Puja wrote:
Hyperbole surely - I only saw 3-4 at most and two of those were from asking him to pass from a 2 ball in the line out to a very wide fly-half. Granted, an international scrum-half should be able to make that pass, but since the one we've got can't, should we still be running that move?
Puja
...it has occurred to me that Ford/Faz do stand too far away from him, given the quality of his passing. I wonder how much time the coaches spend on this, or indeed if they know how to work out optimum width and depth.
But even 3 or 4 times is 3 or 4 too many.
Makes you think, that, when they are used to playing with Cook and Wigglesworth respectively!
Whilst Cook is promising Ford is really struggling at Bath with both his Scrum Halves TBH.
Banquo wrote:
...it has occurred to me that Ford/Faz do stand too far away from him, given the quality of his passing. I wonder how much time the coaches spend on this, or indeed if they know how to work out optimum width and depth.
But even 3 or 4 times is 3 or 4 too many.
Makes you think, that, when they are used to playing with Cook and Wigglesworth respectively!
Whilst Cook is promising Ford is really struggling at Bath with both his Scrum Halves TBH.
He has been spoilt by Stringer.
Couple of things, whilst Ford hasn't been at his best, I really think talk of his lack of form is somewhat overdone; at Bath, he has been playing in a struggling team, and he personally wasn't helped playing outside Matawalu- and he really only had one very poor half when he got yanked. I actually think his play for England has been more than acceptable- bad charge down I agree, he just shouldn't have kicked- and he should definitely be taking the line kicks from penalties; someone said who had kicked to touch for the lineout which the charge down came from, and why weren't we further up the pitch anyway- it as Faz. Incidentally, Biggar has to be given some credit- the charge down was what he was trying to do, and he showed good speed to execute it, given the opportunity.
Mikey Brown wrote:And the dozen or more good pieces if possession he wasted?
Hyperbole surely - I only saw 3-4 at most and two of those were from asking him to pass from a 2 ball in the line out to a very wide fly-half. Granted, an international scrum-half should be able to make that pass, but since the one we've got can't, should we still be running that move?
Puja
I reckon there were 10 or so, I'd have to watch it back. I've almost got a horrible urge to make a "highlights" reel of Ben Youngs destroying our attack throughout the 6 nations. I've genuinely lost count. It feels like everyone here suggesting he's been anything above a 3 or 4 must just be taking the piss. I'd genuinely consider W'worth if it were a straight choice right now.
Banquo wrote:
...it has occurred to me that Ford/Faz do stand too far away from him, given the quality of his passing. I wonder how much time the coaches spend on this, or indeed if they know how to work out optimum width and depth.
But even 3 or 4 times is 3 or 4 too many.
I can't believe they don't know how to work out width and depth off the 9, I could believe they think such work beneath them. As an advocate that you should never stop coaching the basics, and that it's the work of good coaches to keep that repetitive work interesting, then I disagree if they're ignoring such work, and the repeat examples telling them they should surely be going back to basics.
It could be they're doing the work, but to make it gel at the level and pace they're playing it is just very hard, and it'll take some time for Youngs and Ford yet to strike up a more positive relationship. So they're either going to need to buy into developing this pairing, or just seeing if they can find a more natural pairing asap.
Banquo wrote:
...it has occurred to me that Ford/Faz do stand too far away from him, given the quality of his passing. I wonder how much time the coaches spend on this, or indeed if they know how to work out optimum width and depth.
But even 3 or 4 times is 3 or 4 too many.
I can't believe they don't know how to work out width and depth off the 9, I could believe they think such work beneath them. As an advocate that you should never stop coaching the basics, and that it's the work of good coaches to keep that repetitive work interesting, then I disagree if they're ignoring such work, and the repeat examples telling them they should surely be going back to basics.
It could be they're doing the work, but to make it gel at the level and pace they're playing it is just very hard, and it'll take some time for Youngs and Ford yet to strike up a more positive relationship. So they're either going to need to buy into developing this pairing, or just seeing if they can find a more natural pairing asap.
When it comes off positioning at a lineout (twice!), that's a failure of coaching. Either we need to pick a scrum-half capable of making that pass every time, or we need to stop training set piece plays that require him to make it.
Banquo wrote:
...it has occurred to me that Ford/Faz do stand too far away from him, given the quality of his passing. I wonder how much time the coaches spend on this, or indeed if they know how to work out optimum width and depth.
But even 3 or 4 times is 3 or 4 too many.
I can't believe they don't know how to work out width and depth off the 9, I could believe they think such work beneath them. As an advocate that you should never stop coaching the basics, and that it's the work of good coaches to keep that repetitive work interesting, then I disagree if they're ignoring such work, and the repeat examples telling them they should surely be going back to basics.
It could be they're doing the work, but to make it gel at the level and pace they're playing it is just very hard, and it'll take some time for Youngs and Ford yet to strike up a more positive relationship. So they're either going to need to buy into developing this pairing, or just seeing if they can find a more natural pairing asap.
When it comes off positioning at a lineout (twice!), that's a failure of coaching. Either we need to pick a scrum-half capable of making that pass every time, or we need to stop training set piece plays that require him to make it.
Puja
It could be that Ford was stood the correct distance away but it was just a rank bad pass. Youngs' passing can be very hit and miss.
Digby wrote:
I can't believe they don't know how to work out width and depth off the 9, I could believe they think such work beneath them. As an advocate that you should never stop coaching the basics, and that it's the work of good coaches to keep that repetitive work interesting, then I disagree if they're ignoring such work, and the repeat examples telling them they should surely be going back to basics.
It could be they're doing the work, but to make it gel at the level and pace they're playing it is just very hard, and it'll take some time for Youngs and Ford yet to strike up a more positive relationship. So they're either going to need to buy into developing this pairing, or just seeing if they can find a more natural pairing asap.
When it comes off positioning at a lineout (twice!), that's a failure of coaching. Either we need to pick a scrum-half capable of making that pass every time, or we need to stop training set piece plays that require him to make it.
Puja
It could be that Ford was stood the correct distance away but it was just a rank bad pass. Youngs' passing can be very hit and miss.
Puja wrote:
When it comes off positioning at a lineout (twice!), that's a failure of coaching. Either we need to pick a scrum-half capable of making that pass every time, or we need to stop training set piece plays that require him to make it.
Puja
It could be that Ford was stood the correct distance away but it was just a rank bad pass. Youngs' passing can be very hit and miss.
The two occasions I'm thinking of (the botched strike move that led to Watson's try after recycling and the charge down) it was a fairly difficult pass being asked of him. Seems like asking a hooker with the yips to throw over the 15m line to me.
Puja wrote:
When it comes off positioning at a lineout (twice!), that's a failure of coaching. Either we need to pick a scrum-half capable of making that pass every time, or we need to stop training set piece plays that require him to make it.
Puja
It could be that Ford was stood the correct distance away but it was just a rank bad pass. Youngs' passing can be very hit and miss.
...yes and/or Ford forgot who he was playing with
You'd have thought that the stretched hamstrings and the exposed rib cage would make it difficult to forget.
Banquo wrote:someone said who had kicked to touch for the lineout which the charge down came from, and why weren't we further up the pitch anyway- it as Faz.
I thought the kick to touch was a little lacking, though we may have run that exit play from our half even if another 5-10m up the pitch
Banquo wrote:someone said who had kicked to touch for the lineout which the charge down came from, and why weren't we further up the pitch anyway- it as Faz.
I thought the kick to touch was a little lacking, though we may have run that exit play from our half even if another 5-10m up the pitch
watching it back, it was a daft play, ball off the top at 2, undercooked pass....more or less invited a charge down from (the very switched on) Biggar.
Really don't know why Ford isn't doing all the line kicking from penalties though. Faz is both conservative and doesn't have his length of kick.
Banquo wrote:someone said who had kicked to touch for the lineout which the charge down came from, and why weren't we further up the pitch anyway- it as Faz.
I thought the kick to touch was a little lacking, though we may have run that exit play from our half even if another 5-10m up the pitch
watching it back, it was a daft play, ball off the top at 2, undercooked pass....more or less invited a charge down from (the very switched on) Biggar.
Really don't know why Ford isn't doing all the line kicking from penalties though. Faz is both conservative and doesn't have his length of kick.
Also if they're taking the ball at the front why isn't Brown a kicking option on left with Watson taking Brown's role in the wider openside? Just a poor play across the board, whether a side fatiguing, mentally switched off with a comfortable lead, or just ineptness.
Digby wrote:
I thought the kick to touch was a little lacking, though we may have run that exit play from our half even if another 5-10m up the pitch
watching it back, it was a daft play, ball off the top at 2, undercooked pass....more or less invited a charge down from (the very switched on) Biggar.
Really don't know why Ford isn't doing all the line kicking from penalties though. Faz is both conservative and doesn't have his length of kick.
Also if they're taking the ball at the front why isn't Brown a kicking option on left with Watson taking Brown's role in the wider openside? Just a poor play across the board, whether a side fatiguing, mentally switched off with a comfortable lead, or just ineptness.
Not following you there- where are you envisaging Brown standing and using his left boot from a lineout on the left?
Banquo wrote:
watching it back, it was a daft play, ball off the top at 2, undercooked pass....more or less invited a charge down from (the very switched on) Biggar.
Really don't know why Ford isn't doing all the line kicking from penalties though. Faz is both conservative and doesn't have his length of kick.
Also if they're taking the ball at the front why isn't Brown a kicking option on left with Watson taking Brown's role in the wider openside? Just a poor play across the board, whether a side fatiguing, mentally switched off with a comfortable lead, or just ineptness.
Not following you there- where are you envisaging Brown standing and using his left boot from a lineout on the left?
Maybe he was picturing Brown on the right on the end of that other fantastic move we did, you know, where we put a prop at first receiver and fling it down the line behind our own posts before looking for a clearance?
Banquo wrote:
watching it back, it was a daft play, ball off the top at 2, undercooked pass....more or less invited a charge down from (the very switched on) Biggar.
Really don't know why Ford isn't doing all the line kicking from penalties though. Faz is both conservative and doesn't have his length of kick.
Also if they're taking the ball at the front why isn't Brown a kicking option on left with Watson taking Brown's role in the wider openside? Just a poor play across the board, whether a side fatiguing, mentally switched off with a comfortable lead, or just ineptness.
Not following you there- where are you envisaging Brown standing and using his left boot from a lineout on the left?
A pass from the left, kicking towards the left touch line, off a left foot might have reduced the time taken enough to have missed Biggar's block?
Digby wrote:
Also if they're taking the ball at the front why isn't Brown a kicking option on left with Watson taking Brown's role in the wider openside? Just a poor play across the board, whether a side fatiguing, mentally switched off with a comfortable lead, or just ineptness.
Not following you there- where are you envisaging Brown standing and using his left boot from a lineout on the left?
A pass from the left, kicking towards the left touch line, off a left foot might have reduced the time taken enough to have missed Biggar's block?
....so where would Brown be standing...at 10? and then putting a kick into the left hand side box? The left side would be a marginal protection against the block ish, but it'd be a really awkward kick imo.
Banquo wrote:
Not following you there- where are you envisaging Brown standing and using his left boot from a lineout on the left?
A pass from the left, kicking towards the left touch line, off a left foot might have reduced the time taken enough to have missed Biggar's block?
....so where would Brown be standing...at 10? and then putting a kick into the left hand side box? The left side would be a marginal protection against the block ish, but it'd be a really awkward kick imo.
Yep, at 10 I presume. I'm not advocating it, just trying to second guess Diggers' logic. As much of a minefield as that is. Moody always talks about the crucial extra time it takes for a player to kick when collecting a pass from the opposite side to his kicking foot.
Mellsblue wrote:
A pass from the left, kicking towards the left touch line, off a left foot might have reduced the time taken enough to have missed Biggar's block?
....so where would Brown be standing...at 10? and then putting a kick into the left hand side box? The left side would be a marginal protection against the block ish, but it'd be a really awkward kick imo.
Yep, at 10 I presume. I'm not advocating it, just trying to second guess Diggers' logic. As much of a minefield as that is. Moody always talks about the crucial extra time it takes for a player to kick when collecting a pass from the opposite side to his kicking foot.
I get that, sort of, but it all sounds a bit awkward with angles, depending on where he is trying to kick to. If he's trying to kick to kick into the left hand box or down the middle of the park he has to 'oppose' the momentum of the pass, and I'd say stand deeper and kick almost stationary....and kicking to the right would be very awkward. Be a much better option from the right imo. Mind wilko managed . I seem to remember Cipriani used to get charged down on the left hand side a lot though.
If the plan was to kick from 10 in that position, why not just get Youngs to box-kick it straight from the line-out? Unless the plan was to compete, rather than go "down-town", in which case Youngs kicking from near the touchline for midfield chasers is asking a bit much.
Banquo wrote:
Not following you there- where are you envisaging Brown standing and using his left boot from a lineout on the left?
I'd have swapped him with Watson. He's not an option for ball off the top where they can come through, but he might be on a next phase, or if they'd driven a maul instead
Pie Man wrote:If the plan was to kick from 10 in that position, why not just get Youngs to box-kick it straight from the line-out? Unless the plan was to compete, rather than go "down-town", in which case Youngs kicking from near the touchline for midfield chasers is asking a bit much.
the bit that makes no sense is taking it from the top at 2 then a long pass to 10 to kick it, when you analyse it!
Last edited by Banquo on Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Banquo wrote:
Not following you there- where are you envisaging Brown standing and using his left boot from a lineout on the left?
I'd have swapped him with Watson. He's not an option for ball off the top where they can come through, but he might be on a next phase, or if they'd driven a maul instead
ah, a bit clearer, but even then, what kick are you expecting him to do?
Banquo wrote:
Not following you there- where are you envisaging Brown standing and using his left boot from a lineout on the left?
I'd have swapped him with Watson. He's not an option for ball off the top where they can come through, but he might be on a next phase, or if they'd driven a maul instead
ah, a bit clearer, but even then, what kick are you expecting him to do?
Depends what happens next. I don't think he should be taking that kick in lieu of Ford given what happened, I do think there's merit in him being on the left depending on what happens next/instead
Digby wrote:
I'd have swapped him with Watson. He's not an option for ball off the top where they can come through, but he might be on a next phase, or if they'd driven a maul instead
ah, a bit clearer, but even then, what kick are you expecting him to do?
Depends what happens next. I don't think he should be taking that kick in lieu of Ford given what happened, I do think there's merit in him being on the left depending on what happens next/instead
...perhaps I'm being dense, but I'm still not seeing what use you'd put him to on the left wing. unless its hoisting a kick into midfield from the left? I'd rather Watson there to chase the likely box kick from the 9, unless you want Brown to hoist a box kick and chase it himself, but it'd more likely to go more infield than you'd like. I can see how he could be usefully deployed as an alternative kicker in a split field when in our own half, and indeed we have done that.
iLovett wrote:I was gobsmacked at the consistently good decisions we kept making as a team, especially int he first half.
Youngs was a real mixed bag - his sniping / delayed passes definitely kept the beastly Welsh defence honest & confused. He was really good at some things, but a few split second decisions & poor passes cost us a massive points tally in the first half. Overall a 7 for me
No huge Ford fan but thought he played well on the whole, he was always in trouble for 'that' kick which was the start of the comeback (too close on several before then) I think he suffered from too many big collisions, but defended bloody well. ,......Hartley & Robshaw take a bow gents - after all the stick they get to play like they have all tournament is testament to the fellas & their desire to play for England,...
