Gatland - an open apology

[Digby]

Henson has also been far more irrelevant to rugby than should have been the case. Maybe not the brightest spark, but he was blessed with a hell of a skill set. How much Gats owes us an apology for Henson being so irrelevant, how much Henson and how much injuries I don't know.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

He didn't fluke it, the Lions players stood up. I think some of the worst elements of the game plan, like constant box kicks and a baffling use of the bench, Gatland is responsible for. Maybe Gatland had the changing room and ranked them up properly, but I still don't rate him, as a coach. How many games has he overseen that he should have won but hasn't? It's easier being feisty as the under dog.

It's tempting to lay all the success at the players door and all the failures at the door of the coach but it doesn't seem to me to be reasonable. Undoubtedly my previous opinion of him as useless had a factual basis, but you can't just ignore positive results as well. when the ABs and the NZ franchises have been smashing all comers to hold the ABs tryless at home in beating them and then backing that up with a draw which hadn't been achieved in 20 years is new information which has to be chucked into the mix.

[Digby]

He didn't fluke it, the Lions players stood up. I think some of the worst elements of the game plan, like constant box kicks and a baffling use of the bench, Gatland is responsible for. Maybe Gatland had the changing room and ranked them up properly, but I still don't rate him, as a coach. How many games has he overseen that he should have won but hasn't? It's easier being feisty as the under dog.

It's tempting to lay all the success at the players door and all the failures at the door of the coach but it doesn't seem to me to be reasonable. Undoubtedly my previous opinion of him as useless had a factual basis, but you can't just ignore positive results as well. when the ABs and the NZ franchises have been smashing all comers to hold the ABs tryless at home in beating them and then backing that up with a draw which hadn't been achieved in 20 years is new information which has to be chucked into the mix.

So were the ball not as unsafe in Savea's hands as his other half and BB could kick goals would that really change anything Gats had done?

[Which Tyler]

TBF I think most of the positives for the lions on this tour came from the retirements of Carter, McCaw, Smith, Nonu etc.

NZ were outright worse than many people expected; TBH that NZ team was possibly the worst NZ team I've watched... Whilst still being better than anyone else in the world at the moment.

Performance wise the lions were about where I expected them to be, maybe a little better in defence (mind, I was never as anti-Gatland as some; I think and thought that he's good at what he does, and that what he does carries no surprises, and isn't good enough at the top level). I just expected NZ to be about 10-20 points better.


ETA, I should also point out that Gatland exceeded my expectations of unifying the squad - which itself shone through in defence.

[Donny osmond]

To be fair to Gats, and Eug, he clearly has his strengths as a coach... his Welsh teams play out of their skins for each other and him, and his Lions squads have done the same so he obviously able to get a united and motivated changing room together. And knows how to hire a decent defense coach. I just think international coaches should have more in the bag than that, plus as said before the lions dont exist in a bubble and ignoring the short comings of the opposition seems daft.

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[Numbers]

To be fair to Gats, and Eug, he clearly has his strengths as a coach... his Welsh teams play out of their skins for each other and him, and his Lions squads have done the same so he obviously able to get a united and motivated changing room together. And knows how to hire a decent defense coach. I just think international coaches should have more in the bag than that, plus as said before the lions dont exist in a bubble and ignoring the short comings of the opposition seems daft.

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What I am confused by is the fact that people are saying the ABs were poor, the ABs always find it hard if you can keep them under pressure which was the gameplan, this is the same Gatball that Wales have been playing for years.

So in short you may not like the tactics or style but it's effective if properly executed and he is paid to get results.

[Donny osmond]

To be fair to Gats, and Eug, he clearly has his strengths as a coach... his Welsh teams play out of their skins for each other and him, and his Lions squads have done the same so he obviously able to get a united and motivated changing room together. And knows how to hire a decent defense coach. I just think international coaches should have more in the bag than that, plus as said before the lions dont exist in a bubble and ignoring the short comings of the opposition seems daft.

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What I am confused by is the fact that people are saying the ABs were poor, the ABs always find it hard if you can keep them under pressure which was the gameplan, this is the same Gatball that Wales have been playing for years.

So in short you may not like the tactics or style but it's effective if properly executed and he is paid to get results.

Fair point, I guess any team would struggle under constant pressure and the lions were able to bring that pressure, but again thats only considering what the lions were able to do, what about considering what the ABs were, or more pertinently weren't able to bring? Where was the constant pressure that they usually put on the oppo? Where were the support runners that are usually such a feature of AB rugby? Where were the sublime skills - there in glimpses from SBW but outside of him...? Where was the rugby nous to change the point of attack and keep the defence guessing? The last few years the ABs have been the last word in simple, skillful, direct rugby but in the series against the lions that was all missing.

So yeah, the lions played as a team, played for each other and the coach, and brought the pressure that rattled the ABs, and fair play to Gats for that. But it ain't the only page in the book.



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[Son of Mathonwy]

Gatland certainly did better than expected, and did well by anyone's standards, given the task. He deserves congratulations. This NZ team was not quite up to the team of a couple of years ago, but still the best in the world.

IMO he was a little fortunate to get the draw - this was at the limit of his ability. If you ran the events again he'd be lucky to get that result, and I would still favour Jones or Schmidt building a Lions team out of an England or Ireland core, respectively.

Time is not on the side of the Lions coach: Gatland is a decent choice for a Lions coach because he has a simple plan which brings results quickly (as per Wales 2008).

But NZ would be mental to hire him as a head coach. After 12 months he has nothing left to give to a team, just the same old, same old. It was pretty negative rugby after all, which only worked because of the quality of the Lions squad. Much as it did 4 years ago IMO.

It's not enough for Wales, but I fear a Gatland buoyed up with this result will see us going full steam ahead to absolutely nowhere.

[cashead]

From the perspective of an AB supporter, I think there were two major bits of luck that helped Gatland greatly, one of which came from uncharacteristically poor judgement from Hansen.

1. The injuries to Ben Smith and Ryan Crotty. The All Blacks seriously missed these two guys out there, especially Ben Smith's leadership in the backline.
2. Hansen's failure to call up the appropriate replacements. I honestly believe Hansen should have called up Cory Jane and Charlie Ngatai to replace them, especially since Jane has historically been absolutely vital for the Hurricanes backline defence.

1 was unfortunate, but 2 was poor from Hansen.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

From the perspective of an AB supporter, I think there were two major bits of luck that helped Gatland greatly, one of which came from uncharacteristically poor judgement from Hansen.

1. The injuries to Ben Smith and Ryan Crotty. The All Blacks seriously missed these two guys out there, especially Ben Smith's leadership in the backline.
2. Hansen's failure to call up the appropriate replacements. I honestly believe Hansen should have called up Cory Jane and Charlie Ngatai to replace them, especially since Jane has historically been absolutely vital for the Hurricanes backline defence.

1 was unfortunate, but 2 was poor from Hansen.

Injuries are an inevitability in modern rugby. It's not as though the ABs had a particularly heavy toll. As for Corey Jane being the answer to the ABs problems, it's a point of view that I suspect is not widely shared and for good reason.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I agree with the comments that the ABs were poor. I have some difficulty with the hyperbolic "worst ABs team eva" and som difficulty that they just randomly became poor 3 games in a row and it happened to be against the Lions. If they continue to be poor in the 4N then fine I'll call it luck that he caught them when poor. Otherwise the working assumption has to be that the ABs suddenly becoming poor was something to do with the opposition.

[cashead]

From the perspective of an AB supporter, I think there were two major bits of luck that helped Gatland greatly, one of which came from uncharacteristically poor judgement from Hansen.

1. The injuries to Ben Smith and Ryan Crotty. The All Blacks seriously missed these two guys out there, especially Ben Smith's leadership in the backline.
2. Hansen's failure to call up the appropriate replacements. I honestly believe Hansen should have called up Cory Jane and Charlie Ngatai to replace them, especially since Jane has historically been absolutely vital for the Hurricanes backline defence.

1 was unfortunate, but 2 was poor from Hansen.

Injuries are an inevitability in modern rugby. It's not as though the ABs had a particularly heavy toll. As for Corey Jane being the answer to the ABs problems, it's a point of view that I suspect is not widely shared and for good reason.

First, it's not how many injuries, but rather, whom. Secondly, as soon as Ben Smith was out, Jane, or Richard Buckman for that matter, would have been the kind of player that Hansen should've been looking at - they're reliable, good defenders, good defensive organisers and are decent attackers.

Jane is a shockingly underrated defensive player, because most people focus on his ability under the high ball and his attacking play. While his role for the Hurricanes has been diminished somewhat this year, he was absolutely vital in getting the Hurricanes to the final in 2015 and in 2016, and his absence in the 2015 final did have some bearing on the final outcome of that game.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

From the perspective of an AB supporter, I think there were two major bits of luck that helped Gatland greatly, one of which came from uncharacteristically poor judgement from Hansen.

1. The injuries to Ben Smith and Ryan Crotty. The All Blacks seriously missed these two guys out there, especially Ben Smith's leadership in the backline.
2. Hansen's failure to call up the appropriate replacements. I honestly believe Hansen should have called up Cory Jane and Charlie Ngatai to replace them, especially since Jane has historically been absolutely vital for the Hurricanes backline defence.

1 was unfortunate, but 2 was poor from Hansen.

Injuries are an inevitability in modern rugby. It's not as though the ABs had a particularly heavy toll. As for Corey Jane being the answer to the ABs problems, it's a point of view that I suspect is not widely shared and for good reason.

First, it's not how many injuries, but rather, whom. Secondly, as soon as Ben Smith was out, Jane, or Richard Buckman for that matter, would have been the kind of player that Hansen should've been looking at - they're reliable, good defenders, good defensive organisers and are decent attackers.

Jane is a shockingly underrated defensive player, because most people focus on his ability under the high ball and his attacking play. While his role for the Hurricanes has been diminished somewhat this year, he was absolutely vital in getting the Hurricanes to the final in 2015 and in 2016, and his absence in the 2015 final did have some bearing on the final outcome of that game.

I'm having some difficulty with accepting that Gatland was lucky that Hansen wasn't using 2015 form as his yardstick, rather than observing that Jordie Barrett had passed him at the Hurricanes. If I were going to pick a selection mistake I'd have gone with persisting with Aaron Cruden.

[Digby]

I agree with the comments that the ABs were poor. I have some difficulty with the hyperbolic "worst ABs team eva" and som difficulty that they just randomly became poor 3 games in a row and it happened to be against the Lions. If they continue to be poor in the 4N then fine I'll call it luck that he caught them when poor. Otherwise the working assumption has to be that the ABs suddenly becoming poor was something to do with the opposition.

Two games in a row, they ripped the Lions apart somewhat in the 1st test

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I agree with the comments that the ABs were poor. I have some difficulty with the hyperbolic "worst ABs team eva" and som difficulty that they just randomly became poor 3 games in a row and it happened to be against the Lions. If they continue to be poor in the 4N then fine I'll call it luck that he caught them when poor. Otherwise the working assumption has to be that the ABs suddenly becoming poor was something to do with the opposition.

Two games in a row, they ripped the Lions apart somewhat in the 1st test

They may have done but I thought they were rather poor by their own usual standards.

[morepork]

I agree with the comments that the ABs were poor. I have some difficulty with the hyperbolic "worst ABs team eva" and som difficulty that they just randomly became poor 3 games in a row and it happened to be against the Lions. If they continue to be poor in the 4N then fine I'll call it luck that he caught them when poor. Otherwise the working assumption has to be that the ABs suddenly becoming poor was something to do with the opposition.

Two games in a row, they ripped the Lions apart somewhat in the 1st test

They may have done but I thought they were rather poor by their own usual standards.

What you saw in the first test was Gatland completely shit down.

[Sandydragon]

Gatland certainly did better than expected, and did well by anyone's standards, given the task. He deserves congratulations. This NZ team was not quite up to the team of a couple of years ago, but still the best in the world.

IMO he was a little fortunate to get the draw - this was at the limit of his ability. If you ran the events again he'd be lucky to get that result, and I would still favour Jones or Schmidt building a Lions team out of an England or Ireland core, respectively.

Time is not on the side of the Lions coach: Gatland is a decent choice for a Lions coach because he has a simple plan which brings results quickly (as per Wales 2008).

But NZ would be mental to hire him as a head coach. After 12 months he has nothing left to give to a team, just the same old, same old. It was pretty negative rugby after all, which only worked because of the quality of the Lions squad. Much as it did 4 years ago IMO.

It's not enough for Wales, but I fear a Gatland buoyed up with this result will see us going full steam ahead to absolutely nowhere.

The AIs this year will be a key indicator on how the Welsh team will develop in the next 2 years. Unless Gatland leaves on his own terms, we are stuck with the current set up.

WIth regards to the ABs performance, I think you have to acknowledge the Lion's defensive efforts in keeping the ABs largely under wraps.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Gatland certainly did better than expected, and did well by anyone's standards, given the task. He deserves congratulations. This NZ team was not quite up to the team of a couple of years ago, but still the best in the world.

IMO he was a little fortunate to get the draw - this was at the limit of his ability. If you ran the events again he'd be lucky to get that result, and I would still favour Jones or Schmidt building a Lions team out of an England or Ireland core, respectively.

Time is not on the side of the Lions coach: Gatland is a decent choice for a Lions coach because he has a simple plan which brings results quickly (as per Wales 2008).

But NZ would be mental to hire him as a head coach. After 12 months he has nothing left to give to a team, just the same old, same old. It was pretty negative rugby after all, which only worked because of the quality of the Lions squad. Much as it did 4 years ago IMO.

It's not enough for Wales, but I fear a Gatland buoyed up with this result will see us going full steam ahead to absolutely nowhere.

The AIs this year will be a key indicator on how the Welsh team will develop in the next 2 years. Unless Gatland leaves on his own terms, we are stuck with the current set up.

WIth regards to the ABs performance, I think you have to acknowledge the Lion's defensive efforts in keeping the ABs largely under wraps.

Agreed, the Lions' defence was fantastic. When you can choose your 23 from the whole of the British Isles, you can get this kind of quality - to execute Gatland's plan almost perfectly. Which is enough to stifle even NZ - although at best this only delivers a narrow victory.

With only Wales to select from, the quality across the 15 (and certainly the 23) isn't quite there. And that's why we are where we are. I don't see much realistic hope of development... why would Gatland's approach begin to give us improvements in 2017, and not in the last 5 years (or more)? With Gatland, our only hope for improvement will come from the players (well, those who Gatland thinks are good, anyway).