Adam_P wrote:I think there's a danger that Itoje believed all the hype around him when he first broke onto the international scene, and thinks he's the real deal. If he wasn't so hyped up by everyone he would continue really working on his game and improving, but all he seems to have done is stagnate since his first few caps. The main thing he seems to have worked on is how loudly he screams everytime a penalty is won. This is in stark contrast to Lawes, who seemed to react to Kruis and Itoje taking the second row over really well, and improving the weaker areas of his game and is now playing his best ever rugby. I think Itoje sitting out a few internationals with Kruis, Launch and Lawes taking control might be the best thing long term.
You have been paying to much attention to what rival fans have been saying. He is a 22 year old second row. If shouting at penalties is the worst they can come up with he is doing some thing right. Lawes is a mature international now and is performing to his potential after slipping for a while albeit with a string of injuries.
I think there's more than a little bit of truth to it - Itoje has slipped from his first season, which is not to be unexpected. I think this Lions tour will do him good.
It's something in favour of keeping all our locks at lock - when Lawes fluctuated at the start of his career, he kept getting selected due to lack of options. Itoje will hopefully get bumped to the bench and will come back better for having had to fight for his spot.
Adam_P wrote:I think there's a danger that Itoje believed all the hype around him when he first broke onto the international scene, and thinks he's the real deal. If he wasn't so hyped up by everyone he would continue really working on his game and improving, but all he seems to have done is stagnate since his first few caps. The main thing he seems to have worked on is how loudly he screams everytime a penalty is won. This is in stark contrast to Lawes, who seemed to react to Kruis and Itoje taking the second row over really well, and improving the weaker areas of his game and is now playing his best ever rugby. I think Itoje sitting out a few internationals with Kruis, Launch and Lawes taking control might be the best thing long term.
You have been paying to much attention to what rival fans have been saying.
Or I've just been watching games he's playing in? The whole Saracens screaming with joy at everything is embarrassing, and I can imagine infuriating to be on the opposing team. I did enjoy in the Quins Saracens game towards the end of the season when Marler did it back to them.
Adam_P wrote:I think there's a danger that Itoje believed all the hype around him when he first broke onto the international scene, and thinks he's the real deal. If he wasn't so hyped up by everyone he would continue really working on his game and improving, but all he seems to have done is stagnate since his first few caps. The main thing he seems to have worked on is how loudly he screams everytime a penalty is won. This is in stark contrast to Lawes, who seemed to react to Kruis and Itoje taking the second row over really well, and improving the weaker areas of his game and is now playing his best ever rugby. I think Itoje sitting out a few internationals with Kruis, Launch and Lawes taking control might be the best thing long term.
You have been paying to much attention to what rival fans have been saying.
The whole Saracens screaming with joy at everything is embarrassing, and I can imagine infuriating to be on the opposing team..
They are tilting you and you aren't even playing, it's mind games. Nothing "embarrassing" about it. Certainly nothing to do with maro.
twitchy wrote:
You have been paying to much attention to what rival fans have been saying.
The whole Saracens screaming with joy at everything is embarrassing, and I can imagine infuriating to be on the opposing team..
They are tilting you and you aren't even playing, it's mind games. Nothing "embarrassing" about it. Certainly nothing to do with maro.
Just cause something's within the laws and effective, doesn't make it a) right and b) dignified. I regard it in the same disdain as I do the giving of sarcastic pats to opposition after a penalty and the Italian "no-ruck" tactic - technically within bounds, but classless. I wish we wouldn't do it.
Actually, having said that, it is technically against the laws due to the wonderful catch-all of "Ungentlemanly conduct" which is shorthand for, "Anything that pisses the ref off which doesn't have a bespoke law." I wish more refs would call them on it.
I've watched loads of Sarries this season and every England game and I've not seen an Itoje that fits the description from some of these posts. A couple of areas of his game that need work (ruck discipline at times and a few too many high shots), but still consistently excellent for club and country imo.
Timbo wrote:I've watched loads of Sarries this season and every England game and I've not seen an Itoje that fits the description from some of these posts. A couple of areas of his game that need work (ruck discipline at times and a few too many high shots), but still consistently excellent for club and country imo.
Those are basically my criticisms of his second season - too many penalties at the ruck (and a lot which are utterly needless) and his tackling has looked very average. He's gone for big hits and has either slid off or slid up, neither of which is great.
However, the fact that I'm suggesting dropping him for that is testament to our ridiculous options at lock, rather than saying he's become a bad player.
I think that we are nitpicking over a player in their second (?) year of senior rugby says it all. Think how good the Vunipolas are now compared to they were at Itoje's age. They had big flaws in their game that they've ironed out. Farrell's left to right passing was barely Prem standard at this stage. If Itoje can improve as much as they did he will undoubtedly be world class. But, yeh, he could do with toning down the cheering at pen time. To me, it's gone from congratulating and motivating his time to taunting/goading the oppo.
If a player is playing to the exact role of one position but the team sheet and coach says he's playing another, which one do you form your assessment on?
That's the crux of Itoje this 6N. Everything he did screamed lock to the point where it feels really weird to judge him as a flanker.
I do see Puja's point and it could be that's a sign that he's really not a flanker. But it could be Jones was making vague noises to the press and we're in no position to judge. Could be Jones is only making noises because he looked at Itoje and realised playing him at flanker was an awful idea. Who knows?
Since I don't, I don't like using those games for making a judgement. That's all. Fascinating I know.
Also he had a down second season but he was still an effective international. But we pretty much all knew that.
Also also I'd like to see refs ping gloating post-penalty a lot more often.
