Cue firestorm

[Mellsblue]

This isn't a good look for the sport. Now this is all every one will be talking about this week not the rugby. Wouldn't it have made sense just to take him out of the public eye for this last 6N match at least?

Yep. Whether you think it was banter or racism, or somewhere in between, I think most would agree standing him down for one match to negate the inevitable bad PR would've been the sensible thing to do.

[Oakboy]

This isn't a good look for the sport. Now this is all every one will be talking about this week not the rugby. Wouldn't it have made sense just to take him out of the public eye for this last 6N match at least?

Yep. Whether you think it was banter or racism, or somewhere in between, I think most would agree standing him down for one match to negate the inevitable bad PR would've been the sensible thing to do.

Agreed but as there are (by definition now) no grounds for further disciplinary action, would it be a legal sanction? Dropping the player and pretending it was for any other reason would be somewhat hypocritical in a moral sense too. I'd just let the issue ride now, I think.

[WaspInWales]

Cardiff, 11th February 2017, 16:50 onwards.

Christ...that's going to be some fireworks display isn't it?

[Tre]

Cardiff, 11th February 2017, 16:50 onwards.

Christ...that's going to be some fireworks display isn't it?

They could burn some crosses so Joe Marler feels welcome

[twitchy]

Cardiff, 11th February 2017, 16:50 onwards.

Christ...that's going to be some fireworks display isn't it?

Absolutely. It's shame it has all boiled down to this stuff though. My mates who just watch england internationals all really enjoyed it. I think it's great having proper full blooded eng vs wales stuff, it's just keeping it all on the right side of the line.

[WaspInWales]

Cardiff, 11th February 2017, 16:50 onwards.

Christ...that's going to be some fireworks display isn't it?

They could burn some crosses so Joe Marler feels welcome

Nice.

Not sure health and safety would allow it though. There's a risk the England player's gowns could catch on fire.

I'm sure the pyrotechnic guys at the MS could do a fitting tribute though.

[Gloskarlos]

I struggle with the racism thing to be honest - all seems a bit precious to me and a worrying indictment of where society is going. Soon any comment taken in or out of context will be able to cause some political incorrectness upset to someone. I ask myself what could someone call me that would get me this wound up? can't think of much at all. He is after all - in his own words - from gypsy heritage. Its others who have built this up into an issue, maybe i'm a bit old fashioned here but a few thicker skins wouldn't go amiss in my view.

The forearm was stupid and deserves at least a game ban.

[Tre]

Cardiff, 11th February 2017, 16:50 onwards.

Christ...that's going to be some fireworks display isn't it?

They could burn some crosses so Joe Marler feels welcome

Nice.

Not sure health and safety would allow it though. There's a risk the England player's gowns could catch on fire.

I'm sure the pyrotechnic guys at the MS could do a fitting tribute though.

First we have the political correctness gone mad with the outrage over what he said, and now we have the health and safety gone mad where he can't even wear his gown to a good old fashioned lynching. Society has gone soft.

[twitchy]

I ask myself what could someone call me that would get me this wound up? can't think of much at all.

Just for the record what is your theory on why you think there isn't a word that can do that?

[Which Tyler]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35827133

lucky bastard.jpg

[Gloskarlos]

I ask myself what could someone call me that would get me this wound up? can't think of much at all.

Just for the record what is your theory on why you think there isn't a word that can do that?

Honestly? I don't know - There probably is, but not that I can think of that falls into this category.

So I am 42, getting a bit bald, english, christian, born in Manchester, lived most of my life in Glos.

Bald boy, old boy, christian boy, manc boy, tractor boy, posh boy.... aren't these all similar? no reaction at all from me there as they are all true. Only my perspective of course....

[WaspInWales]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35827133

lucky bastard.jpg

Virtual.

[Which Tyler]

Honestly? I don't know - There probably is, but not that I can think of that falls into this category.

So I am 42, getting a bit bald, english, christian, born in Manchester, lived most of my life in Glos.

Bald boy, old boy, christian boy, manc boy, tractor boy, posh boy.... aren't these all similar? no reaction at all from me there as they are all true. Only my perspective of course....

Then you are the answer to life, the universe and everything.

As for the insults - those may be derogatory; but not a one of them is racist. You have no legal protection from any of those insults (christian might though, not sure); and none are trigger-words referencing centuries of oppression. Essentially, you need to leave your privilege at the door on this one.
You may not consider Irish Travellers to be an ethnicity; but as a matter of UK law, you'd be wrong.

Equivalent words would be "Oi, black boy" or "Oi, gay boy!" - words not in themselves derogatory; but trigger words used in that manner.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Honestly? I don't know - There probably is, but not that I can think of that falls into this category.

So I am 42, getting a bit bald, english, christian, born in Manchester, lived most of my life in Glos.

Bald boy, old boy, christian boy, manc boy, tractor boy, posh boy.... aren't these all similar? no reaction at all from me there as they are all true. Only my perspective of course....

Then you are the answer to life, the universe and everything.

As for the insults - those may be derogatory; but not a one of them is racist. You have no legal protection from any of those insults (christian might though, not sure); and none are trigger-words referencing centuries of oppression. Essentially, you need to leave your privilege at the door on this one.
You may not consider Irish Travellers to be an ethnicity; but as a matter of UK law, you'd be wrong.

Equivalent words would be "Oi, black boy" or "Oi, gay boy!" - words not in themselves derogatory; but trigger words used in that manner.

This.

[Gloskarlos]

Just for the record what is your theory on why you think there isn't a word that can do that?

Honestly? I don't know - There probably is, but not that I can think of that falls into this category.

So I am 42, getting a bit bald, english, christian, born in Manchester, lived most of my life in Glos.

Bald boy, old boy, christian boy, manc boy, tractor boy, posh boy.... aren't these all similar? no reaction at all from me there as they are all true. Only my perspective of course....

Then you are the answer to life, the universe and everything.

As for the insults - those may be derogatory; but not a one of them is racist. You have no legal protection from any of those insults (christian might though, not sure); and none are trigger-words referencing centuries of oppression.
You may not consider Irish Travellers to be an ethnicity; but as a matter of UK law, you'd be wrong.

If Only..... I did feel wiser this birthday though.

OK - I could have included English boy, Saes boy and it wouldn't have made any difference, don't these count?

I struggle more with the fact that SL was pretty level headed about it, and Gatland - that should be the end of it, others weighing in baying for blood and starting a witch hunt is what starts wars and perpetuates an element of histrionic reaction rather than level headedness and reason. Centuries of oppression? every new born child no longer oppressed has to adopt this tarred historical brush automatically? I don't buy that. Appreciate I may be in the minority here.

Ah - I replied before you added 'privileged, black and gay' comments. Privileged? what a view point - you can find under and over privileged people from every walk of life. Why should this be a factor?

[twitchy]

I ask myself what could someone call me that would get me this wound up? can't think of much at all.

Just for the record what is your theory on why you think there isn't a word that can do that?

Honestly? I don't know - There probably is, but not that I can think of that falls into this category.

So I am 42, getting a bit bald, english, christian, born in Manchester, lived most of my life in Glos.

Bald boy, old boy, christian boy, manc boy, tractor boy, posh boy.... aren't these all similar? no reaction at all from me there as they are all true. Only my perspective of course....

All of the things you mention are "normal" that is why there isn't a word that you find insulting that describes you. You have never been denied a house or a job or entry too a pub/club because of any of these things.

[Gloskarlos]

Just for the record what is your theory on why you think there isn't a word that can do that?

Honestly? I don't know - There probably is, but not that I can think of that falls into this category.

So I am 42, getting a bit bald, english, christian, born in Manchester, lived most of my life in Glos.

Bald boy, old boy, christian boy, manc boy, tractor boy, posh boy.... aren't these all similar? no reaction at all from me there as they are all true. Only my perspective of course....

All of the things you mention are "normal" that is why there isn't a word that you find insulting that describes you. You have never been denied a house or a job or entry too a pub/club because of any of these things.

Has Samson Lee? this is the point I am clearly making badly.

[twitchy]

Honestly? I don't know - There probably is, but not that I can think of that falls into this category.

So I am 42, getting a bit bald, english, christian, born in Manchester, lived most of my life in Glos.

Bald boy, old boy, christian boy, manc boy, tractor boy, posh boy.... aren't these all similar? no reaction at all from me there as they are all true. Only my perspective of course....

All of the things you mention are "normal" that is why there isn't a word that you find insulting that describes you. You have never been denied a house or a job or entry too a pub/club because of any of these things.

Has Samson Lee? this is the point I am clearly making badly.

I have no idea if he has personally but obviously travellers have.

[Puja]

If Only..... I did feel wiser this birthday though.

OK - I could have included English boy, Saes boy and it wouldn't have made any difference, don't these count?

I struggle more with the fact that SL was pretty level headed about it, and Gatland - that should be the end of it, others weighing in baying for blood and starting a witch hunt is what starts wars and perpetuates an element of histrionic reaction rather than level headedness and reason. Centuries of oppression? every new born child no longer oppressed has to adopt this tarred historical brush automatically? I don't buy that. Appreciate I may be in the minority here.

Saes boy isn't nice, but I'm willing to bet that you've never been refused service for being English. That's the difference - being white, English, male, etc, it's very unlikely that you've ever experienced discrimination for anything immutable that you are and so it's very hard to understand the issues faced by those who do, because you don't see them.

SL may have been publically level-headed about it, but that doesn't make it okay. Quite apart from the fact that this was very public and the signal sent by it being waved off is that it's okay to denigrate gypsies, I would note that Lee might not be as sanguine as he seems. I've received homophobic "banter" in rugby and it definitely did hurt. But I was left with a choice of either making a big fuss and thus being the guy who did make a fuss "over a bit of banter, he didn't mean anything by it, why are you making a big deal over nothing," or I could laugh it off and say I wasn't bothered. He probably wants to dismiss it as quickly as possible because he's fairly certain he wouldn't get any support from fans or governing bodies if he did want to make an issue of it. Looks like that was the right choice as well.

Puja

[Puja]

Has Samson Lee? this is the point I am clearly making badly.

Don't know about him, but there was a story in the paper the other day about one of his cousins going to see him make his debut for Wales and then trying to go out on the town afterwards, only to be turned away from three nightclubs because the didn't want any "gyppos".

Puja

[Nightynight]

Outside of the UK and you'll get plenty of racism for being white and British

[Oakboy]

So what if Itoje had used the expression 'white boy' (not that I am suggesting he would). Would there be all the fuss?

[Which Tyler]

OK - I could have included English boy, Saes boy and it wouldn't have made any difference, don't these count?

I struggle more with the fact that SL was pretty level headed about it, and Gatland - that should be the end of it, others weighing in baying for blood and starting a witch hunt is what starts wars and perpetuates an element of histrionic reaction rather than level headedness and reason. Centuries of oppression? every new born child no longer oppressed has to adopt this tarred historical brush automatically? I don't buy that. Appreciate I may be in the minority here.

Ah - I replied before you added 'privileged, black and gay' comments. Privileged? what a view point - you can find under and over privileged people from every walk of life. Why should this be a factor?

Saes boy - again not; being English is not being part of a protected minority.

Whilst I kinda agree here; and feel that there is a time to move on from the bigotry of the past; that time is not yet for skin colour, sexual orientation or a lack of Y chromosome; pretty sure it's not yet for the traveller community either. Equally, it's not up to "us" to tell "them" when enough is enough.

In these terms you are a member of the most privileged "people" of all time. You are a white*, straight*, Western European* male*. of course there are under-privileged white straight Western European males out there; but they're not under-privileged BECAUSE they are are white, or straight, or Western European or male. "Privilege" is a the very specific term used in these instances.


* I assume.

[Nightynight]

Has Samson Lee? this is the point I am clearly making badly.

Don't know about him, but there was a story in the paper the other day about one of his cousins going to see him make his debut for Wales and then trying to go out on the town afterwards, only to be turned away from three nightclubs because the didn't want any "gyppos".

Puja

I lived in west London for 5yrs the local cemetery was a 'gypsy' one, every time a 'gypsy' funeral was held the local police rang all the pubs in the area to warn them to close until it was over. The few occasions when a pub let them in, they smashed the place up fighting amongst themselves... every single time!


weren't allowed in Why? because they have a reputation for starting fights. Its like nobody can have a balanced view on things anymore! is racism or reputation?

[Which Tyler]

Outside of the UK and you'll get plenty of racism for being white and British

Pretty sure that what happens outside of the UK isn't particularly relevant to UK law.
"Outside of the UK" you could* be beheaded for carrying a little marijuana.
"Outside of the UK" it's your fault if you get raped, and can be stoned to death as punishment.

* but are highly unlikely to be, in part because of privilege

So what if Itoje had used the expression 'white boy' (not that I am suggesting he would). Would there be all the fuss?

There'd be fuss, but probably not this much.
White people have not facet centuries of oppression because of the colour of their skin. White people are not part of a protected minority group. Like it or not, Gypsies are, and thus derogatory remarks about being gypsie are on the same legal footing as derogatory remarks about being black, gay or female.