Team v France

[Mellsblue]

I'll be that one then!

IMHO he's the best tight 5 hooker we have by a fair whack (right now), and it's the tight 5 that needed most improvement from the WC / Ireland loss last year.

J George is obviously very promising, but still too green for nasty 6nations front rows at full tilt. His time will come... Hartley if fit enough MUST start vs an always beastly french front row away from home. Admittedly Youngs is the best in the loose, (centre? ) but that's irrelevant to the nuts & bolts of being a world class hooker which Hartley clearly is, and has been for some time.

Seeing young / mobile hookers sprinting about in the loose is definitely fun, but they should really be keeping the ruck secure & the maul going forwards (or down on oppo ball!)

People suggesting 'lineout aside'; lol... the lineout is one of the most important facets in the game, look what happened to Wales when they did / didn't get lineout ball on Saturday.

Hartley is world class.....come on.

I reckon George will have faced nastier frontrows and tight fives in Europe than anything he's faced in this 6N.

Good thing about George is his set piece is as good as Hartley's and he's far better in the loose. Imagine having a hooker who's good in both facets.

Yes on George, but in time, he's still green for France away, not that it matters as he's crocked

On Hartley; ask Gatland, Schmit Jones, Woodward, McGeeghan, Johnson, in fact anyone who's been a top class coach.. he's right up there with the best in the world. Doesn't do a ton in the loose so you won't see it on TV but he gets about I tells ya! Nobody recalls him ousting Steve Thompson who everyone admitted was class, with his WC medal & all. Really like the look of the French 2 though, he's got game! We need to be wary of this French team, they have a good performance in them if things go their way, like a lineout or 2 or a green front row getting minced

I still think George will have faced better front fives for Sarries in Europe, a good portion of which will have been away at French teams. Stades Mayol and Marcel Michelin are probably as, if not more, intimidating than the Stade de France.

Some of those coaches are top class, some not so much and some are Scott Johnson. Can't say I've heard Schmidt, Woodward or Geech comment on him, we know Gatland and Jones rate him.

Hartley made his Eng debut in 2008 - he didn't replace a world class Steve Thompson.

[Oakboy]

it's not just the one change though- and Hartley had been almost ever-present pre RWC.

I think you and most of the rest of us would have predicted that Hartley was finished Street an international. I doubt Burton would have picked him again.

[Oakboy]

it's not just the one change though- and Hartley had been almost ever-present pre RWC.

I think you and most of the rest of us would have predicted that Hartley was finished as an international. I doubt Burt would have picked him again.

[Banquo]

it's not just the one change though- and Hartley had been almost ever-present pre RWC.

I think you and most of the rest of us would have predicted that Hartley was finished as an international. I doubt Burton would have picked him again.

I'm not sure that's the case tbh with Burt, but even then I don't know what point you are making.

You had also said that Youngs was Burt's first choice, and he patently wasn't.

[Oakboy]

it's not just the one change though- and Hartley had been almost ever-present pre RWC.

I think you and most of the rest of us would have predicted that Hartley was finished as an international. I doubt Burton would have picked him again.

I'm not sure that's the case tbh with Burt, but even then I don't know what point you are making.

Only praising EJ for picking Hartley when hardly anyone approved.

[Banquo]

I think you and most of the rest of us would have predicted that Hartley was finished as an international. I doubt Burton would have picked him again.

I'm not sure that's the case tbh with Burt, but even then I don't know what point you are making.

Only praising EJ for picking Hartley when hardly anyone approved.

.....ok, but he wasn't the only change either....

[Mellsblue]

I'll be that one then!

IMHO he's the best tight 5 hooker we have by a fair whack (right now), and it's the tight 5 that needed most improvement from the WC / Ireland loss last year.

J George is obviously very promising, but still too green for nasty 6nations front rows at full tilt. His time will come... Hartley if fit enough MUST start vs an always beastly french front row away from home. Admittedly Youngs is the best in the loose, (centre? ) but that's irrelevant to the nuts & bolts of being a world class hooker which Hartley clearly is, and has been for some time.

Seeing young / mobile hookers sprinting about in the loose is definitely fun, but they should really be keeping the ruck secure & the maul going forwards (or down on oppo ball!)

People suggesting 'lineout aside'; lol... the lineout is one of the most important facets in the game, look what happened to Wales when they did / didn't get lineout ball on Saturday.

Hartley is world class.....come on.

I reckon George will have faced nastier frontrows and tight fives in Europe than anything he's faced in this 6N.

Good thing about George is his set piece is as good as Hartley's and he's far better in the loose. Imagine having a hooker who's good in both facets.

....devil's advocate- not sure his darts are as good as Dylan's tbh.

Perhaps not. For me, it's marginal.

[Spiffy]

Hartley is there because Jones wanted to bring an edge to the team that was missing under Lancaster. This can also be seen by Farrell and Brown as vc's.

I can understand the logic but if you look at it purely from a playing perspective George, for me, would've been the best choice. For all of this talk of Hartley playing well I'd say he was worst performer in the pack. I dread to think of how many tackles he's missed.

As for the assertion that the one major change from the Lancaster era is Hartley. I'd suggest the major change is a competent coaching set-up.

We'll never know the answer but I wonder how much better the pack would've gone with George as first choice hooker.

But Hartley has not brought any noticible edge to the team. If anything, Tom Youngs has more edge to his game with aggressive carrying and tackling. (I am not saying that the team as a total entity lacks edge, just that any edge there is, is not down to Hartley).

[Peat]

Farrell's a bigger personnel change than Hartley imo, and one sub appearance and 3 starts makes Itoje a pretty major personnel change too. That's a completely pedantic point imo; I don't think we've won the 6N because of personnel changes, I think we've won it because the coaches have introduced a more coherent game plan and the rest of the 6N showed no interest in winning it. And I think the performance levels have only upticked by a couple of percentiles, largely because it's still roughly the same team, and it's still full of non-World Class players who either need to raise their game or be replaced. Such as Hartley.

And are people still blaming the WC tight five on personnel rather than conditioning? Or am I reading too fast and missing things? Wait, if we're measuring solely from the World Cup, then the continuous presence of Kruis in the second row is surely a major change? I mean, we must be if the hooker who started the majority of Lancaster's games is regarded as a personnel change.

Anyway, Hartley's rucking is ok, doesn't really hit enough to have a major impact in attack, so that's not a great reason to pick him, mauling's never looked better or worse for his presence, mobile ball-carrying front rows are a gift from god and not a luxury (providing they can do the basics as well) and the idea that Hartley's world class... heh. As Banquo says, its not like the scrum's fixed either.

And yes, the lineout is pretty important, it's why I keep mentioning it.


edit: I'd suggest the single biggest and most effective change Jones has made is making Billy Vunipola feel loved.

[Mellsblue]

Hartley is there because Jones wanted to bring an edge to the team that was missing under Lancaster. This can also be seen by Farrell and Brown as vc's.

I can understand the logic but if you look at it purely from a playing perspective George, for me, would've been the best choice. For all of this talk of Hartley playing well I'd say he was worst performer in the pack. I dread to think of how many tackles he's missed.

As for the assertion that the one major change from the Lancaster era is Hartley. I'd suggest the major change is a competent coaching set-up.

We'll never know the answer but I wonder how much better the pack would've gone with George as first choice hooker.

But Hartley has not brought any noticible edge to the team. If anything, Tom Youngs has more edge to his game with aggressive carrying and tackling. (I am not saying that the team as a total entity lacks edge, just that any edge there is, is not down to Hartley).

Attitude - we were to nice under Lancaster. Jones is on record about it.

[Oakboy]

Looking forward to our long-term development, we all know that some players are good enough to participate in the team's progress to a higher level and some are not.

Maybe, those who are not include:

Definites:

Hartley
Robshaw
Haskell
B Youngs
Care

Doubtful:

Farrell
Brown?
Nowell?
Billy V? (I can feel the incoming!)

We can argue one way or the other but in general terms few would argue that there are quite a few and that the number represents a significant proportion of the 23.

[Banquo]

Looking forward to our long-term development, we all know that some players are good enough to participate in the team's progress to a higher level and some are not.

Maybe, those who are not include:

Definites:

Hartley
Robshaw
Haskell
B Youngs
Care

Doubtful:

Farrell
Brown?
Nowell?
Billy V? (I can feel the incoming!)

We can argue one way or the other but in general terms few would argue that there are quite a few and that the number represents a significant proportion of the 23.

Hardly surprising as they are the same ones Burt picked, and were called out before.

I'm not going to bother to rise to the BV malarkey. I'm a bit meh over Marler and Cole for differing reasons.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Looking forward to our long-term development, we all know that some players are good enough to participate in the team's progress to a higher level and some are not.

Maybe, those who are not include:

Definites:

Hartley
Robshaw
Haskell
B Youngs
Care

Doubtful:

Farrell
Brown?
Nowell?
Billy V? (I can feel the incoming!)

We can argue one way or the other but in general terms few would argue that there are quite a few and that the number represents a significant proportion of the 23.

I wouldn't write off a single one of those players. They are all EPS standard and will play a part in overall development. Yo also need to actually Harv something better to replace them with.

[Peat]

There is not a single player in the eps who couldn't be part of a world cup winning side (maybe goode) and not a single position that doesn't have obvious room for improvement (maybe billy).

[Galfon]

definite:
Hartley
Robshaw
Haskell
B Youngs
Care

Quiz question..taking out Robshaw but adding Cole, what do all of these have in common, going into this weekend's GS decider away from home ?

[Puja]

definite:
Hartley
Robshaw
Haskell
B Youngs
Care

Quiz question..taking out Robshaw but adding Cole, what do all of these have in common, going into this weekend's GS decider away from home ?

Given their debut under Martin Johnson? If so, then you can add Robshaw back in; he got one cap under Johnno's leadership.

ETA. Alternately, if you add Manu in (and swap Robshaw for Cole), they're the only players in the squad to have played in RWC 2011.

Puja

[Timbo]

The only blokes with 50+ caps...?

[Mellsblue]

definite:
Hartley
Robshaw
Haskell
B Youngs
Care

Quiz question..taking out Robshaw but adding Cole, what do all of these have in common, going into this weekend's GS decider away from home ?

Your preferred line-up if you were to form a boy band from the EPS?

Or

They've all won a grand slam?

[Tom Moore]

definite:
Hartley
Robshaw
Haskell
B Youngs
Care

Quiz question..taking out Robshaw but adding Cole, what do all of these have in common, going into this weekend's GS decider away from home ?

All played the last two times we got absolutely dry-humped in grand slam deciders?

[Mellsblue]

definite:
Hartley
Robshaw
Haskell
B Youngs
Care

Quiz question..taking out Robshaw but adding Cole, what do all of these have in common, going into this weekend's GS decider away from home ?

All played the last two times we got absolutely dry-humped in grand slam deciders?

The list would be quite a bit longer if that were the case!

[Mush]

List of those giving away most penalties.

[Galfon]

definite:
Hartley
Robshaw
Haskell
B Youngs
Care

Quiz question..taking out Robshaw but adding Cole, what do all of these have in common, going into this weekend... ?

All played the last two times we got absolutely dry-humped in grand slam deciders?

Yes..all these featured in 2011 & 13 clobberings.
1 even bagged a cheap yellae..

[twitchy]

Have the french announced the team yet?

e- Just announced:

Scott Spedding; Wesley Fofana, Gael Fickou, Maxime Mermoz, Virimi Vakatawa; Francois Trinh-Duc, Maxime Machenaud; Loann Goujon, Bernard Le Roux, Damien Chouly; Alexandre Flanquart, Yoann Maestri; Rabah Slimani, Guilhem Guirado (capt), Jefferson Poirot

Replacements: Camille Chat, Uini Atonio, Xavier Chiocci, Paul Jedrasiak, Wenceslas Lauret, Sebastien Bezy, Jules Plisson, Maxime Medard

[WaspInWales]

Care and Mako to start for us.

[WaspInWales]

Mike Brown, Anthony Watson, Jonathan Joseph , Owen Farrell, Jack Nowell, George Ford, Danny Care, Mako Vunipola, Dylan Hartley, Dan Cole, Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Chris Robshaw, James Haskell, Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Kieran Brookes, Joe Launchbury, Jack Clifford, Ben Youngs, Manu Tuilagi, Elliot Daly.