JWC

[twitchy]

Yeah that was a weird game all round. I suppose I've been spoiled watching the senior team with a rock solid set piece. We were throwing possession away like it was passed it's sell by date.

Like scrumhead says Aspland-Robinson will be a huge loss. Every time he got the ball it seemed like he was beating the entire team it looked ridiculous at times.

It's actually a bit of a shame for the team they have lost so many to injury (if you add in the lads in argentina with eddie) surely we could have given NZ a run for their money.

[Digby]

Next time I'll look up the S4C number. Couldn't find anything on the facebook page, 'tis possible one would need to log in of course and that would be an issue. The stream was seemingly up on the WR site, but simply said not available in your territory (which it didn't the other day) and that makes no sense anyway if you could watch it on FB

[TheNomad]

Yeah that was a weird game all round. I suppose I've been spoiled watching the senior team with a rock solid set piece. We were throwing possession away like it was passed it's sell by date.

Like scrumhead says Aspland-Robinson will be a huge loss. Every time he got the ball it seemed like he was beating the entire team it looked ridiculous at times.

It's actually a bit of a shame for the team they have lost so many to injury (if you add in the lads in argentina with eddie) surely we could have given NZ a run for their money.

This is an outstanding crop of youngsters, but (as you say) through injury and senior call ups I think they'll struggle to match the feats of prior years.

As a means to an end though, I think in time we'll look back and say it's another good year for English youngsters

Some real talent regularly coming through now

[Puja]

Except at hooker, where we still don't seem to be able to produce an U20 who can hit a cow's arse with a banjo.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

hit a cow's arse with a banjo.

Puja

I know the tournaments in Georgia but there's no need to belittle the locals' hobbies.

[Scrumhead]

Except at hooker, where we still don't seem to be able to produce an U20 who can hit a cow's arse with a banjo.

Puja

Potentially Jack Walker if he's ever fit ...

[Mellsblue]

Except at hooker, where we still don't seem to be able to produce an U20 who can hit a cow's arse with a banjo.

Puja

Potentially Jack Walker if he's ever fit ...

He will be my pick for Breakthrough Player of the Year until such time!

[Timbo]

Hooker not a position the senior team have to worry about for a while though, with George, LCD, Taylor all capped and under 26...Tom Dunn looks a talent too, only 24.

[fivepointer]

Irritates the hell out of me when I see hookers who display such poor basics. Throwing is not that difficult and any player who rises to this level really should be able to hit the right spot pretty much every time.

Our final pool game is against Australia. We have 10 pts, they have 9. NZ will top their pool unless something very dramatic happens. Other games of interest are - France (6) v Georgia and SA (7) v Argentina (6).

[Digby]

Always struck me that throwing in is exceptionally difficult.

[Puja]

Irritates the hell out of me when I see hookers who display such poor basics. Throwing is not that difficult and any player who rises to this level really should be able to hit the right spot pretty much every time.

Our final pool game is against Australia. We have 10 pts, they have 9. NZ will top their pool unless something very dramatic happens. Other games of interest are - France (6) v Georgia and SA (7) v Argentina (6).

I will note that, while I agree with you that the basics are shocking, throwing is actually bloody difficult - the mental pressure is on a par with goal-kicking, with the added dificulty that the target isn't there to aim at when you release the ball, might not go to the same spot every time, and the fun of opposition interference.

But yes, the basic skills are shocking in our recent U20 hookers.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Surely pictures were provided by the host broadcaster in Georgia?

[Scrumhead]

I've played a lot of my rugby at Hooker. Throwing is really hard. The technique of throwing is hard enough, not to mention the challenge of timing it with the jumper. The mental aspect is massively underestimated too. It's almost assumed that winning your own ball is a given - particularly if you've kicked for touch in a penalty situation. Also, in amateur rugby, the crowd is normally about 5ft behind you. If you're having a bad day, it's horrible.

Flanker is much more fun/less pressured too.

[fivepointer]

I played half a season at hooker and the odd game in my later years. Practised a lot (like throwing hundreds of balls at a goal post) and was able to get reasonably proficient. Didnt find it technically that demanding (you are static after all) and was able to get the ball in roughly the right spot most of the time.
Young lads under expert tutelage in academies should really be able to nail down this skill.

[Digby]

I played half a season at hooker and the odd game in my later years. Practised a lot (like throwing hundreds of balls at a goal post) and was able to get reasonably proficient. Didnt find it technically that demanding (you are static after all) and was able to get the ball in roughly the right spot most of the time.
Young lads under expert tutelage in academies should really be able to nail down this skill.

That's not really relevant though, that you've thrown a ball slowly into a post. The speed and accuracy that's required at the top levels to secure ball before you come under pressure and prevent the other side taking your ball makes the action pretty much divorced from the levels most of us have played at

[Puja]

I played half a season at hooker and the odd game in my later years. Practised a lot (like throwing hundreds of balls at a goal post) and was able to get reasonably proficient. Didnt find it technically that demanding (you are static after all) and was able to get the ball in roughly the right spot most of the time.
Young lads under expert tutelage in academies should really be able to nail down this skill.

The difference is that, at amateur level, a) your players don't have to dance back and forth before jumping and b) the opposition don't jump that high either. Your target area is likely a good couple of feet - if you throw to your jumper's head height, it's still unlikely to be stolen. At the top level, the target area will be the very top of the jumper's arc, about the size of two hands. Anything lower runs the risk of being intercepted and the psychological pressure is inherently higher.

To be frank, your example is like a Sunday league footballer asking why internationals don't always score from free kicks, because he manages to at his level most of the time.

Puja

[Digby]

I'd also add you probably can't throw hundreds of balls in practice at the pro level, not on the same day anyway. The explosive drive through the core of the body would take too much of a toll and even if you didn't get injured you'd be getting slower and slower to the point it wasn't effective training anyway.

[fivepointer]

Point I'm making is that the skill is not that hard to master. Its the same technique for guys playing in domestic rugby and guys at a senior level. Its quite a simple mechanical action that can be repeated. Every hooker, whether they be a an international or just starting playing at hooker as a teenager, will employ exactly the same method, which can be refined through practice. Sure your target areas will be different, and of course the higher up you go there is more movement by your jumpers and the pressure far greater, but the basic requirements are the same.

[Digby]

That's like saying if anyone practices they could get as good as Maradona at keep up. And I know whilst I used to be able to do more than a hundred keep ups with a football and at one point likely practiced every day I was miles off being Maradona, and he could do keep ups with a tennis ball and even a golf ball, I might on my best occasions have managed 20 keep ups with a tennis ball, but a golf ball? Forget about it

Executing a skill not just to a reasonable degree for a normal person Vs but rather performing at the elite level just isn't the same thing.

[Mellsblue]

Surely pictures were provided by the host broadcaster in Georgia?

How dare you. You've forgotten the golden rule of rugby: if something good happened in rugby it was the Kiwis.

[fivepointer]

We're a bit at cross purposes here.
I'm saying mastering the basic skill is not that difficult.
You're saying performing that under pressure can be demanding.
I'd say both are correct.
I'd also say that having got to play at international level, you should be used to some pressure and be able to perform a core skill to a reasonable degree.

[Scrumhead]

The action of throwing the ball in to the lineout itself is not especially difficult and I would agree that it is reasonable to expect a hooker representing their country (at any level) should be able to do that.

However, even discounting pressure as a factor, timing is the most difficult aspect to master and is not an individual thing. Even if your throw is perfectly aimed at where your jumper's hands should be at the top of his leap, this doesn't account for the jumper and lifter's timing being off/disrupted by the opposition. A successful lineout relies upon the hooker, the jumper, the caller (not necessarily the same person) and the lifters all operating in sync. At amateur level it feels fairly quick so at test level I would imagine it's unbelievably split second stuff.

Referring specifically to the U20s, they had a bad combination of poor timing between the hooker, the lifters and the jumpers and some decidedly dodgy throwing. Not great all round.

[Puja]

Point I'm making is that the skill is not that hard to master. Its the same technique for guys playing in domestic rugby and guys at a senior level. Its quite a simple mechanical action that can be repeated. Every hooker, whether they be a an international or just starting playing at hooker as a teenager, will employ exactly the same method, which can be refined through practice. Sure your target areas will be different, and of course the higher up you go there is more movement by your jumpers and the pressure far greater, but the basic requirements are the same.

Most sporting actions are simple mechanical actions that can be repeated. The trick is getting the right mechanical action to match a changing situation. When the difference is centimetres between OppositionSteal-PerfectTake-Overthrow, if you pick the wrong mechanical action then you're screwed.

Puja

[TheNomad]

Not that arguing over whether throwing is difficult isn't fascinating, but sort of getting back on topic...

Malins looks really bloody doesn't he? I know he's played 15 but I think he looks more like a 10 to me, which is a shame from an England sense as we seem to producing a truck load of them, and not enough 12s or 15s...

A seriously talented player though

[Scrumhead]

Malins looks very good indeed. He's a good playmaker but is also a running threat and kicks well off the tee and or of hand. Hard to see him getting game time at 10 for Saracens though (or 15 for that matter ...).

Brophy-Clews looks decent at 12. I'm not sure if it's a long term move given he'd be competing with Johnny Williams back at Irish, but it's a good combination at U20s level. That said, Will Butler always looks very good whenever I've seen him play.