Lions

[BBD]

12 Welsh and only 2 Scots after that 6N????

I don't know why I expected anything different under Gatland but for fecks sake

[Adder]

Hogg and Seymour it is.

Yeah. Good of them to give Staurt a run

We weren't expecting to be respected.

[Wylie Coyote]

What maddens me is the fact this doesn't even warrant a mention. Scotland just does not figure in the radar of B&I Lions rugby at all. They don't even realise that it might be an issue. The worst ever representation by a nation in British Lions history and not even a question afterwards. Disgusted. The SRU should absolutely NOT be tweeting congrats to Hogg & Seymour. Sure they've done well against a fierce headwind but these Lions selectors should not be given any legitimacy at all from official Scottish rugby sources.

[Cameo]

I wouldn't be using Earles outpacing 1/2p as an argument when Kearney rounded Hogg in the Ireland game.

Few of those above impact scottish selection.

1/2p will be 2nd/3rd full back not wing.

North may block our wings.

JD is taking JJ's place. Jones may have had a shot pre injury.

Faletau is proven class and has been playing pretty well when I've seen him play.

Warburton is going as a 6/7. Watson is only a 7. He v Tipuric is fairly close.

AWJ shouldn't be going. But I'd take Launchbury. I assume that's Borrhwicks choice.

you missed my point, if they were scottish we would have eliminated them for those reasons, because they are not we use other metrics to justify them


How many of those lads (Falatau) aside would you have over scottish players

Hogg v 1/2p
NOrth v Seymore
JD over Dunbar/Jones/Scott/Benet
AWJ over either Gray


Falatau would get in, but his form aint been great this year and we would be looking at dropping him, wait he did get dropped for Wales

Jamie Roberts cant even get in the wales team but the guy keeping him out isnt even on any radar

I'm not looking at this as Scotland v the rest. I'm looking at the best squad.

Hogg v 1/2p? Both will be in the squad.
NOrth v Seymour? If have both in swiad
JD over Dunbar/Jones/Scott/Benet? This comparrision makes little sense. JD is a 13. Dunbar doesn't play there at international level, Bennett is injured and done nothing at international level for a while, Scott can't get picked for Scotland and Jones may well have gone but is injured. Joseph is the one missing out not a Scot.
AWJ over either Gray. Again, launchbury looks like the one to miss out not a gray.

Dunbar is missing out if Roberts gets picked.

Slightly related note is Gray Snr and Scott injured? Not seen them play for a while.

While I think the limited representation is partly unlucky just because our best players are in the strongest positions Im not sure i buy a lot of that. Dunbar is stronger than two of the 12s and one of the 13s. Both Grays are better than AWJ and Henderson and some of the others too Id say.

If Cole and Sinkler are in then Fagerson should even have been in the conversation.

And Dan Biggar wouldnt get into the Scotland team.

Im not saying all these should have resulted in Scottish players being in but all could. We also had other outside chances who had stronger claims than a couple in there

[Adder]

What maddens me is the fact this doesn't even warrant a mention. Scotland just does not figure in the radar of B&I Lions rugby at all. They don't even realise that it might be an issue. The worst ever representation by a nation in British Lions history and not even a question afterwards. Disgusted. The SRU should absolutely NOT be tweeting congrats to Hogg & Seymour. Sure they've done well against a fierce headwind but these Lions selectors should not be given any legitimacy at all from official Scottish rugby sources.

The SRU is hardly a rebellious organisation.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Time to turn our attention to Singapore, Suva & Aus (forget the city) lads. Really excited for our first tour under Toony.

[Jps]

I have a hard time understanding the inclusion of Biggar & Davies based on any kind of recent form, and Lawes over Launchbury is strange to me as well.

Let me just put it this way: we're not frightening the Kiwis with that squad. As for leaving out Hartley- that's sensible.

[whatisthejava]

I have a hard time understanding the inclusion of Biggar & Davies based on any kind of recent form, and Lawes over Launchbury is strange to me as well.

Let me just put it this way: we're not frightening the Kiwis with that squad. As for leaving out Hartley- that's sensible.

Huricanes, Crusaders, All Blacks will beat the lions

That team is Gatland 101, problem is after running at the AL they will tackle you low, take the ball and still have time to slap you before running off and scoring

[Lizard]

There are more players in the Lions squad born in New Zealand than play for Scotland.

[Wylie Coyote]

When Hogg & Seymour are asked the inevitable questions "What do you think about being the only two Scots on tour?" they should reply "I am not going to answer that question." - Not "it's tough, lots of good players" guff. Just straight out refuse to answer that question.

[Big D]

Looking at the squad. ADJ probably has to go. Very little Lions experience in that tight 5. 2 and a half tours without him in there.

Actually, very few previous tourists in the forwards.

[bruce]

When push comes to shove, coaches are going fall on the side of players they know. No Scottish representation in the coaching team (although it was offered), is probably the main reason there isn't more Scots in the squad.

[Wylie Coyote]

When push comes to shove, coaches are going fall on the side of players they know. No Scottish representation in the coaching team (although it was offered), is probably the main reason there isn't more Scots in the squad.

Aye "offered" as in asking our national coach Townsend to be ROBERT HOWLEY's assistant? That was a clear insult in an of itself. It is as if Gatland has gone out of his way to destroy the Lions concept as far as Scottish rugby is concerned.

[whatisthejava]

When push comes to shove, coaches are going fall on the side of players they know. No Scottish representation in the coaching team (although it was offered), is probably the main reason there isn't more Scots in the squad.

Breakdown by if Scotland has beaten them this year

13 Lions out of 39 have not lost to a Scottish team; all blacks must be shitting it

66% lions beaten by a Scottish team

Jamie George (England), nope 2/2
Maro Itoje (England), nope 2/2
George Kruis (England), nope 1/1
Courtney Lawes (England), - nope 1/1
Billy Vunipola (England), - nope 2/2 against Scotland
Mako Vunipola (England), - nope 2/2 against Scotland
Elliot Daly (England), nope
Owen Farrell (England), nope
Jonathan Joseph (England), nope
Jack Nowell (England), nope
Jared Payne (Ireland), nope - injured
Ben Te'o (England), (nope)
Anthony Watson (England), (nope)



Rory Best (Ireland), Scotland
Dan Cole (England), Glasgow twice
Taulupe Faletau (Wales), scotland
Tadhg Furlong (Ireland), scotland
Iain Henderson (Ireland), scotland
Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), scotland
Joe Marler (England), - Edinburgh
Jack McGrath (Ireland), - Scotland
Ross Moriarty (Wales), - Scotland
Sean O'Brien (Ireland), - Scotland
Peter O'Mahony (Ireland), - Scotland
Ken Owens (Wales), -Scotland
Kyle Sinckler (England), - Edinburgh
CJ Stander (Ireland), - Scotland
Justin Tipuric (Wales), - Scotland
Sam Warburton (Wales) - Scotland

Backs:

Dan Biggar (Wales), Scotland
Jonathan Davies (Wales), Scotland
Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), Scotland
Robbie Henshaw (Ireland), scotland
Conor Murray (Ireland), scotland
George North (Wales), scotland
Jonathan Sexton (Ireland), scotland
Rhys Webb (Wales), Scotland
Liam Williams (Wales), - Scotland
Ben Youngs (England) (2) Glasgow

[bruce]

When push comes to shove, coaches are going fall on the side of players they know. No Scottish representation in the coaching team (although it was offered), is probably the main reason there isn't more Scots in the squad.

Breakdown by if Scotland has beaten them this year

13 Lions out of 39 have not lost to a Scottish team; all blacks must be shitting it

66% lions beaten by a Scottish team

Jamie George (England), nope 2/2
Maro Itoje (England), nope 2/2
George Kruis (England), nope 1/1
Courtney Lawes (England), - nope 1/1
Billy Vunipola (England), - nope 2/2 against Scotland
Mako Vunipola (England), - nope 2/2 against Scotland
Elliot Daly (England), nope
Owen Farrell (England), nope
Jonathan Joseph (England), nope
Jack Nowell (England), nope
Jared Payne (Ireland), nope - injured
Ben Te'o (England), (nope)
Anthony Watson (England), (nope)



Rory Best (Ireland), Scotland
Dan Cole (England), Glasgow twice
Taulupe Faletau (Wales), scotland
Tadhg Furlong (Ireland), scotland
Iain Henderson (Ireland), scotland
Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), scotland
Joe Marler (England), - Edinburgh
Jack McGrath (Ireland), - Scotland
Ross Moriarty (Wales), - Scotland
Sean O'Brien (Ireland), - Scotland
Peter O'Mahony (Ireland), - Scotland
Ken Owens (Wales), -Scotland
Kyle Sinckler (England), - Edinburgh
CJ Stander (Ireland), - Scotland
Justin Tipuric (Wales), - Scotland
Sam Warburton (Wales) - Scotland

Backs:

Dan Biggar (Wales), Scotland
Jonathan Davies (Wales), Scotland
Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), Scotland
Robbie Henshaw (Ireland), scotland
Conor Murray (Ireland), scotland
George North (Wales), scotland
Jonathan Sexton (Ireland), scotland
Rhys Webb (Wales), Scotland
Liam Williams (Wales), - Scotland
Ben Youngs (England) (2) Glasgow

I don't really get the point of this?! If you had 41 Scottish players making up the squad, you'd have in all probability 100% of them losing to Welsh and Irish teams certainly and high percentage to English teams.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

When push comes to shove, coaches are going fall on the side of players they know. No Scottish representation in the coaching team (although it was offered), is probably the main reason there isn't more Scots in the squad.

Breakdown by if Scotland has beaten them this year

13 Lions out of 39 have not lost to a Scottish team; all blacks must be shitting it

66% lions beaten by a Scottish team

Jamie George (England), nope 2/2
Maro Itoje (England), nope 2/2
George Kruis (England), nope 1/1
Courtney Lawes (England), - nope 1/1
Billy Vunipola (England), - nope 2/2 against Scotland
Mako Vunipola (England), - nope 2/2 against Scotland
Elliot Daly (England), nope
Owen Farrell (England), nope
Jonathan Joseph (England), nope
Jack Nowell (England), nope
Jared Payne (Ireland), nope - injured
Ben Te'o (England), (nope)
Anthony Watson (England), (nope)



Rory Best (Ireland), Scotland
Dan Cole (England), Glasgow twice
Taulupe Faletau (Wales), scotland
Tadhg Furlong (Ireland), scotland
Iain Henderson (Ireland), scotland
Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), scotland
Joe Marler (England), - Edinburgh
Jack McGrath (Ireland), - Scotland
Ross Moriarty (Wales), - Scotland
Sean O'Brien (Ireland), - Scotland
Peter O'Mahony (Ireland), - Scotland
Ken Owens (Wales), -Scotland
Kyle Sinckler (England), - Edinburgh
CJ Stander (Ireland), - Scotland
Justin Tipuric (Wales), - Scotland
Sam Warburton (Wales) - Scotland

Backs:

Dan Biggar (Wales), Scotland
Jonathan Davies (Wales), Scotland
Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), Scotland
Robbie Henshaw (Ireland), scotland
Conor Murray (Ireland), scotland
George North (Wales), scotland
Jonathan Sexton (Ireland), scotland
Rhys Webb (Wales), Scotland
Liam Williams (Wales), - Scotland
Ben Youngs (England) (2) Glasgow

Hi Java. Did you forget to include the Welsh & Irish club results against Scottish teams?

[whatisthejava]

When push comes to shove, coaches are going fall on the side of players they know. No Scottish representation in the coaching team (although it was offered), is probably the main reason there isn't more Scots in the squad.

Breakdown by if Scotland has beaten them this year

13 Lions out of 39 have not lost to a Scottish team; all blacks must be shitting it

66% lions beaten by a Scottish team

Jamie George (England), nope 2/2
Maro Itoje (England), nope 2/2
George Kruis (England), nope 1/1
Courtney Lawes (England), - nope 1/1
Billy Vunipola (England), - nope 2/2 against Scotland
Mako Vunipola (England), - nope 2/2 against Scotland
Elliot Daly (England), nope
Owen Farrell (England), nope
Jonathan Joseph (England), nope
Jack Nowell (England), nope
Jared Payne (Ireland), nope - injured
Ben Te'o (England), (nope)
Anthony Watson (England), (nope)



Rory Best (Ireland), Scotland
Dan Cole (England), Glasgow twice
Taulupe Faletau (Wales), scotland
Tadhg Furlong (Ireland), scotland
Iain Henderson (Ireland), scotland
Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), scotland
Joe Marler (England), - Edinburgh
Jack McGrath (Ireland), - Scotland
Ross Moriarty (Wales), - Scotland
Sean O'Brien (Ireland), - Scotland
Peter O'Mahony (Ireland), - Scotland
Ken Owens (Wales), -Scotland
Kyle Sinckler (England), - Edinburgh
CJ Stander (Ireland), - Scotland
Justin Tipuric (Wales), - Scotland
Sam Warburton (Wales) - Scotland

Backs:

Dan Biggar (Wales), Scotland
Jonathan Davies (Wales), Scotland
Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), Scotland
Robbie Henshaw (Ireland), scotland
Conor Murray (Ireland), scotland
George North (Wales), scotland
Jonathan Sexton (Ireland), scotland
Rhys Webb (Wales), Scotland
Liam Williams (Wales), - Scotland
Ben Youngs (England) (2) Glasgow

I don't really get the point of this?! If you had 41 Scottish players making up the squad, you'd have in all probability 100% of them losing to Welsh and Irish teams certainly and high percentage to English teams.

How do you expect to win against the best in the world when you select players who cant beat Scotland,

hardly a ringing endorcement for the talent going to NZ

[bruce]

How do you expect to win against the best in the world when you select players who cant beat Scotland,

hardly a ringing endorcement for the talent going to NZ

Logic seems a bit fecked Java, if you benchmarking players as should be able to beat Scotland, therefore insinuating Scotland are shit. How does adding more Scottish players help?

For what its worth I had 5 Scots in a squad of 36.

[whatisthejava]

How do you expect to win against the best in the world when you select players who cant beat Scotland,

hardly a ringing endorcement for the talent going to NZ

Logic seems a bit fecked Java, if you benchmarking players as should be able to beat Scotland, therefore insinuating Scotland are shit. How does adding more Scottish players help?

For what its worth I had 5 Scots in a squad of 36.

Im benchmarking that if the players that were picked were the best available then they 66% would not have lost to scottish teams at international or european level , especially considering that if these were the best in britain then why is their win rate against players not good enough to make it so poor

[Mikey Brown]

I don't understand this particular argument but I'm certainly enjoying reading it.

I don't feel there's a whole lot to be said about it but I really would question whether Gatland even watched the Scotland v Wales and Scotland v Ireland games.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Java you seem quite content to use the Sarries v Glasgow game to support your argument for English players. Could you please re-calculate using the Munster results against Glasgow from Europe?

[whatisthejava]

Java you seem quite content to use the Sarries v Glasgow game to support your argument for English players. Could you please re-calculate using the Munster results against Glasgow from Europe?

you can manipulate the stats anyway you want (i did) the fact remains that at either international or European level most of those guys have lost to players deemed not good enough,

i could come up with lots of stats to say the welsh deserved their high numbers but its pretty much bullsh!t, its an interesting stat that demonstrates the fact the coaches picked who they wanted to go with ,

The welsh media have already turned round and said that the only way to beat the blacks is to bash them into submission, whatever you do dont tell the irish

[sharvey44]

Java you seem quite content to use the Sarries v Glasgow game to support your argument for English players. Could you please re-calculate using the Munster results against Glasgow from Europe?

By the same token you could use the Glasgow v Leicester (both legs) or even Edinburgh v Quins (both legs).

[switchskier]

Dan Biggar as a lions ten? I know i picked Gatland to do it but now that i see it i just cant get my head around it.

Really dissapointing for Gray jr. Thought he deserved to tour, especially in such a massive squad.

[switchskier]

Actually I'm now worried that Hogg is going to be asked to chase high balls all day long and come back a different player. Seymour would be perfect for that but will only get 40 minutes for the dirt trackers somewhere and never touch the ball.

Why rugby? Why do you do this to me?