Super Rugby

[Lizard]

NZ teams go 14-0 v foreign opposition, including 10 BPs. Average score 40-15.

[rowan]

Very impressive but obviously a little sad for the competition. Highly unlikely the Kiwis will keep that up in SA, of course, with the Lions, Sharks & Stormers sure to scalp a couple (not sure how many they'll face there). But it's developed into a 3 tier championship, with the Kiwi on top and the Aussies on the bottom. I just can't figure out what's happened to rugby on the Red Continent. Barely a year-and-a-half ago the Wallabies were in the World Cup final...

[rowan]

The Chiefs will be without Nepo Laulala and Sam Cane when they face the Stormers at Newlands next week, with both out with concussion.

I sense a Stormers victory here, for instance . . .

[Eugene Wrayburn]

NZ teams go 14-0 v foreign opposition, including 10 BPs. Average score 40-15.

Jesus. This is not filling this Lions supporter with much confidence.

[Len]

The talent in NZ at the moment is a bit silly.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

The talent in NZ at the moment is a bit silly.

A bit? A coach could hone any of the franchises into an international team and they'd be top 10 easy and probably top 5

[morepork]

European clubs will be looking to make a few raids there.

[Len]

European countries will be looking to make a few raids there.

Fuxed

[Len]

The talent in NZ at the moment is a bit silly.

A bit? A coach could hone any of the franchises into an international team and they'd be top 10 easy and probably top 5

Potentially. Gatland couldn't. The forwards might be a bit lightweight but the backs make NH backs look like the talentless shyte that they are.

[morepork]

The Bloos could maybe replace Italy in the 6N.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

The talent in NZ at the moment is a bit silly.

A bit? A coach could hone any of the franchises into an international team and they'd be top 10 easy and probably top 5

Potentially. Gatland couldn't. The forwards might be a bit lightweight but the backs make NH backs look like the talentless shyte that they are.

I meant a good coach. Hansen or Schmidt or Jones for example.

[Len]

A bit? A coach could hone any of the franchises into an international team and they'd be top 10 easy and probably top 5

Potentially. Gatland couldn't. The forwards might be a bit lightweight but the backs make NH backs look like the talentless shyte that they are.

I meant a good coach. Hansen or Schmidt or Jones for example.

Indeed. Hopefully a couple of franchises can take some Lions scalps.

[Lizard]

Very impressive but obviously a little sad for the competition. Highly unlikely the Kiwis will keep that up in SA, of course, with the Lions, Sharks & Stormers sure to scalp a couple (not sure how many they'll face there). But it's developed into a 3 tier championship, with the Kiwi on top and the Aussies on the bottom. I just can't figure out what's happened to rugby on the Red Continent. Barely a year-and-a-half ago the Wallabies were in the World Cup final...

The Lions and the Sharks are in Africa 2 so will not play any NZ teams at all until the playoffs.

The Stormers play the Chiefs (8 April) and the Blues (19 May) in Cape Town.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Potentially. Gatland couldn't. The forwards might be a bit lightweight but the backs make NH backs look like the talentless shyte that they are.

I meant a good coach. Hansen or Schmidt or Jones for example.

Indeed. Hopefully a couple of franchises can take some Lions scalps.

I'd be very surprised if they didn't. I wouldn't be that surprised to lose all the matches against the franchises. I'd hope to pick off the Blues but the pace they can play at could give a Gatland side real problems.

[rowan]

Very impressive but obviously a little sad for the competition. Highly unlikely the Kiwis will keep that up in SA, of course, with the Lions, Sharks & Stormers sure to scalp a couple (not sure how many they'll face there). But it's developed into a 3 tier championship, with the Kiwi on top and the Aussies on the bottom. I just can't figure out what's happened to rugby on the Red Continent. Barely a year-and-a-half ago the Wallabies were in the World Cup final...

The Lions and the Sharks are in Africa 2 so will not play any NZ teams at all until the playoffs.

The Stormers play the Chiefs (8 April) and the Blues (19 May) in Cape Town.

So do Africa 1 teams face the Kiwis while Africa 2 teams from the Aussies or something? That doesn't sound very fair. I thought the inter-conference games were just selected at random, like the NFL.

[rowan]

The average margin of victory in round 6 was 21.5 points - more than three scores (and the 2 weakest sides in the championship didn't even play)! Rounds 5 & 4 averaged 15.25 and 16.25 winning margins, respectively, round 3 11.8, round 2 14.5 & round 1 11.5, giving us an overall average thus far of 15.21 - or more than two scores.

[Lizard]

So do Africa 1 teams face the Kiwis while Africa 2 teams from the Aussies or something?

Yes. They go turn about which is why the Sunwolves didn't play any NZ teams last year.

That doesn't sound very fair

That's because it isn't. Hardly anything about the format is.

I thought the inter-conference games were just selected at random, like the NFL.

Nope. I don't know how the NFL does it, but Super Rugby gives the African Conferences turn about with Aussie and NZ. Even dodgier is the selection of intra-conference match-ups. Eg NZ teams play 6 matches against their 4 fellow Kiwi teams. There is nothing published by SANZAAR (afaik) about how the 2 double-ups are chosen and I'm pretty sure it is not a random draw but driven by likely revenue.

[zer0]

The Bloos could maybe replace Italy in the 6N.

France. They are, after all, more French than the French are these days.

[rowan]

NFL is home and away against your conference rivals and the rest seems to be completely at random. I had thought that Super Rugby operated on the exact same basis with the advent of a conference system. Evidently not so . . .

[Lizard]

NFL is home and away against your conference rivals and the rest seems to be completely at random. I had thought that Super Rugby operated on the exact same basis with the advent of a conference system. Evidently not so . . .

I've had a closer look at the draws for 2016 & '17. It seems that there is some method to the madness. It looks like in the NZ conference (and I assume the same would hold for Aussie but I haven't checked), if you played an NZ team once in 2016 (regular season) them you'll play them twice this season, and vice versa.

So over two years (excluding playoffs):
SA teams play each team in their own conference 4 times (12 games), each team in the other African conference twice (8) and each team in NZ (5) and AU (5) once.
NZ/AU teams play each team in their own conference 3 times (12 games), each team in the other country's conference twice (10) and each African team once (8)

This would suggest that having playoffs and awarding a title only every second year would be fairer (without taking into account home and away variations of which I haven't got to the bottom).

What really fucks me off is that SANZAAR plainly doesn't give a shit. Compare its half-arsed format explanation http://www.sanzarrugby.com/superrugby/a ... per-rugby/ with this one from an unofficial (but far superior) website: http://www.superxv.com/format/

[Lizard]

Wikipedia says the NFL uses a non-random formula to determine fixtures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... nt_formula

[Lizard]

Guess which sport/league this one is:

"Each team plays 19 games against each of its four divisional opponents. It plays one home series and one away series, amounting to six or seven games, against the 10 other teams in its league. A team also plays one of the divisions in the other league, rotating each year, with two opponents in a three-game home series, two in a three-game away series, and one with four games split between home and away. Furthermore, each team has an interleague "natural rival" (in many cases its counterpart in the same metro area) with which it plays two home games and two away games each year."

[rowan]

That NFL formula looks a lot more balanced. Obviously they need to allow for tours in Super Rugby, which they don't in the NFL, and in theory it might not be such a bad idea to spare the Saffas a trip all the way to NZ every second year. But with the Kiwi teams being so dominant, it's just not a level playing field on this basis. Besides, it's only an hour further on the plane from Sydney to Auckland (3) than it is from Melbourne to Brisbane (2), so I'm not sure the extra travel factor is really that significant. & then if travel were such a concern, why on earth would you invite Japan?

Of course, the only question that needs to be asked, really, is how profitable the franchises are. If they're travelling long distances but drawing modest crowds, that's obviously not not going to be feasible (even if they win every game, hypothetically). By the same token, they might be substandard but if sponsorship, TV ratings and attendances are good, and revenue exceeds expenditure, then that's a viable proposition (even if they lose every game). So it's really going to come down to feasibility. SANZAAR shouldn't be carring any of these teams.

[rowan]

Guess which sport/league this one is:

"Each team plays 19 games against each of its four divisional opponents. It plays one home series and one away series, amounting to six or seven games, against the 10 other teams in its league. A team also plays one of the divisions in the other league, rotating each year, with two opponents in a three-game home series, two in a three-game away series, and one with four games split between home and away. Furthermore, each team has an interleague "natural rival" (in many cases its counterpart in the same metro area) with which it plays two home games and two away games each year."

MLB. But those guys spend most of their time standing around waiting for catches, or sitting in the dug-out waiting to bat.

Here's a Super 18 format I come up with about 20 years ago, even before I'd left New Zealand


New Zealand Conference: Blues, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Crusaders, Highlanders, North Habour.

Pacific Conference: Reds, Waratahs, Brumbies, Victoria, Western Australia, Pacific Islands.

Atlantic Conference: Cats, Bulls, Sharks, Stormers, Orange Free State, Buenos Aires.

Teams will play their conference rivals home and away. They will also meet three teams from each of the remaining conferences, meaning they will meet all inter-conference rivals biennially and host them quadrennially. They will play eight games at home and eight away each season.

The Super 18 winner will meet Europe’s club champion in an annual fixture at a neutral city such as Tokyo or Los Angeles (for promotional purposes).

Buenos Aires and the Pacific Islands franchise will cram their respective overseas commitments into two four-game tours.

Argentina and the Pacific team will be added to the Tri-Nations and the winner will meet Europe’s Six Nations champion in a World Crown game in non-World Cup years, again at a neutral city.

NB: For itinerary purposes, each conference comprises two groups to simplify year-by-year rotation of inter-conference match-ups.

NZ1/ Blue, Chiefs, N Harbour, NZ2/ Hurricanes, Crusaders, Highlanders, AUS1/ NSW, ACT, Victoria, AUS2/ Reds, W Australia, Pacific Is, SA1/ Bulls, Cats, OFS, SA2/ Stormers, Sharks, Buenos Aires.

Possibly a 2nd Argentine side could replace North Harbour in the future.

EXAMPLE ITINERARY

Week 1: NSW at Hurricanes, Victoria at Highlanders, ACT at Crusaders, N Harbour at Reds, Blues at W Australia, Chiefs at Pacific.
(Byes: Buenos Aires, Stormers, Bulls, Cats, OFS, Sharks)

Week 2: Buenos Aires at Stormers, Bulls at Cats, OFS at Sharks, Reds at Victoria, ACT at W Australia, Pacific at NSW, Blues at N Harbour, Hurricanes at Chiefs, Highlanders at Crusaders.

Week 3: Buenos Aires at OFS, Sharks at Bulls, Cats at Stormers, Pacific at ACT, W Australia at Reds, Victoria at NSW, Highlanders at N Harbour, Crusaders at Chiefs, Hurricanes at Blues.

Week 4: Buenos Aires at Cats, Stormers at Sharks, Bulls at OFS, Pacific at Victoria, NSW at W Australia, Reds at ACT, N Harbour at Hurricanes, Blues at Crusaders, Chiefs at Highlanders.

Week 5: Buenos Aires at Bulls, Cats at Sharks, OFS at Stormers, Pacific at Reds, W Australia at Victoria, Crusaders at Hurricanes, Highlanders at Blues.
(Byes: ACT, NSW, Chiefs, N Harbour)

Week 6: Sharks at Buenos Aires, Stormers at Bulls, OFS at Cats, Reds at NSW, Victoria at ACT, Crusaders at N Harbour, Blues at Chiefs, Hurricanes at Highlanders.
(Byes: Pacific, W Australia)

Week 7: NSW at Crusaders, Victoria at Hurricanes, ACT at Highlanders, N Harbour at Pacific, Blues at Reds, Chiefs at W Australia.
(Byes: Buenos Aires, Bulls, Cats, OFS, Stormers, Sharks)

Week 8: Pacific at OFS, Reds at Cats, W Australia at Bulls, Hurricanes at Sharks, Crusaders at Buenos Aires, Highlanders at Stormers, ACT at NSW, Chiefs at N Harbour.
(Byes: Blues, Victoria)

Week 9: Pacific at Bulls, Reds at OFS, W Australia at Cats, Hurricanes at Buenos Aires, Crusaders at Stormers, Highlanders at Sharks, N Harbour at Blues, NSW at Victoria
(Byes: Chiefs, ACT)

Week 10: NSW at Buenos Aires, Victoria at Stormers, ACT at Sharks, Chiefs at Cats, Blues at OFS, N Harbour at Bulls, Pacific at W Australia.
(Byes: Hurricanes, Crusaders, Highlanders, Reds)

Week 11: Bulls at Buenos Aires, Sharks at Cats, Stormers at OFS, Reds at Chiefs, W Australia at N Harbour, Pacific at Blues, Highlanders at NSW, Hurricanes at ACT, Crusaders at Victoria.

Week 12: Stormers at Buenos Aires, Cats at Bulls, Sharks at OFS, NSW at Pacific, Victoria at Reds, W Australia at ACT, Chiefs at Hurricanes, Crusaders at Highlanders.
(Byes: Blues, N Harbour)

Week 13: OFS at Buenos Aires, Bulls at Sharks, Stormers at Cats, ACT at Pacific, Reds at W Australia, N Harbour at Highlanders, Chiefs at Crusaders, Blues at Hurricanes.
(Byes: NSW, Victoria)

Week 14: Cats at Buenos Aires, Sharks at Stormers, OFS at Bulls, Victoria at Pacific, W Australia at NSW, ACT at Reds, Hurricanes at N Harbour, Crusaders at Blues, Highlanders at Chiefs.

Week 15: Buenos Aires at Sharks, Bulls at Stormers, Cats at OFS, Reds at Pacific, Victoria at W Australia, NSW at ACT, N Harbour at Chiefs, Hurricanes at Crusaders, Blues at Highlanders.

Week 16: Stormers at NSW, Sharks at Victoria, Buenos Aires at ACT, Cats at Pacific, Bulls at Reds, OFS at W Australia, N Harbour at Crusaders, Chiefs at Blues, Highlanders at Hurricanes.

Week: 17: Stormers at ACT, Sharks at NSW, Buenos Aires at Victoria, Cats at N Harbour, Bulls at Blues, OFS at Chiefs.
(Byes: Hurricanes, Crusaders, Highlanders, Reds, Pacific, W Australia)

Week 18: Stormers at Hurricanes, Sharks at Crusaders, Buenos Aires at Highlanders, Cats at Blues, Bulls at Chiefs, OFS at N Harbour, NSW at Reds, ACT at Victoria, W Australia at Pacific.

Week 19: Wildcard playoffs - lowest ranked conference winner hosts lowest ranked conference runner-up; highest ranked conference runner-up hosts second ranked conference runner-up.

Week 20: Semi-finals: Two highest ranked conference winners host winners of Week 19 playoffs.

Week 21: FINAL

[Lizard]

Given the failure of PIRA, and the current state of Auckland rugby, you might need to tweak this slightly. Perhaps a pacific island franchise would work in Super Rugby but the top national side would be necessary in the 3N/RC Comp. I don't think Harbour could support a 2nd Auckland franchise but a "central districts" side playing in New Plymouth or Hawkes Bay might work.