Bath vs Saracens

[Digby]

, if nothing else through injury and age- Hartley will be 33, Brown 34, Robshaw 33, Haskell 34, Care 32, Teo 32....and most bar Teo have a lot of miles in their legs now.

And they're all okay, but they're not anything special either. There's perhaps only Robshaw in that group I think more likely than not to be in the 23 come the WC mind

[Banquo]

Second in the world, with consecutive 6N wins, tour whitewashes over Aus and Arg, and only one loss under Eddie's management?

Puja

Ah ok, so I imagined those poor performances in the 6N, the loss to Ireland, and the fairly obvious holes that need filling in our team, that I think you have been part of critiquing. Or are you being deliberately disingenuous?

Sarcasm will get you nowh.... Okay, actually, sarcasm is a valuable part of how we communicate on here, but even so.

"Where we are" isn't perfect, as you've pointed out, but it is still pretty damn good and I'm not sure it warrants making large numbers of changes.

Puja

I think you may have started that sarcasm loop, with your own little jab, but hey,, we are resilient are we not?

Given age and some competency issues, I would hope/think 5 places are up for grabs at least outside the core of the 6N starters. "pretty damn good' is only a start point, even accepting that to be true.

[Banquo]

, if nothing else through injury and age- Hartley will be 33, Brown 34, Robshaw 33, Haskell 34, Care 32, Teo 32....and most bar Teo have a lot of miles in their legs now.

And they're all okay, but they're not anything special either. There's perhaps only Robshaw in that group I think more likely than not to be in the 23 come the WC mind

That too, and that's not an exhaustive list, just the ones who likely will fall away 'naturally'.

[Digby]

, if nothing else through injury and age- Hartley will be 33, Brown 34, Robshaw 33, Haskell 34, Care 32, Teo 32....and most bar Teo have a lot of miles in their legs now.

And they're all okay, but they're not anything special either. There's perhaps only Robshaw in that group I think more likely than not to be in the 23 come the WC mind

That too, and that's not an exhaustive list, just the ones who likely will fall away 'naturally'.

Eddie's reaching an interesting point. Plenty of players not getting a look in which will be big topics of debate at their various clubs, and perhaps a test group sliding a little towards being comfortable. Results are going to colour how it's viewed, but maybe 1-2 changes buys Eddie some belief in the wider AP you can play your way into the England team, and keeps the fear in the current group.

[Oakboy]

I give up, how many?

Sarky sod!

We all know there is significant room for improvement. I just don't think Eddie has much inclination to change many players. The young (or old) pretenders are simply not enough of an improvement.

tricky to tell unless you try. Looks like he has written off the 25-29 year olds who haven't yet made it though.

From the 2017 6N, it was still 2 and a bit years til the next RWC, and a decent chunk will have changed by them, if nothing else through injury and age- Hartley will be 33, Brown 34, Robshaw 33, Haskell 34, Care 32, Teo 32....and most bar Teo have a lot of miles in their legs now.

Yes that's reasonable - 6 players, two of whom, Care and T'eo, are not regular starters. I think Hartley and Robshaw will remain in the starting XV at the RWC, fitness permitting. I'd not be surprised if the other 4 are in the squad even if only as bench or back-up. That's my point.

I'd not make quite a few selections that I'm convinced Eddie will. It was interesting listening to the BT commentary team yesterday on the subject of Robson, for example. They suggested he was 3rd choice SH despite Eddie's Argentinian selections. I will be fascinated to see whether Eddie sticks to his no-Lions selection for the AIs. Maybe he has an anti-Lions agenda? Or, is he trying to influence the clubs? It makes no sense to me if the players are starting each weekend for their clubs.

[Banquo]

Sarky sod!

We all know there is significant room for improvement. I just don't think Eddie has much inclination to change many players. The young (or old) pretenders are simply not enough of an improvement.

tricky to tell unless you try. Looks like he has written off the 25-29 year olds who haven't yet made it though.

From the 2017 6N, it was still 2 and a bit years til the next RWC, and a decent chunk will have changed by them, if nothing else through injury and age- Hartley will be 33, Brown 34, Robshaw 33, Haskell 34, Care 32, Teo 32....and most bar Teo have a lot of miles in their legs now.

Yes that's reasonable - 6 players, two of whom, Care and T'eo, are not regular starters. I think Hartley and Robshaw will remain in the starting XV at the RWC, fitness permitting. I'd not be surprised if the other 4 are in the squad even if only as bench or back-up. That's my point.

I'd not make quite a few selections that I'm convinced Eddie will. It was interesting listening to the BT commentary team yesterday on the subject of Robson, for example. They suggested he was 3rd choice SH despite Eddie's Argentinian selections. I will be fascinated to see whether Eddie sticks to his no-Lions selection for the AIs. Maybe he has an anti-Lions agenda? Or, is he trying to influence the clubs? It makes no sense to me if the players are starting each weekend for their clubs.

I think he'd be nuts having many, if any of those names in the squad, given age, mileage and ability; and these are just the low hanging fruit from a ruling out/change point of view. I'd think a few more will be gone from the 6N 2017 23. That'd be roughly a third, plus almost certainly a couple will be injured out.

Eddie will likely call up the Lions, but not use them in an extended EPS, which in itself will be interesting in terms of club relations....though he may have stated what he will do already, and I've missed it?

[Oakboy]

tricky to tell unless you try. Looks like he has written off the 25-29 year olds who haven't yet made it though.

From the 2017 6N, it was still 2 and a bit years til the next RWC, and a decent chunk will have changed by them, if nothing else through injury and age- Hartley will be 33, Brown 34, Robshaw 33, Haskell 34, Care 32, Teo 32....and most bar Teo have a lot of miles in their legs now.

Yes that's reasonable - 6 players, two of whom, Care and T'eo, are not regular starters. I think Hartley and Robshaw will remain in the starting XV at the RWC, fitness permitting. I'd not be surprised if the other 4 are in the squad even if only as bench or back-up. That's my point.

I'd not make quite a few selections that I'm convinced Eddie will. It was interesting listening to the BT commentary team yesterday on the subject of Robson, for example. They suggested he was 3rd choice SH despite Eddie's Argentinian selections. I will be fascinated to see whether Eddie sticks to his no-Lions selection for the AIs. Maybe he has an anti-Lions agenda? Or, is he trying to influence the clubs? It makes no sense to me if the players are starting each weekend for their clubs.

I think he'd be nuts having many, if any of those names in the squad, given age, mileage and ability; and these are just the low hanging fruit from a ruling out/change point of view. I'd think a few more will be gone from the 6N 2017 23. That'd be roughly a third, plus almost certainly a couple will be injured out.

Eddie will likely call up the Lions, but not use them in an extended EPS, which in itself will be interesting in terms of club relations....though he may have stated what he will do already, and I've missed it?

I think Eddie is the ultimate pragmatist. He won't care about age. These guys have the shirts. 'Outplay them or miss out', appears to be his message. I'd ditch loads of them - Care, Youngs, Brown, Haskell, T'eo, Cole etc. - but I don't think Eddie will.

[Stom]

tricky to tell unless you try. Looks like he has written off the 25-29 year olds who haven't yet made it though.

From the 2017 6N, it was still 2 and a bit years til the next RWC, and a decent chunk will have changed by them, if nothing else through injury and age- Hartley will be 33, Brown 34, Robshaw 33, Haskell 34, Care 32, Teo 32....and most bar Teo have a lot of miles in their legs now.

Yes that's reasonable - 6 players, two of whom, Care and T'eo, are not regular starters. I think Hartley and Robshaw will remain in the starting XV at the RWC, fitness permitting. I'd not be surprised if the other 4 are in the squad even if only as bench or back-up. That's my point.

I'd not make quite a few selections that I'm convinced Eddie will. It was interesting listening to the BT commentary team yesterday on the subject of Robson, for example. They suggested he was 3rd choice SH despite Eddie's Argentinian selections. I will be fascinated to see whether Eddie sticks to his no-Lions selection for the AIs. Maybe he has an anti-Lions agenda? Or, is he trying to influence the clubs? It makes no sense to me if the players are starting each weekend for their clubs.

I think he'd be nuts having many, if any of those names in the squad, given age, mileage and ability; and these are just the low hanging fruit from a ruling out/change point of view. I'd think a few more will be gone from the 6N 2017 23. That'd be roughly a third, plus almost certainly a couple will be injured out.

Eddie will likely call up the Lions, but not use them in an extended EPS, which in itself will be interesting in terms of club relations....though he may have stated what he will do already, and I've missed it?

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Launchbury
Lawes
Itoje
Haskell
Vunipola
Youngs
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Joseph
Watson
Brown
George
Mako
Sinckler
Wood
Hughes
Care
Te'o
Nowell

So, highlighted are those players I think are under risk from the 23. Rightly or wrongly.

George will surely displace Hartley as soon as possible. Is Hartley really the right man for #16? I think LCD or even Taylor could come into play.

Kruis will come back. Unless we go for that false 6 again (with Robshaw back, I don't see it), 1 of these 4 misses out...

Haskell looks spent. I think his spot is under threat from Underhill and Wilson.

Brown cannot run away from father time. Watson is playing 15 for Bath, freeing up a wing spot for May and/or Nowell.

Wood was in as a stop gap. That spot is now Wilson or Underhills, but in this 23, it's Lawes'.

Hughes could miss out if Eddie goes for a flanker on the bench. It could happen, and Wilson or one of the Currys could get a spot. But he's the most likely of my highlighted lot to keep his spot.

Te'o has looked the part, and offers a plan B to the playmakers. But if Tuilagi manages to get and stay fit, I think that'd be it for poor Ben.

Nowell...I said earlier he could get a wing spot thanks to Brown's dropping, but he could equally miss out too.

So up to 8, but more likely 5 changes to the last 23.

[Banquo]

We were talking about 2019 squad or had you picked that up? But I'd see 5 + before then, due to age and injury, plus some must go not being up to it, I would hope

[Spiffy]

Lawes played very well at 6 for Saints at the weekend. Even when Itoje has been selected with a 6 on his back for England, Lawes has packed down at blindside. Would not be surprised to see Eddie Jones give him a proper run at 6 (number and all) with Itoje/Launchbury/Kruis covering lock. I know that Lawes has been tried as a starting 6 in the past, with limited success, but his all round improvement in the past year or so has been tremendous, especially in the rugby intelligence department and in cleaning up his discipline.

[Stom]

We were talking about 2019 squad or had you picked that up? But I'd see 5 + before then, due to age and injury, plus some must go not being up to it, I would hope

I was talking about 2019.

Interesting how the changes that could happen now are also the ones that are most likely for 2019. The rest of the 23 is pretty good to go...

We're very lucky in that respect. If Collier was Australian, how many caps do you think he'd have? And he's our - at best - 4th choice THP.

[Banquo]

We were talking about 2019 squad or had you picked that up? But I'd see 5 + before then, due to age and injury, plus some must go not being up to it, I would hope

I was talking about 2019.

Interesting how the changes that could happen now are also the ones that are most likely for 2019. The rest of the 23 is pretty good to go...

We're very lucky in that respect. If Collier was Australian, how many caps do you think he'd have? And he's our - at best - 4th choice THP.

I'd like to think both Youngs and Care will be gone by 2019, Care certainly will be up against the clock as well as decision making. and although props can last longer than most, Cole has an awful lot of miles, Lions tour mini revival notwithstanding.

[Stom]

We were talking about 2019 squad or had you picked that up? But I'd see 5 + before then, due to age and injury, plus some must go not being up to it, I would hope

I was talking about 2019.

Interesting how the changes that could happen now are also the ones that are most likely for 2019. The rest of the 23 is pretty good to go...

We're very lucky in that respect. If Collier was Australian, how many caps do you think he'd have? And he's our - at best - 4th choice THP.

I'd like to think both Youngs and Care will be gone by 2019, Care certainly will be up against the clock as well as decision making. and although props can last longer than most, Cole has an awful lot of miles, Lions tour mini revival notwithstanding.

I think Care will survive. I also think Cole will survive. I'm not sure the potential 9s or 3rs will show enough of an improvement for Eddie before then.

But that could change if someone has a stormer before then.

[jngf]

Lawes played very well at 6 for Saints at the weekend. Even when Itoje has been selected with a 6 on his back for England, Lawes has packed down at blindside. Would not be surprised to see Eddie Jones give him a proper run at 6 (number and all) with Itoje/Launchbury/Kruis covering lock. I know that Lawes has been tried as a starting 6 in the past, with limited success, but his all round improvement in the past year or so has been tremendous, especially in the rugby intelligence department and in cleaning up his discipline.

I would agree that Lawes is much more convincing as a back up 6 to Robshaw than Itoje who seems better viewed as an out and out tight forward (albeit with opensidesque fetching skills ). In fact Lawes and Launchbury seem to be more positionally versatile, and frankly more impactful in the loose, than Itoje and Kruis, who perhaps are the better scrummagers than the former two and look better as starters than impact players at test level. Injury notwithstanding I suspect Eddie will pick Itoje and Kruis to start at lock in AIs and bring in Launch and Lawes from the bench (rather than pick a back row on the bench).

[kk67]

I hope the Argentina tests will prove to have been a turning point for Launch' and Eddies relationship.

[Banquo]

I was talking about 2019.

Interesting how the changes that could happen now are also the ones that are most likely for 2019. The rest of the 23 is pretty good to go...

We're very lucky in that respect. If Collier was Australian, how many caps do you think he'd have? And he's our - at best - 4th choice THP.

I'd like to think both Youngs and Care will be gone by 2019, Care certainly will be up against the clock as well as decision making. and although props can last longer than most, Cole has an awful lot of miles, Lions tour mini revival notwithstanding.

I think Care will survive. I also think Cole will survive. I'm not sure the potential 9s or 3rs will show enough of an improvement for Eddie before then.

But that could change if someone has a stormer before then.

we'll see...I just think we will see more change than being projected- in Cole's case, its not about ability, more about durability- he simply plays too much....