Cue firestorm

[Gloskarlos]

I'll give up.

I'll wager there are many middle aged white British people who aren't given jobs etc. or allowed into pubs or certain establishments for being under educated, from known or underprivileged families or backgrounds etc. overseas this is more often the case. Not the same by any stretch admittedly, but I was personally told that certain positions would not be available to me whilst growing up at school due to my coming from a broken family. Lets be careful with who is privileged and who isn't, as this is all down to perspective.

My argument was that an individual's own view should be the most important element of this rather than what every other person from a similar heritage thinks by jumping on the bandwagon. I accept Puja, that he may not be being genuine with his comments - in which case my point is arguably nullified.

[Nightynight]

"Outside of the UK" you could* be beheaded for carrying a little marijuana.
"Outside of the UK" it's your fault if you get raped, and can be stoned to death as punishment.

* but are highly unlikely to be, in part because of privilege"





I give up and on the welsh board thread as well...

[p/d]

I'll give up.

.

Best thing Karlos. There are those keen to jump on anything and there others who see it as a heat of the moment exchange by a not so bright person. Marler has no history of 'racism', nor has he stood by his comment. I understand a full apology was made at half time and accepted by Lee. (the only person who should have been upset/offended by the comment). Mind you being called a boy would fire me up a bit.

[Digby]

Mind you being called a boy would fire me up a bit.

And a smalltown boy?

[Gloskarlos]

Mind you being called a boy would fire me up a bit.

And a smalltown boy?

Better than an uptown girl.

[Sandydragon]

I ask myself what could someone call me that would get me this wound up? can't think of much at all.

Just for the record what is your theory on why you think there isn't a word that can do that?

Honestly? I don't know - There probably is, but not that I can think of that falls into this category.

So I am 42, getting a bit bald, english, christian, born in Manchester, lived most of my life in Glos.

Bald boy, old boy, christian boy, manc boy, tractor boy, posh boy.... aren't these all similar? no reaction at all from me there as they are all true. Only my perspective of course....

To be fair mate, none of those fall into the descriptions under various UK legislation for what constitutes racist comment. There was no need for 6N Committee to discuss whether the comment was racist, the game was played in England and English law would apply - the term used was racist. They have ignored a clear offence and sent a very bad message.

[Sandydragon]

I'll give up.

.

Best thing Karlos. There are those keen to jump on anything and there others who see it as a heat of the moment exchange by a not so bright person. Marler has no history of 'racism', nor has he stood by his comment. I understand a full apology was made at half time and accepted by Lee. (the only person who should have been upset/offended by the comment). Mind you being called a boy would fire me up a bit.

Context would be important though. Calling Itoje boy whilst affecting a Southern US accent could be considered racist, using the term in another context might not.

If this was just between the 2 players then the apology would be enough in my opinion. But as millions heard it, that simply isn't enough. Marler needs to be heading to the news agents and buying himself some lottery tickets given the amount of luck he is currently enjoying.

[p/d]

Mind you being called a boy would fire me up a bit.

And a smalltown boy?

on many levels.

then there is Sk8er Boi .................(one for Skidger)

[Gloskarlos]

Just for the record what is your theory on why you think there isn't a word that can do that?

Honestly? I don't know - There probably is, but not that I can think of that falls into this category.

So I am 42, getting a bit bald, english, christian, born in Manchester, lived most of my life in Glos.

Bald boy, old boy, christian boy, manc boy, tractor boy, posh boy.... aren't these all similar? no reaction at all from me there as they are all true. Only my perspective of course....

To be fair mate, none of those fall into the descriptions under various UK legislation for what constitutes racist comment. There was no need for 6N Committee to discuss whether the comment was racist, the game was played in England and English law would apply - the term used was racist. They have ignored a clear offence and sent a very bad message.

Yes I get it that that is the view most people seem to have adopted. I have given up as per a few posts ago.

[Digby]

Honestly? I don't know - There probably is, but not that I can think of that falls into this category.

So I am 42, getting a bit bald, english, christian, born in Manchester, lived most of my life in Glos.

Bald boy, old boy, christian boy, manc boy, tractor boy, posh boy.... aren't these all similar? no reaction at all from me there as they are all true. Only my perspective of course....

To be fair mate, none of those fall into the descriptions under various UK legislation for what constitutes racist comment. There was no need for 6N Committee to discuss whether the comment was racist, the game was played in England and English law would apply - the term used was racist. They have ignored a clear offence and sent a very bad message.

Yes I get it that that is the view most people seem to have adopted. I have given up as per a few posts ago.

It might be most people that are complaining about the issue, I suspect most couldn't care much if at all. He's damn lucky to get away with that driving forearm however.

[Digby]

Mind you being called a boy would fire me up a bit.

And a smalltown boy?

on many levels.

then there is Sk8er Boi .................(one for Skidger)

possibly more a Rude Boy

[Sandydragon]

To be fair mate, none of those fall into the descriptions under various UK legislation for what constitutes racist comment. There was no need for 6N Committee to discuss whether the comment was racist, the game was played in England and English law would apply - the term used was racist. They have ignored a clear offence and sent a very bad message.

Yes I get it that that is the view most people seem to have adopted. I have given up as per a few posts ago.

It might be most people that are complaining about the issue, I suspect most couldn't care much if at all. He's damn lucky to get away with that driving forearm however.

Im more concerned with the integrity of our sport to be honest. If Lee isn't hugely offended then Im not too concerned over the particular insult; although if members of the travelling community want to take offense for what they heard on the TV then that's their right; Im not going to take it for them.

What concerns me most is that a clear offence (a racist comment under English Law) was deemed to be unworthy of punishment by the competitions disciplinary panel. That sends a terrible message, both inside and outside of the sport.

[Which Tyler]

Im more concerned with the integrity of our sport to be honest. If Lee isn't hugely offended then Im not too concerned over the particular insult; although if members of the traveling community want to take offense for what they heard on the TV then that's their right; Im not going to take it for them.

What concerns me most is that a clear offense (a racist comment under English Law) was deemed to be unworthy of punishment by the competitions disciplinary panel. That sends a terrible message, both inside and outside of the sport.

Basically this; and an opportunity to take a stance on casual racism, and educate people.

My personal opinion has changed by 180* over the last couple of days. Initially I felt it was a nothingness; I've said worse and had worse said about me; and certainly felt far worse things about the traveling community.
This event made me stop and think though, so I educated myself a bit more - did a little googling and discovered that they are protected by law; and that yes; there's a lot of... dislike of their community (including by myself)y; and that yes, it makes sense that they be protected.
Whether I consider them a race/ethnicity or just a lifestyle choice (former for Romani, latter for travelers) isn't really relevant, they get the same protection under law. Either way, they do seem to receive a fair bit of abuse, and indeed, discrimination.

Now none of that is going to stop me making judgements on their lifestyle, or being pissed off and extra-cautious when they make camp on the village green & neighbouring fields. It's unlikely to stop me making judgements on individuals based on the group as a whole - but that's on me; I will, however, try to keep such thoughts to myself. Who knows; in 30 years time maybe I'll stand a chance to not be that racist arsehole in the old folks' home, who just can't move with the times and accept that travelers have as much right to be where they want to as anyone else.

[Mikey Brown]

Interesting how many people have levelled out on this one, from both sides. Though I feel it wasn't intended as anything more than a wind-up, and it's good that he apologised, I think you make some really good points there WT. I think standing him down from Saturday may have been the best move.

[Gloskarlos]

Education rather than escalation - absolutely.

[Sandydragon]

Interesting how many people have levelled out on this one, from both sides. Though I feel it wasn't intended as anything more than a wind-up, and it's good that he apologised, I think you make some really good points there WT. I think standing him down from Saturday may have been the best move.

I wonder if his move to the bench was a reflection of the amount of time it was taking to resolve? Regardless of opinions on guilt etc, it shouldn't take that long to make a decision. Jones must have been going nuts trying to train the team this week - perhaps the elevation of Mako was that he assumed Marler would be banned and better to make that call early?

If Francis can be banned for 8 weeks so quickly, I find it odd that Marler and England were kept waiting so long for a decision. It doesn't help credibility.

[Puja]

Basically this; and an opportunity to take a stance on casual racism, and educate people.

My personal opinion has changed by 180* over the last couple of days. Initially I felt it was a nothingness; I've said worse and had worse said about me; and certainly felt far worse things about the traveling community.
This event made me stop and think though, so I educated myself a bit more - did a little googling and discovered that they are protected by law; and that yes; there's a lot of... dislike of their community (including by myself)y; and that yes, it makes sense that they be protected.
Whether I consider them a race/ethnicity or just a lifestyle choice (former for Romani, latter for travelers) isn't really relevant, they get the same protection under law. Either way, they do seem to receive a fair bit of abuse, and indeed, discrimination.

Now none of that is going to stop me making judgements on their lifestyle, or being pissed off and extra-cautious when they make camp on the village green & neighbouring fields. It's unlikely to stop me making judgements on individuals based on the group as a whole - but that's on me; I will, however, try to keep such thoughts to myself. Who knows; in 30 years time maybe I'll stand a chance to not be that racist arsehole in the old folks' home, who just can't move with the times and accept that travelers have as much right to be where they want to as anyone else.

Well said; I don't think there's too much to add to the debate after that.

Puja

[Oakboy]

All I will say is that I have had some experience of gypsies/travellers and I find it hard to accept that they should expect the law of this land to be mobilised over one phrase when, as a group, they so often ignore the law when it suits them.

[Pie Man]

Has Samson Lee? this is the point I am clearly making badly.

Don't know about him, but there was a story in the paper the other day about one of his cousins going to see him make his debut for Wales and then trying to go out on the town afterwards, only to be turned away from three nightclubs because the didn't want any "gyppos".

Puja

I lived in west London for 5yrs the local cemetery was a 'gypsy' one, every time a 'gypsy' funeral was held the local police rang all the pubs in the area to warn them to close until it was over. The few occasions when a pub let them in, they smashed the place up fighting amongst themselves... every single time!


weren't allowed in Why? because they have a reputation for starting fights. Its like nobody can have a balanced view on things anymore! is racism or reputation?

Indeed. One of my local pubs had to ban them because they would get p!ssed (fine), argue amongst themselves and then go outside and start shooting their guns in the air (not so fine). The only one allowed in is the "top man" and his presence keeps all the others out.

I wonder if many of the posters have ever met a gypsy, or had any first-hand experience of them. The ones I've met honestly wouldn't care less about that comment - they'd love it probably.

[belgarion]

OK - I could have included English boy, Saes boy and it wouldn't have made any difference, don't these count?

I struggle more with the fact that SL was pretty level headed about it, and Gatland - that should be the end of it, others weighing in baying for blood and starting a witch hunt is what starts wars and perpetuates an element of histrionic reaction rather than level headedness and reason. Centuries of oppression? every new born child no longer oppressed has to adopt this tarred historical brush automatically? I don't buy that. Appreciate I may be in the minority here.

Ah - I replied before you added 'privileged, black and gay' comments. Privileged? what a view point - you can find under and over privileged people from every walk of life. Why should this be a factor?

Saes boy - again not; being English is not being part of a protected minority.

Whilst I kinda agree here; and feel that there is a time to move on from the bigotry of the past; that time is not yet for skin colour, sexual orientation or a lack of Y chromosome; pretty sure it's not yet for the traveller community either. Equally, it's not up to "us" to tell "them" when enough is enough.

In these terms you are a member of the most privileged "people" of all time. You are a white*, straight*, Western European* male*. of course there are under-privileged white straight Western European males out there; but they're not under-privileged BECAUSE they are are white, or straight, or Western European or male. "Privilege" is a the very specific term used in these instances.


* I assume.

See this is the probelm I have with all the equality/abuse laws. Why can't I be offended to be told I'm a 'Saes white boy' in an
insulting manner by someone just because im in the majority. If someone finds something offensive the law should apply
equally whether that person is a in a majority group or a minority group

[Puja]

{Mod hat}

Guys - while I will agree that a lot of interactions with travellers are not agreeable, the point of them being protected under racism laws is that they shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush and you shouldn't assign bad behaviour on the part of some to the entire demographic.

We are a little close to the kind of language that might get absolutely ignored by the 6N committee. Feel free to share examples of particular travellers being awful; let's make sure not to extrapolate that to the whole group.

{/mod hat}

[Puja]

See this is the probelm I have with all the equality/abuse laws. Why can't I be offended to be told I'm a 'Saes white boy' in an
insulting manner by someone just because im in the majority. If someone finds something offensive the law should apply
equally whether that person is a in a majority group or a minority group

You certainly can be offended and the law does apply equally. There's no restriction that says that you aren't protected from racism under the law.

In a social context, people are more likely to be concerned about minority groups above you because the attitude is taken that the deck is stacked so far in your favour that an insult to you won't have as much of an impact on your life as an insult to someone in a marginalised group. It may not seem fair, but on the bright side you do have the skin colour that's considered default in this country and are unlikely to be addressed as "white boy" anyway, so it probably won't come up.

Puja

[WaspInWales]

Gotta love Eddie. The whole world is starting to hate us again

[Oakboy]

Puja, I'll back out of this now. I think most offences (i.e. offences to the largest number of people) are caused by gypsies/travellers rather than to them.

That makes a lot of people a bit light on sympathy to them. I'll not bore you with my several experiences apart from the most recent. I was on a jury for a case of armed robbery. Lots of physical evidence could not be obtained (although there was witness evidence that it existed and as to where it was located) because the camp where the defendants lived verged on being a no-go area even for the police. Some are outside the law.

[p/d]

Ref's mic, get rid of it. I'm sick and tired of commentator apologising to the viewing public for bad language......and at the same time take the c**t on the tannoy out to the car park and strap him to the fecker who thought pyrotechnics a good idea