Vengeful Glutton wrote:
morepork wrote:Stay on pint VG....you risk irrelevance my little mushroom.

XXX
Says an irrelevant poster with nothing better to do all day than derail interweb threads. :lol:
Are we still talking about morepork, or have we moved on to you?
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Re: RE: Re: Trump

Post by cashead »

Donny osmond wrote:
rowan wrote:This discussion seems to have gone off on a slight tangent since I last checked in a few hours ago... :?
Fucking dairy farming in new zealand.

All together now...

WHAT DO WE WANT?

A less than animated discussion about fucking cow farmers in new zealand

WHEN DO WE WANT IT?

We have a choice? Cos fucking never is right at the top of the list.

Having the plight of coos in new zealand on my phone might be the worst thing this Trump presidency has done to this point*
You'll find that our country is the most important right now. You want to have a whine? Well then, go win the world cup.
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rowan
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Re: Trump

Post by rowan »

I was genuinely fascinated by that dairy farming discussion. Nothing to contribute. Just genuinely fascinated...
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
J Dory
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Re: Trump

Post by J Dory »

morepork wrote:It's a collective problem and, once again, people that know their onions are not ranting at farmers. Lobbyists for the industry are claiming farmers are entirely to blame, which is about as unsophisticated a response to the problem as it is possible to give. You are just going around in circles here.
I'm off to NZ on the 3rd for 3 glorious weeks. I'm gonna poo in the creek. Circle that bitches.
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morepork
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Re: Trump

Post by morepork »

JD, I will fap into your water tank.


Hey.....Vengeful Mutton....do you have any amusing internet memes for today's pro-life march in DC?
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