Raggs wrote:We're missing 16 already. I'd not rest anyone else, there's plenty of scope for new blood with those missing. Argentina will be a tough tour, and sending a bunch of kids to get smashed won't help anyone.
Maybe be a bit looser on the starters than usual (Brown in the 23 shirt, Hask/Robshaw on the bench) to give some youngsters a starting berth, but don't leave anyone at home (at least not for me).
But those not off to the Lions are generally in the positions where we need to see youngsters and new options - hooker, flank, scrum half, full-back. What do we gain from watching Hartley, Robshaw, Haskell, Care and Brown?
So broadly most of that lot, certainly expect Underhill to go, suspect Solomona might as well, though I don't really think he should.
ESPN were saying that Hartley will be captain, but that was an interpretation of Borthwick saying he would have an England tour to work towards rather than an official announcement.
Yeah that backrow might be great in a few years but it's a bit much to throw them all together right now with key players missing elsewhere.
Also very happy to look at other options at 9 but seems it's two years wasted with Care on the bench if we don't even give him a start now. Whether he gets the start and is actually good or is totally useless, and dropped forever, I'd call it progress either way.
Similarly with Hughes. Up your game massively or do one.
JellyHead wrote:It's going to be an insight into Eddies philosophy. He wanted to build a winning habit. He did. He wanted to bring in some younger players. He did. Now what will be interesting is whether he goes back to Goode, Barritt etc as experienced campaigners who, lets be fair, as 3rd fourth choices aren't bad, and they will be up to the job against Argentina. Or does he go for broke and replace the Lions call ups with promising youngsters even if it means trying them in different positions.
Absolutely not for me. A recall for Barritt would be a massive backwards step. Same goes for others who have no chance of making the squad for Japan.
I'd go for:
1. Genge / Mullan / Catt
2. Taylor / Cowan-Dickie
3. H. Williams / Hill / Brookes
4. Symons / Ewels
5. Launchbury (c) / Attwood
6. Robshaw / Fearns*
7. B. Curry / Haskell
8. Hughes / Morgan
9. Care / Robson
10. Ford / Lozowski
11. May / Yarde
12. Slade / Tompkins
13. Marchant / James
14. Wade / Solomona
15. Woodward / Brown
IMO, that's the right balance of experience and experimentation.
Mikey Brown wrote:Yeah that backrow might be great in a few years but it's a bit much to throw them all together right now with key players missing elsewhere.
Also very happy to look at other options at 9 but seems it's two years wasted with Care on the bench if we don't even give him a start now. Whether he gets the start and is actually good or is totally useless, and dropped forever, I'd call it progress either way.
Similarly with Hughes. Up your game massively or do one.
Sunk cost fallacy that!
p.s. If he goes back to Barritt and Goode he's a cretin. The purpose of this tour are to find the guys who'll make up the rest of the 45 international choice options we want come 2019. Barritt and Goode have proven beyond doubt they're not the quality we want.
Mikey Brown wrote:Also very happy to look at other options at 9 but seems it's two years wasted with Care on the bench...
Why go any further than that? It has been two years wasted and picking Care to start won't gain us any new knowledge. We already know what Care brings - a solid, average performance that occasionally veers towards very good before reverting to the mean - and he's not suddenly going to blossom into a top level scrum half.
He's been a safe pair of hands for the 20 shirt while other areas have been being worked on, but there's no point in pretending that he's the future for England at 9.
Mikey Brown wrote:Also very happy to look at other options at 9 but seems it's two years wasted with Care on the bench...
Why go any further than that? It has been two years wasted and picking Care to start won't gain us any new knowledge. We already know what Care brings - a solid, average performance that occasionally veers towards very good before reverting to the mean - and he's not suddenly going to blossom into a top level scrum half.
He's been a safe pair of hands for the 20 shirt while other areas have been being worked on, but there's no point in pretending that he's the future for England at 9.
Puja
Who would you take then? Robson is nailed on you'd hope. Spencer has stank out the place the last couple of weeks (I think Henry Taylor will eventually usurp him at Sarries). I share the Maunder love but I'd rather he went to the JWC, and if he didn't I don't want him being one injury away from first choice so I'd want a third option. Simpson is an option but is just a less experienced version of Care. Cook, no. Harrison, no. L Dickson, not until he's had some time at Bedford under his belt. K Dickson, he's been away from Bedford for too long. Mitchell, Braley, Baldwin, hell no. Young, hahahaha.
Mikey Brown wrote:Also very happy to look at other options at 9 but seems it's two years wasted with Care on the bench...
Why go any further than that? It has been two years wasted and picking Care to start won't gain us any new knowledge. We already know what Care brings - a solid, average performance that occasionally veers towards very good before reverting to the mean - and he's not suddenly going to blossom into a top level scrum half.
He's been a safe pair of hands for the 20 shirt while other areas have been being worked on, but there's no point in pretending that he's the future for England at 9.
Puja
Who would you take then? Robson is nailed on you'd hope. Spencer has stank out the place the last couple of weeks (I think Henry Taylor will eventually usurp him at Sarries). I share the Maunder love but I'd rather he went to the JWC, and if he didn't I don't want him being one injury away from first choice so I'd want a third option. Simpson is an option but is just a less experienced version of Care. Cook, no. Harrison, no. L Dickson, not until he's had some time at Bedford under his belt. K Dickson, he's been away from Bedford for too long. Mitchell, Braley, Baldwin, hell no. Young, hahahaha.
I'd take Robson, Spencer and Maunder myself. The latter on the same basis as I want the Currys - I want them in the setup ASAP and under Eddie's influence for development. As for the other two, I'm far from convinced by either, but at least it'd be a sink or swim to see if it's worth sinking any more time into them. If they sink, then it's Youngs/Care all the way through till/if Maunder, Townsend and Taylor mature.
Puja wrote:
Why go any further than that? It has been two years wasted and picking Care to start won't gain us any new knowledge. We already know what Care brings - a solid, average performance that occasionally veers towards very good before reverting to the mean - and he's not suddenly going to blossom into a top level scrum half.
He's been a safe pair of hands for the 20 shirt while other areas have been being worked on, but there's no point in pretending that he's the future for England at 9.
Puja
Who would you take then? Robson is nailed on you'd hope. Spencer has stank out the place the last couple of weeks (I think Henry Taylor will eventually usurp him at Sarries). I share the Maunder love but I'd rather he went to the JWC, and if he didn't I don't want him being one injury away from first choice so I'd want a third option. Simpson is an option but is just a less experienced version of Care. Cook, no. Harrison, no. L Dickson, not until he's had some time at Bedford under his belt. K Dickson, he's been away from Bedford for too long. Mitchell, Braley, Baldwin, hell no. Young, hahahaha.
I'd take Robson, Spencer and Maunder myself. The latter on the same basis as I want the Currys - I want them in the setup ASAP and under Eddie's influence for development. As for the other two, I'm far from convinced by either, but at least it'd be a sink or swim to see if it's worth sinking any more time into them. If they sink, then it's Youngs/Care all the way through till/if Maunder, Townsend and Taylor mature.
Puja
Fair enough. I'm not sure Spencer's performances demand a spot above Care. Where Maunder plays this summer is purely a matter of opinion over development rather than an argument over quality. Regardless of the candidates qualities, I just don't want a collective scrumhalf melt down due to having three complete rookies and no experienced backup.
Think Care has to go. You want at least one experienced SH on the trip. The other 2 should be Robson and Spencer.
Maunder should go with the U20's.
I'll put forward a possible bolter, Townsend at Exeter. He may not be starting but he really does inject pace into a game, has a good service and, crucially, can make and finish breaks. He might be worth a punt.
Renniks wrote:I'd love to see what Jones could do with a XV of:
Genge, Taylor, Hill
Ewels, Launchbury
Underhill, Curry, Mercer
Robson, Lozowski,
May, Slade, Marchant, Wade,
Haley
But equally,
I'd be happy to see a XV with
Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, and Ford in
Players I'd rather not see tour
Hartley, Wood, Care, and Brown
That looks pretty good.
We don't know what Eddie's approach will be in several areas. Will he stick to his AI plans? Will he prioritise looking for alternatives to perceived areas of weakness (e.g. 12, 7)?
Also, how will he react to Gatland omitting Hartley and Launchbury? Effectively, Eddie is being told he is wrong about those two. Might he seek to prove a point, especially as George, Kruis, Itoje and Lawes might not play for England again till next year's 6N.
Finally, I wonder if he needs to think about injuries. The jamboree usually breaks quite a few. Does Eddie plan for a worst-case scenario of say losing his 5 most important players long-term? Argue about who they might be but going into the build-up to the next RWC without Marler, M Vunipola, Farrell, George and Daly, for example, might make the Argentina games a meaningful 'what if?' exercise.
Mikey Brown wrote:Also very happy to look at other options at 9 but seems it's two years wasted with Care on the bench...
Why go any further than that? It has been two years wasted and picking Care to start won't gain us any new knowledge. We already know what Care brings - a solid, average performance that occasionally veers towards very good before reverting to the mean - and he's not suddenly going to blossom into a top level scrum half.
He's been a safe pair of hands for the 20 shirt while other areas have been being worked on, but there's no point in pretending that he's the future for England at 9.
Puja
I don't know that it's about him being the future, but seeing if he can be a slightly better supply line for the backs we have that are actually good. We don't know what he can actually offer as a starter under Jones, the way many players I'd previously dismissed (Hask, Hartley, Wood, May, Youngs) got several chances to do and in some cases improved massively.
I don't accept that Italy game as proof of anything. If he's not good enough when actually given the chance we can boot him and be happy with it but we need to know now.
This hinges massively on the polarising opinion of Youngs. Jones clearly doesn't think he's that bad, but surely he'll come unstuck eventually. We've narrowly avoided game-losing blunders from him several times.
Youngs will obviously come back and Robson will be given an extended look (I would think) so surely this is the best time to have a look and know for sure if we need to be eyeing up the alternative 3rd scrumhalf option for the World Cup.
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap), Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps), James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped), Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps), Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps), Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps).
Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps), Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps), Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped), Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped), George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps), Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped), Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped), Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped), Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped), Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped), Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped).
